GUILTY UK - Brianna Ghey, 16, murdered in Culcheth Linear Park, Feb 2023 *2 teenagers charged*

[Honeybirdette]

RP: Did you see her as you crossed the fields?

Y: I was following her so yes.

RP: was she running?

Y: Yes

RP: Could you see her arms?

Y: I would’ve seen her arms because I can see her body, but that doesn’t mean I can see her hands.

RP: Are you saying that as you crossed the field, you could not see her hands?

Y: While I’m running, my eyes go up and down with my body, making it harder to see objects clearly, and I am also unable to focus my eyesight as well as I can do not running, and since I was also not directly looking at her hands, that makes them no more than a blurry image that cannot be seen.

RP: So, as you ran across the field, are you saying you did not see X with a knife?

Y: I didn’t see her hand, so I didn’t see a knife.

As it happened: Live Brianna Ghey murder trial updates from boy Y’s defence

Live updates from Manchester Crown Court from the trial of two youths accused of the murder of Brianna Ghey in Culcheth Linear Park in February

www.warringtonguardian.co.uk

These are the type of smart a$$ responses I’m talking about.

 

[Honeybirdette]

RP: When did you decide to admit that your knife had been used to kill Brianna?

Y: I cannot answer that because you’re asking for a specific day over the last 10 or so months, so there is no way I could know that.

RP: Did you change your account about the knife when you saw the forensic science evidence?

Y: I know what the forensic evidence is, but I don’t remember when I was told that.

Justice Yip: Did you admit the knife had been used because you saw the forensic science evidence?

Y: I don’t know when I admitted the knife had been used, so I cannot answer that.

As it happened: Live Brianna Ghey murder trial updates from boy Y’s defence

Live updates from Manchester Crown Court from the trial of two youths accused of the murder of Brianna Ghey in Culcheth Linear Park in February

www.warringtonguardian.co.uk

The judge also picks up on it here I think, which is why she involves herself and repeats the KC’s question.

 

[Alyce]

Echo updates are now loaded - this is something I didnt see in WarringtonGuardian posts


16:34Abigail Nicholson

Worries of Boy Y "getting tired"​

The intermediary says: “My lady, I’ve just asked Boy Y if he was tired and he shrugged his shoulder which is an indication that he’s getting tired.”
She asks how many more questions he will be asked by Mr Pratt.
Justice Yip says: “He seems to be following and answering the questions.”
The questioning will continue.

Brianna Ghey murder trial live updates as Girl X gives evidence

The 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl was fatally stabbed in a park and two teenagers are charged with her murder

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

I do like Justice Yip

 

[bobbymkii]

One strange quirk I've just realised about him giving evidence in this way is that we are getting a much more similar experience of his evidence to the jury by following the live feed updates on the Echo/WG than we would if he was giving evidence orally.

They're just seeing words on a screen in court, and so are we wherever we are following the trial from!

 

[bobbymkii]

Echo updates are now loaded - this is something I didnt see in WarringtonGuardian posts


16:34Abigail Nicholson

Worries of Boy Y "getting tired"​

The intermediary says: “My lady, I’ve just asked Boy Y if he was tired and he shrugged his shoulder which is an indication that he’s getting tired.”
She asks how many more questions he will be asked by Mr Pratt.
Justice Yip says: “He seems to be following and answering the questions.”
The questioning will continue.

Brianna Ghey murder trial live updates as Girl X gives evidence

The 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl was fatally stabbed in a park and two teenagers are charged with her murder

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

I do like Justice Yip

I've just started scrolling through and there's an entire line of questioning about him doing kickboxing which the Warrington Guardian completely omitted.

Why?!

 

[Alyce]

I've just started scrolling through and there's an entire line of questioning about him doing kickboxing which the Warrington Guardian completely omitted.

Why?!

Yes, and more discussion in there re his sleeve and the blood - right or left arm

and a point where the Jury had to go out because RL wanted to raise an issue


WG presumably goes for the condensed version

 

[noseybonk]

Speaking as an autistic person and a transgender person, Brianna's murder and the behaviour of those alleged to have murdered her have been playing very very heavily on me. I think I can potentially provide some context which others (specifically non-transgender and non-autistic people) may not know or have considered.

In terms of Y's huge variances in language (from casual texts with X to his very formal, pedantic, precise responses in court), I can see patterns of speech that I recognize in my own speech. For me personally, my autism makes my code switching quite rigid compared to the average person - if I was being questioned as a suspect in a murder, I think I would probably be extremely precise too. I'd probably come across as pedantic too, not through trying to trick anyone or show off, but because of wanting to make sure my point is absolutely crystal clear. A lot of autistic people struggle with being fully understood, and that combined with the very formal situation could lead to Y coming across badly when just trying to be clear. (I am not defending any of Y's alleged actions nor saying this is definitely what's happening here)

I also think selective mutism appearing only after being taken into custody is a likely and probable event, though obviously I cannot say whether this is the case in this situation specifically. I personally struggle with verbal communication due to my ASD, and have lost the capacity for speech in far lower-stress environments than this. JMO. I think it's excellent that a way has been found for Y to communicate his answers to the court - it's not equal, it's equitable, which is important.

Regarding the discussion of his use of the term 'told off' and whether that's an intentional tactic to self-infantilise, I think it's entirely possible. Autistic people are often infantilised anyway, and it theoretically could be a tactic for defence - to paint a picture of such intense emotional immaturity that capacity is reduced. As in, 'look, you're autistic, if you act younger they'll think you've got reduced mental capacity and you might get off'. JMO.

In terms of Brianna's experiences (at school, at home, online, her mental health, allll that side of things), I am deeply unsurprised that she apparently had mental health problems. Being transgender comes with a lot of difficulties, even aside from the obvious possibilities of hate crime/murder/assault etc - difficulties accessing healthcare, unexpected expenses, loneliness, exclusion, plus the constant barrage of transphobia in British press at the moment. Teenagers have high rates of mental health problems anyway, throw in the difficulties associated with being transgender and it's hard. I'm older than Brianna and the accused - in my 20's - and so I can't comment on things like how inclusive or accepting school would have been. I know everyone is confident that school and her peers were affirmative and supportive, and I am not disputing nor disagreeing with that in any way. I do just want to state that as an openly queer teenager in the 2010's, I kept most bullying, exclusion, and fear to myself because I knew that little would be done about it and I was scared of rocking the boat and making things worse.

I can only speak from my own perspective, but growing up autistic (and undiagnosed until early adulthood) was a very frightening, lonely experience. Growing up transgender was also a very frightening, lonely experience. Brianna should be alive and thriving.

Sorry for the wall of text.

 

[iamshadow21]

Speaking as an autistic person and a transgender person, Brianna's murder and the behaviour of those alleged to have murdered her have been playing very very heavily on me. I think I can potentially provide some context which others (specifically non-transgender and non-autistic people) may not know or have considered.

In terms of Y's huge variances in language (from casual texts with X to his very formal, pedantic, precise responses in court), I can see patterns of speech that I recognize in my own speech. For me personally, my autism makes my code switching quite rigid compared to the average person - if I was being questioned as a suspect in a murder, I think I would probably be extremely precise too. I'd probably come across as pedantic too, not through trying to trick anyone or show off, but because of wanting to make sure my point is absolutely crystal clear. A lot of autistic people struggle with being fully understood, and that combined with the very formal situation could lead to Y coming across badly when just trying to be clear. (I am not defending any of Y's alleged actions nor saying this is definitely what's happening here)

I also think selective mutism appearing only after being taken into custody is a likely and probable event, though obviously I cannot say whether this is the case in this situation specifically. I personally struggle with verbal communication due to my ASD, and have lost the capacity for speech in far lower-stress environments than this. JMO. I think it's excellent that a way has been found for Y to communicate his answers to the court - it's not equal, it's equitable, which is important.

Regarding the discussion of his use of the term 'told off' and whether that's an intentional tactic to self-infantilise, I think it's entirely possible. Autistic people are often infantilised anyway, and it theoretically could be a tactic for defence - to paint a picture of such intense emotional immaturity that capacity is reduced. As in, 'look, you're autistic, if you act younger they'll think you've got reduced mental capacity and you might get off'. JMO.

In terms of Brianna's experiences (at school, at home, online, her mental health, allll that side of things), I am deeply unsurprised that she apparently had mental health problems. Being transgender comes with a lot of difficulties, even aside from the obvious possibilities of hate crime/murder/assault etc - difficulties accessing healthcare, unexpected expenses, loneliness, exclusion, plus the constant barrage of transphobia in British press at the moment. Teenagers have high rates of mental health problems anyway, throw in the difficulties associated with being transgender and it's hard. I'm older than Brianna and the accused - in my 20's - and so I can't comment on things like how inclusive or accepting school would have been. I know everyone is confident that school and her peers were affirmative and supportive, and I am not disputing nor disagreeing with that in any way. I do just want to state that as an openly queer teenager in the 2010's, I kept most bullying, exclusion, and fear to myself because I knew that little would be done about it and I was scared of rocking the boat and making things worse.

I can only speak from my own perspective, but growing up autistic (and undiagnosed until early adulthood) was a very frightening, lonely experience. Growing up transgender was also a very frightening, lonely experience. Brianna should be alive and thriving.

Sorry for the wall of text.

I agree with all of this.

It's interesting how differently how Boy Y's testimony is ringing for some people, how some are reading it as showing off or being obnoxious (which is something autistic people trying to socialise get used to hearing on the regular). Not anything about truthfulness, guilt or innocence, but how he's structuring his sentences, how pedantic and precise he's being. It's probably exactly how my testimony would read in the same situation. It's an autistic person trying hard to convey precisely what they want to without any degrees of ambiguity, and it's as characteristic as a regional accent to me, another autistic person who communicates very similarly in intense situations.

MOO

 

[missf]

I agree with all of this.

It's interesting how differently how Boy Y's testimony is ringing for some people, how some are reading it as showing off or being obnoxious (which is something autistic people trying to socialise get used to hearing on the regular). Not anything about truthfulness, guilt or innocence, but how he's structuring his sentences, how pedantic and precise he's being. It's probably exactly how my testimony would read in the same situation. It's an autistic person trying hard to convey precisely what they want to without any degrees of ambiguity, and it's as characteristic as a regional accent to me, another autistic person who communicates very similarly in intense situations.

MOO

I also agree. I don't think he is trying to be 'smart' in his answers. His rigid communication and unusual phrasing / thought processing comes across to me as being because he is autistic. I find his answers far more believable than the girl's, but the forsnsic evidence seems to suggest otherwise.

 

[bobbymkii]

I agree with all of this.

It's interesting how differently how Boy Y's testimony is ringing for some people, how some are reading it as showing off or being obnoxious (which is something autistic people trying to socialise get used to hearing on the regular). Not anything about truthfulness, guilt or innocence, but how he's structuring his sentences, how pedantic and precise he's being. It's probably exactly how my testimony would read in the same situation. It's an autistic person trying hard to convey precisely what they want to without any degrees of ambiguity, and it's as characteristic as a regional accent to me, another autistic person who communicates very similarly in intense situations.

MOO

If not for the rules about sub-judice trials (that got this thread almost entirely yeeted by the mods earlier on) I think we would be talking a lot more about guilt/innocence of these defendants!

 

[Honeybirdette]

I also agree. I don't think he is trying to be 'smart' in his answers. His rigid communication and unusual phrasing / thought processing comes across to me as being because he is autistic. I find his answers far more believable than the girl's, but the forsnsic evidence seems to suggest otherwise.

This is what I mean. We know he’s a liar, the evidence proves he is a liar. So it shouldn’t be a shock some of us are questioning whether he’s being genuine on the stand or not.

 

[Dotta]

I also agree. I don't think he is trying to be 'smart' in his answers. His rigid communication and unusual phrasing / thought processing comes across to me as being because he is autistic. I find his answers far more believable than the girl's, but the forsnsic evidence seems to suggest otherwise.

What really caught my attention was his answer to the question about the knife GX allegedly was holding while running
(posted somewhere upthread).

I'm sorry,
but I chuckled reading his answer
(he said he didn't pay attention to her hands).

I know it is inappropriate to laugh
but I couldn't help myself.

It sounded soooo smart a$$ hehe
Or maybe my sense of humour is weird

JMO

 

[Lincoln34]

RP: Did you see her as you crossed the fields?

Y: I was following her so yes.

RP: was she running?

Y: Yes

RP: Could you see her arms?

Y: I would’ve seen her arms because I can see her body, but that doesn’t mean I can see her hands.

RP: Are you saying that as you crossed the field, you could not see her hands?

Y: While I’m running, my eyes go up and down with my body, making it harder to see objects clearly, and I am also unable to focus my eyesight as well as I can do not running, and since I was also not directly looking at her hands, that makes them no more than a blurry image that cannot be seen.

RP: So, as you ran across the field, are you saying you did not see X with a knife?

Y: I didn’t see her hand, so I didn’t see a knife.

As it happened: Live Brianna Ghey murder trial updates from boy Y’s defence

Live updates from Manchester Crown Court from the trial of two youths accused of the murder of Brianna Ghey in Culcheth Linear Park in February

www.warringtonguardian.co.uk

These are the type of smart a$$ responses I’m talking about.

As an autistic person myself- and with 3 autistic kids- all high functioning - this reads as quite authentic . ASD folks are very direct. He’s clearly high functioning and some of his other responses evidence quite sophisticated use of language. He could have thought about it and be lying - could have been coached. But this matter of fact style doesn’t come across to me at the moment as sassy per se. If course we can hear him and that could change - with more context - which jury will hear.

 

[Lincoln34]

What really caught my attention was his answer to the question about the knife GX allegedly was holding while running
(posted somewhere upthread).

I'm sorry,
but I chuckled reading his answer
(he said he didn't pay attention to her hands).

I know it is inappropriate to laugh
but I couldn't help myself.

It sounded soooo smart a$$ hehe
Or maybe my sense of humour is weird

JMO

It’s a typical response from an autistic person on the face of it .

 

[Dotta]

Summary​

"Schoolgirl accused of stabbing transgender teenager was 'giddy' moments before she murdered her, court hears."​

Schoolgirl accused of stabbing Brianna Ghey 'giddy before murder'

A teenage girl was 'giddy' moments before she stabbed 16-year-old Brianna Ghey (pictured) to death in a 'frenzied' attack, a court heard today, as her co-accused Boy X gave evidence for the first time.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Detective_Popcorn]

RL: “Do you remember who it was who first got to the bench?”
Y: “I believe it was Girl X.”
...
RL: “Were you stood facing the bench, or away from the bench?”
Y: “I believe I was facing away.”
...
RL: “Can you remember which hand Girl X was holding the knife in?”
Y: “I believe it was her right, but I think that may be wrong.”
...
RL: “When you were crouched down, next to Brianna, were you facing back towards Culcheth or were you facing in the direction of where you’d gone for a wee?”
Y: “I remember facing away, but I believe that is because I was looking at the body, so I have no frame of reference whether I am facing away or towards Culcheth, so I believe I might just be filling in the memory of direction.”

RL: “Was Brianna closer to the bench or closer to the steps?”
Y: “I would say closer to the steps to the bench, like a few steps had been taken from the bench.”
...
RL: “What position was Girl X’s body in when she was stabbing Brianna?”
Y: “I would say a upright position.”
...
RL: “Where was she stabbing Brianna? Where on Brianna’s body was Girl X stabbing her?”
Y: “I can’t remember specifically, but I would say around her torso.”


A professional analysis of his responses would be interesting. When answering questions about the specific circumstances at the murder scene, it struck me that he introduced these slightly hedging qualifiers, like "I believe" or "I would say". This sort of formulation is rarely used in his answers elsewhere when posed questions of fact - as others have mentioned, he seems quite direct and even pedantic at points.

But JMO. There may be other reasons why his evidence here seems vague, trauma for example. And of course we are only going on the live feed reports and do not know how verbatim these responses are.

 

[Dotta]

There were 28 stabs.

If one person did it,
it must have been absolute frenzy.

Frenzied and hateful attack.
Very personal.
As if all negative pent up emotions, pent up hatred/anger suddenly exploded.
I imagine, the (alleged) perp must have been in a daze, out of control, wild.

And, mind you, the alleged perps only ran away because a witness arrived.

JMO

 

[bobbymkii]

There were 28 stabs.

If one person did it,
it must have been absolute frenzy.

Frenzied and hateful attack.
Very personal.
As if all negative pent up emotions, pent up hatred/anger suddenly exploded.
I imagine, the (alleged) perp must have been in a daze, out of control, wild.

And, mind you, the alleged perps only ran away because a witness arrived.

JMO

Aiden Fucci managed to stab Tristyn 114 times all by himself in one attack. So it's surely plausible that one person could have caused all of the knife injuries.

Murder of Tristyn Bailey - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Detective_Popcorn]

There were 28 stabs.

If one person did it,
it must have been absolute frenzy.

Frenzied and hateful attack.
Very personal.
As if all negative pent up emotions, pent up hatred/anger suddenly exploded.
I imagine, the (alleged) perp must have been in a daze, out of control, wild.

And, mind you, the alleged perps only ran away because a witness arrived.

JMO

Quite. And yet Boy Y testified he only saw Girl X stab BG "about 3 times", while Girl X said she saw Boy Y stab BG "around 5 or 6 times".

Neither timeline makes sense to me. Both say they were alerted by Brianna screaming, but surely any screaming was likely to be right at the start of the attack, not towards the end especially when BG would have suffered the majority of her wounds.

So did it take c.20 seconds before they turned round to see why Brianna had screamed, just in time to see the final few stabs being inflicted? Would you not turn round immediately you heard someone scream?

Or are they saying Brianna was already stabbed 20 odd times before she screamed?

 

[MollyHarps]

I’ve been following this case from afar for a while - it’s being held in my home city (Manchester) so it is on my local news each evening.

Firstly, my condolences go to Briannas family I hope she’s resting in peace.

Brianna for such a young women seems like went through an awful lot in her young years. Bullying, Anxiety, identifying as a different sex to what they were born - part of my role used to involve working in a Pupil Referral Unit ( PRU ) and we had several students like Brianna who wanted to transition - these were often easy targets for the other students.

I’ve tried to follow the evidence but does anybody know if Brianna and the two suspected murderers attended a mainstream school? Or was it a PRU?

I agree with many that the girl is the brains behind the murder - I actually in someways feel sorry for the boy as I think he’s been led into this and felt he needed to impress her.