TX - Uvalde; Robb Elementary, 19 children and 3 adults killed, shooter dead, 24 MAY 2022 #3

MrsWatson

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A suspect is in custody after a shooting incident at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, left at least two dead and injured 14 people, including students, authorities said.

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PLEASE CONTINUE THE DISCUSSION HERE WHILE RESPECTING THE VICTIMS, THEIR FAMILIES, THE TERMS OF SERVICE, and YOUR FELLOW WS MEMBERS.
 
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CocoChanel

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ADMIN NOTE:
In the face of such unspeakable tragedy, Websleuths tries to be a place where members can come to get factual information while working through the emotions that are brought forth by this type of horrific news. Websleuths has long stated that generalized debate about society’s ills does not belong here because it cannot be solved through discussion on a true crime forum. If there was a possibility that point/counterpoint arguments on our forum would prevent the next tragedy, Websleuths would allow it. Those critical discussions should absolutely take place, but not here. Please do not debate guns, politics, mental illness, inherent evil, or other generalized topics that can only lead to conflict on this thread. Thank you for respecting Websleuths guidelines on this. May love and light lead the way in this dark time.
 

Sillybilly

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ADMIN NOTE:

Stick to discussing the specifics of THIS case. This thread is not the place for general gun control discussion or debate.

Do not introduce the emotional, political, hot-button topic of gun control in general. It leads nowhere other than to ultimately derail the thread.

Tricia kept gun control discussion off Websleuths for a long time and even tried opening a gun control debate thread. Six month later, six threads later, the discussion was stopped because as usual it led to bickering among members. Gun control legislation is never going to be resolved through discussion at Websleuths.

The law right now is what the law is. Members may discuss those laws as they relate to this case specifically (i.e. what are the current laws that relate to this case, to the killer, how was he able to ...). Other posts and opinions that attempt to take this thread into the future political realm of what should or should not be will be removed and members may experience a temporary or permanent loss of posting privileges.

If you value your participation in this thread, please do not introduce general gun control debate.

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Friday Fan

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They are seeking public input before writing legislation. Of course, they never listen!

This does not sound like an investigation to me.

I've testified before: Public testimony is limited to two minutes, if submitting written testimony, you must make 20 copies

These are standard senate instructions
 

Wise Old Owl

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They are seeking public input before writing legislation. Of course, they never listen!

This does not sound like an investigation to me.

I've testified before: Public testimony is limited to two minutes, if submitting written testimony, you must make 20 copies

These are standard senate instructions
You know - it does sound like a more general meeting and not about presenting anything pertinent to this investigation - although from that other link - where the news people are talking to that reporter and how he is going to be there tomorrow and what they are going to present. IDK? We'll just have to wait and see....



JMHO
 

sds71

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Tomorrow should be an interesting day. From what I pulled out above - it seems PA was in command. That LE did INDEED have the firepower AND the shields needed to breach. Also, we had heard that PA called the shooter on his cell - so that is now back in play. AND that PA had WONDERED - wondered? if a sniper could have taken the shooter out through a window!!! I pretty much thought the shooter had closed the blinds on the windows so LE couldn't see in.



Does anyone know if this hearing is going to be telecast? I would love to have a link if they are going to televise it.
Office of the Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick

@LtGovTX

Tomorrow at 9 AM, the TX Senate begins public hearings on latest DPS investigations on Uvalde & other topics. The Senate believes all testimony should be in the open. The families & the public have a right to know. Tomorrow, watch them live here: https://senate.texas.gov/av-live.php
 

Seattle1

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Multiple police officers stood in a hallway at Robb Elementary School armed with rifles and at least one ballistic shield within nine minutes of a gunman arriving at the campus, according to documents reviewed by the American-Statesman, a devastating new revelation deepening questions about why police didn’t act faster to stop the shooter who killed 19 children and two teachers.

Even as officers with high-powered weapons and ballistic shields massed inside the blue and green hallway, the gunman could be heard firing rounds — including at 12:21 p.m. — 29 minutes before officers entered the classroom and killed him.

Investigators say the latest information indicates officers had more than enough firepower and protection to take down the gunman long before they finally did.

Authorities have produced the most extensive timeline yet since the 18-year-old armed with an AR-15 walked into the Uvalde school on May 24, shattering a South Texas town and reigniting the gun debate nationwide.

Much of the new information is expected to be presented at a Texas Senate hearing Tuesday, the first of two consecutive days of hearings at the Capitol that will give members of the public their first opportunity to address lawmakers on gun violence and related issues.

State Sen. Robert Nichols, R-Jacksonville, chairman of the committee, said he expects to cast "a wide net" to examine a complex issue and develop recommendations to present to the full Senate.



AP wanted the public to believe they had no shields, and why he contacted Border Patrol to supply the same. Liar, liar, pants on fire.

Also, didn't we hear earlier that after PA failed with his 30+ keys, the janitor unlocked the door where the Border Patrol officer took down the shooter?
 

WingsOverTX

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They are seeking public input before writing legislation. Of course, they never listen!

This does not sound like an investigation to me.

I've testified before: Public testimony is limited to two minutes, if submitting written testimony, you must make 20 copies

These are standard senate instructions
You're right. My bad for confusing the upcoming Texas Senate hearings with the Robb Elementary Texas House closed hearing that was held in Uvalde today.


After Burrows’ opening statements Monday, the committee went into executive session, blocking the public from hearing witness testimony.
 

Erutan

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You're right. My bad for confusing the upcoming Texas Senate hearings with the Robb Elementary Texas House closed hearing that was held in Uvalde today.


After Burrows’ opening statements Monday, the committee went into executive session, blocking the public from hearing witness testimony.
bolding intended by me
Not sure how to feel about that.

I think the more transparent the better.
At the very least, allow the families of the deceased to know the truth, even if it's hard to listen to -- the mistakes made that might have been avoided, etc. ?
My .02.
 

WingsOverTX

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bolding intended by me
Not sure how to feel about that.

I think the more transparent the better.
At the very least, allow the families of the deceased to know the truth, even if it's hard to listen to -- the mistakes made that might have been avoided, etc. ?
My .02.
Yes, to a large extent I agree.

At this point I am most interested in a narrative that gives the viewpoint of each LE group actually inside the school that day. I think the only way to get to some form of truth is to take (their hopefully honest) perspectives and narratives and then analyze what went well & what failed.

So many of the failures seem obvious at this point. But that's mostly from a layperson's perspective from members of LE who have talked to the media.

Do I think we're going to ever have a completely cohesive narrative? No. Do I think all players can set aside their biases and need for cover? No.

Because of the very human-error-riddled response, I think the best we can hope for is that the student intervention program started in Texas schools in 2019 be expanded to all districts as quickly as possible. Troubled kids are one danger point that can be addressed. We need to catch the warning signs of individual students and try to prevent this kind of event from happening.

No LE response is ever going to be perfect but not having to conduct takedown of a student shooter within school walls would be a most worthwhile goal.

Of course, SR was a dropout & not all school shooters are "insiders" so no plan or intervention will address all scenarios.

To me, the main takeaways are that smaller districts need to be better prepared and jurisdictions where more than two groups of LE may respond from different levels of government, coordination plans before an event are critical.

I keep asking myself if bureaucracy is really the reason the door(s) to the classroom we're not breached sooner. I still have a hard time believing all were so cold hearted and cowardly that it took BORTAC to finally DO SOMETHING. If so, then I am left with an agonizing despair.

MOO
 

Friday Fan

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Yes, to a large extent I agree.

At this point I am most interested in a narrative that gives the viewpoint of each LE group actually inside the school that day. I think the only way to get to some form of truth is to take (their hopefully honest) perspectives and narratives and then analyze what went well & what failed.

So many of the failures seem obvious at this point. But that's mostly from a layperson's perspective from members of LE who have talked to the media.

Do I think we're going to ever have a completely cohesive narrative? No. Do I think all players can set aside their biases and need for cover? No.

Because of the very human-error-riddled response, I think the best we can hope for is that the student intervention program started in Texas schools in 2019 be expanded to all districts as quickly as possible. Troubled kids are one danger point that can be addressed. We need to catch the warning signs of individual students and try to prevent this kind of event from happening.

No LE response is ever going to be perfect but not having to conduct takedown of a student shooter within school walls would be a most worthwhile goal.

Of course, SR was a dropout & not all school shooters are "insiders" so no plan or intervention will address all scenarios.

To me, the main takeaways are that smaller districts need to be better prepared and jurisdictions where more than two groups of LE may respond from different levels of government, coordination plans before an event are critical.

I keep asking myself if bureaucracy is really the reason the door(s) to the classroom we're not breached sooner. I still have a hard time believing all were so cold hearted and cowardly that it took BORTAC to finally DO SOMETHING. If so, then I am left with an agonizing despair.

MOO
I would like to see small districts like Uvalde go back to contracting with local LE. The state will never fund the school districts enough to support a police department for a district that is this small. However, municipal PDs get plenty of funding.
 

sds71

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The officers in the hallway of Robb Elementary wanted to get inside classrooms 111 and 112 — immediately.
One officer’s daughter was inside. Another officer had gotten a call from his wife, a teacher, who told him she was bleeding to death…Some officers were itching to move.

One such officer, a special agent at the Texas Department of Public Safety, had arrived around 20 minutes after the shooting started. He immediately asked: Are there still kids in the classrooms?

“If there is, then they just need to go in,” the agent said.

Another officer answered, “It is unknown at this time.”

The agent shot back, “Y’all don’t know if there’s kids in there?” He added, “If there’s kids in there we need to go in there.”

“Whoever is in charge will determine that,” came the reply.

The inaction appeared too much for the special agent. He noted that there were still children in other classrooms within the school who needed to be evacuated.

“Well, there’s kids over here,” he said. “So I’m getting kids out.”

By 12:01 p.m., the DPS special agent had returned to the hallway and offered his urgent assessment: The situation required officers to go into the classrooms

“It sounds like a hostage rescue situation,” the DPS officer said. “Sounds like a UC [undercover] rescue. They should probably go in.”

A police officer — it’s not clear whether from the city or school district — then said, “Don’t you think we should have a supervisor approve that?”

“He’s not my supervisor,” the DPS agent countered before leaving the hallway to clear other rooms of children…

 

WingsOverTX

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The officers in the hallway of Robb Elementary wanted to get inside classrooms 111 and 112 — immediately.
One officer’s daughter was inside. Another officer had gotten a call from his wife, a teacher, who told him she was bleeding to death…Some officers were itching to move.

One such officer, a special agent at the Texas Department of Public Safety, had arrived around 20 minutes after the shooting started. He immediately asked: Are there still kids in the classrooms?

“If there is, then they just need to go in,” the agent said.

Another officer answered, “It is unknown at this time.”

The agent shot back, “Y’all don’t know if there’s kids in there?” He added, “If there’s kids in there we need to go in there.”

“Whoever is in charge will determine that,” came the reply.

The inaction appeared too much for the special agent. He noted that there were still children in other classrooms within the school who needed to be evacuated.

“Well, there’s kids over here,” he said. “So I’m getting kids out.”

By 12:01 p.m., the DPS special agent had returned to the hallway and offered his urgent assessment: The situation required officers to go into the classrooms

“It sounds like a hostage rescue situation,” the DPS officer said. “Sounds like a UC [undercover] rescue. They should probably go in.”

A police officer — it’s not clear whether from the city or school district — then said, “Don’t you think we should have a supervisor approve that?”

“He’s not my supervisor,” the DPS agent countered before leaving the hallway to clear other rooms of children…

Sounds like my worst fears coming true. :(

Dang, I hate that.

JMO
 

Wise Old Owl

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Since we are rehashing the events of the breach (and the long agonizing minutes before), there was something that came up early on that I've kept in the back of my mind all this time. I am waiting to have this cleared up because it just doesn't "ring true" to me.

It was an account of a little boy that had hid under a table - the table was covered with a tablecloth so the shooter couldn't see him and he was with 4 other boys.

Here:

"The cop said: 'Yell if you need help!' And one of the persons in my class said 'help.' The guy overheard and he came in and shot her," the boy said.

“When the cops came, the cop said: 'Yell if you need help!' And one of the persons in my class said 'help.' The guy overheard and he came in and shot her," the boy said. "The cop barged into that classroom. The guy shot at the cop. And the cops started shooting.”


What doesn't ring true is that an LE officer breaching a room like this would certainly know NOT TO CALL OUT to survivors. And, when he did, the boy said that the "guy" (shooter) came in and shot a girl who called for help. But if the cops were already in the room, they would have shot him before he had a chance to shoot the girl.

The one account of the breach that was reported stated that the shooter had hid in a built-in closet in the room and when they breached he came out shooting. So, did he come in and shoot the girl then go hide in the closet?

Other people I've talked to about this said the same thing I thought about this - maybe the boy "thought" it was a cop that called out - he was hiding under the table and couldn't see who was talking - and I don't think the shooter said all that much so maybe it was actually the shooter that said "call out if you need help" to see if anyone was still alive. IDK - I just can't see an officer doing that upon breaching a room in an incident like this. Plus, if that is what happened - that poor officer - how he must feel - he got a child killed. But I don't think that is how it went down.

I am truly hoping that this gets cleared up. And it is something that I'm looking for clarification when these investigations are finally reported on.



JMHO
 

WingsOverTX

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WingsOverTX

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“If there’s kids in there, we need to go in”: Officers in Uvalde were ready with guns, shields and tools — but not clear orders
The Texas Tribune has reviewed law enforcement transcripts and footage that federal and state investigators are examining after the May 24 tragedy.


“At this point it’s clear that a multitude of errors in judgment combined to turn a bad situation into a catastrophe,” said Katherine Schweit, a former FBI agent who co-authored the agency’s foremost research on mass shootings. “The law enforcement rarely thinks their response is textbook, [but] I can’t think of another incident in the United States where it appears so many missed opportunities occurred to get it right.”

BBM
 
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