UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

[Cardgame]

The podcast has a transcript and it mentions it there.
Link in My post 706 to the transcript. Attached here.

Just adding to this. There is also reference in the pod to "thousands of pounds worth of fines on the camper van which she had asked family to pay off"

This is back when she was giving birth and pretending to be a traveller.

Screenshot attached.

 

[Cardgame]

The £25k parking/LEZ fines debt is interesting imo because it implies that CM's state of mind fluctuates wildly.

If the address visible in the correspondence in the post-fire photos is genuine (perhaps a big if) it implies she was organised and law-abiding enough at that time to run a car that was registered in her legal name and update the address with the DVLA when she moved there. To me, that's quite at odds with the off-grid and sometimes chaotic picture that's emerged during the trial - not just the crazy flight after Victoria was born, which might be seen as 'in extremis' behaviour, but for instance living in a tent and putting on accents to lie about her identity when she was pregnant with Baby 1, among other things.

I'm wondering whether she alternates between being reasonably sorted and being a bit of a train wreck for some reason.

Of course, perhaps the address the DVLA held was false, which would account for why the fines went unpaid, despite the trust fund etc.

jmoo

edited to add link to photo:
Runaway aristocrat Constance Marten trial shown heartbreaking images

Maybe before all this MG was sensitive about being pulled over by the police, and didn't want to have anything illegal going on with the vehicle.

Be interesting to know whose name all the fines were in.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Maybe before all this MG was sensitive about being pulled over by the police, and didn't want to have anything illegal going on with the vehicle.

Be interesting to know whose name all the fines were in.

I wonder if he has a driving licence? I'm guessing not.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

I think the obvious tricky part is demonstrating it was not a death through natural causes

RSBM
This was my exact thought reading your post.

this was the result of an unlawful act (i.e. not an accident or natural cause);

If evidence suggests that it was accidental or possible to be accidental, does that null and void natural causes?
The result of an unlawful act is very vague and could cover a wide range of situations.

 

[Telltale]

You know I wondered if they might have trouble with pinning down the whole causal link between exactly what they did and Victoria's death and I'm starting to fear that might sink it. Blatantly obviously=/= beyond a reasonable doubt. Marten is smart and Gordon is experienced . It seems they knew how they'd play this from the start and didn't slip up much in interview.

I've not caught up all the way yet so hoping to this is an out of date impression - I can't see how they can get out of the Concealing the Birth of a Child change at least. Just been having a bad feeling that they're headed for some infuriatingly light sentence.

 

[Sherlockhames]

The podcast has a transcript and it mentions it there.
Link in My post 706 to the transcript. Attached here.

Could the £25k sums owing be in relation to unpaid rent/damage caused to property before they moved out? I would be amazed if anyone could rack up that amount in parking fines, but unpaid rent in London could easily be that amount over a couple of years/combined with bills for property damage.

 

[Nikynoo]

Could the £25k sums owing be in relation to unpaid rent/damage caused to property before they moved out? I would be amazed if anyone could rack up that amount in parking fines, but unpaid rent in London could easily be that amount over a couple of years/combined with bills for property damage.

Unpaid rent is a possibility.

 

[Amaz0nia]

Unpaid rent is a possibility.

And unpaid council tax-that racks up pretty quickly once they get the bailiffs and court orders added on at £590 a time..is hard to get away with non payment of council tax and councils are quick to send it to debt collectors etc who add their own charges each time a letter is sent out..i just dont think they took responsibility for paying anything. I dont think £25k is an excessive amount if it involves non payment of parking charges/lez/ulez in London etc for a year or two. The obv ignored warning letters etc

 

[Cardgame]

Could the £25k sums owing be in relation to unpaid rent/damage caused to property before they moved out? I would be amazed if anyone could rack up that amount in parking fines, but unpaid rent in London could easily be that amount over a couple of years/combined with bills for property damage.

Make that unpaid rent alone!!

 

[rightsaidfred]

I'd be surprised if the landlord had allowed them to rack up £25k in unpaid rent. If they did, they were negligent. The landlord can start the S8 eviction process when they're 2 months in arrears.

 

[Skigh]

I'd be surprised if the landlord had allowed them to rack up £25k in unpaid rent. If they did, they were negligent. The landlord can start the S8 eviction process when they're 2 months in arrears.

During lockdown,landlords were not allowed to evict tenants ,a significant number of tenants saw that as an invitation to live rent free.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

During lockdown,landlords were not allowed to evict tenants ,a significant number of tenants saw that as an invitation to live rent free.

This is true and the magistrates courts weren't processing eviction orders except in extreme cases, such as ASB etc. So a landlord literally couldn't evict.

 

[CaptainNancy]

What year/s were they living in the camper van? I thought I had read somewhere that the parking fines were racked up from their camper van? They wouldn't have been due rent or CT during those years, and may have used someone else's address for log book, tax and insurance etc.

 

[Nikynoo]

I'd be surprised if the landlord had allowed them to rack up £25k in unpaid rent. If they did, they were negligent. The landlord can start the S8 eviction process when they're 2 months in arrears.

Yea, but by the time the tenants actually evicted it can all add up. If you say rent is 2k per month and then add legal fees, it wouldn’t take long to reach 25k

 

[dotr]

It was mentioned upthread (post #700).

But you're missing my point. If the address on the letter is genuine, it points to a level of personal administrative organisation that is at significant odds with the chaotic, non-compliant picture that emerges from just about every other piece of information heard in court or revealed in the media.

I just think that's odd and wonder if it has an explanation.

jmoo

There is this..
2020

Man who used "affluenza" defense for killing 4 people in DUI crash is jailed in Texas

Ethan Couch, 22, was booked into a jail in Fort Worth after he tested positive for THC, the psychoactive compound in marijuana, court records show.

www.cbsnews.com

''Couch became known as the "affluenza teen" during his manslaughter trial for the 2013 crash. Couch, 16 at the time of the crash, was found to have a blood-alcohol level three times the legal limit for adult drivers after the crash. But a psychologist told a juvenile court that he was affected by "affluenza," or irresponsibility caused by family wealth.''

 

[Cardgame]

What year/s were they living in the camper van? I thought I had read somewhere that the parking fines were racked up from their camper van? They wouldn't have been due rent or CT during those years, and may have used someone else's address for log book, tax and insurance etc.

I think as far as we know, there are three separate sources re. The "debt"

1. The letter visible in the photo which is some kind of TFL fine , inside a bag recovered from the burning car (2023)

2. A reference in the podcast to a bag full of paperwork found in the burning car adding up to around 25k [presumably the same bag photographed which contains letter 1 but no other paperwork is visible] (2023)

3. A reference in the podcast to CM stating in hospital that she was living in a camper van that had accumulated thousands of pounds worth of fines (2017)


AFAIK this is all we know about the debts/fines. I can edit this to amend if anyone has any corrections.

 

[Alyce]

The Crown Court at Central Criminal Court

Daily Courtroom List for Monday 12 February 2024​

Court 5 - sitting at 12:00 pm THE RECORDER OF LONDON​ Trial (Part Heard) T20237104 GORDON Mark A 01MP1072723 SUSWM CPS MARTEN Constance 01MP1072723 DTA, Order made under Contempt of Court Act 1981 FINAL 2 www.courtserve.net​

 

[Nikynoo]

The Crown Court at Central Criminal Court

Daily Courtroom List for Monday 12 February 2024​

Court 5 - sitting at 12:00 pm THE RECORDER OF LONDON​ Trial (Part Heard) T20237104 GORDON Mark A 01MP1072723 SUSWM CPS MARTEN Constance 01MP1072723 DTA, Order made under Contempt of Court Act 1981 FINAL 2 www.courtserve.net​

@Alyce are there reporting restrictions in place?

 

[CaptainNancy]

@Alyce are there reporting restrictions in place?

I believe that the contempt order refers to the directive that the Judge gave to the jury at the start that they are not to do any research or reading about the case? The order notice has been in place since the beginning of the trial, and clearly the press are reporting plenty that does go on in the court.

 

[Nikynoo]

I believe that the contempt order refers to the directive that the Judge gave to the jury at the start that they are not to do any research or reading about the case? The order notice has been in place since the beginning of the trial, and clearly the press are reporting plenty that does go on in the court.

Juries are told that in every case though and the press reporting has been v patchy, like they’re being what they can report on.