Identified! UK - David Lytton, South Pennines, 'Neil Dovestone', 65-75, Dec'15

[dotr]

Just a thought about the phrase, "top of the mountain. "
imo, speculation.

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/thesaurus-category/british/to-kill-yourself
top yourself

to kill yourself deliberately

The Spiritual Mountain.
http://web.stanford.edu/group/relig.../20140302_UniversityPublicWorship_sermon1.pdf

 

[OracleOne]

Interesting take on it, Dotr. I mentioned in a previous post, when I had suspected suicide, if their might have been a religious reason for climbing the "mountain". Being a spiritual, rather than a religious person myself, I found "The Spiritual Mountain" an interesting read, especially about the various routes we can choose to take.

 

[Legally Bland]

I'm not so sure an experienced climber wouldn't call it a mountain after reading this.

The bodies of Graham West, 29, of Stalybridge, and Michael Roberts, 27, from Dukinfield, were found under 20-feet of snow at the foot of the gully at Chew Brook, four miles from Greenfield in 1963.

...

Paul Braithwaite, the distinguished Everest climber, said: “Although I never met him, Graham was iconic. He was ahead of his time in rock climbing.

“These mountains are unpredictable and dangerous places. They were victims of unforeseen circumstances.”

http://saddind.co.uk/dead-climbers-remembered/

BBM.

 

[David's Brother]

What do you mean about right/wrong, which element of it is bugging you most?

Just about everything, Why Saddleworth? Why transfer his money to a 3rd party when he could have left his money in the UK and got cash from any cash machine wordwide? What made him feel that he had to cut himself off and "Start over"? Why strychnine?
Because we don't have answers then any suggestion could either be right OR wrong

 

[David's Brother]

RE his room key, his room had long been cleared by the time GMP got to the hotel some months later.

 

[David's Brother]

Really fascinating questions coming up here, and also very interesting contributions from David's brother. Again, thank you Jeremy for your willingness to engage with us.

I'm really wondering now about why the Channel Four documentary was even made at all. If all those scenes are recreations (the phone calls, the meetings, the walking down the hallway), which I assume they are as it seems unlikely that cameras were following the investigation from the start, I find it amazing that the police agreed to participate and "act" out everything for the cameras. What was the point, in terms of benefit for the police, if indeed they know much more than they are letting on?

And what is the benefit to the public in promoting this as some grand mystery, if in fact the police know many of the answers already but are keeping them to themselves?

Have they concluded their investigation? If so, why is it left to Jeremy to try and find out answers by texting the mystery man for example who met David at the airport?

Why does Jeremy say that the credit card used to purchase the airline ticket needs looking into, when it is clearly written on the whiteboard in one of the scenes that they need to follow this up? Surely that is a very straightforward thing to sort out. Get the credit card number from the travel agent. Look up the bank details. Find out what activity was happening on that account. Sorted. But apparently, no, nothing has been done there.

I really don't understand what the police were aiming to achieve by agreeing to do this. Surely they are busy with plenty on their plates. So why go through with all these recreations? If they were genuinely trying to engage the public in bringing out more information, then why have they left so many threads hanging?

I almost find myself thinking that there is some attempt to mislead the public with this documentary, not just in withholding key pieces of information, but in creating a mystery when surely many aspects of this mystery ought to be easily cleared up with a few additional phone calls, to the travel agent, to the hotel, to the mystery man, to Heathrow. What am I missing here?

Are any of the police team reading this? Perhaps they might like to comment? I doubt it, but let's see.

There is no part of the investigation that I am left to sort out. I am now starting to piece together David's estate. If there is any part that we feel should be referred back to the authorities, then, of course, we will do so.

 

[David's Brother]

Loopdloop, I see your dissatisfaction is aimed at police rather than documentary makers, who edited and directed the show. Like in real life or in movies we will never know all the answers.

Police tasks were to determine cause of death, rule in/out foul play, identify deceased and lastly inform the next of kin. Done, done, done, done. Whatever happened abroad is different matter, they did not have to look into it at all and yet they did. I actually am grateful that they revealed to public as much as they did as in some other cases here, we are lucky to get even confirmation that person has been identified.

Summed up far better than I could, thanks.

 

[David's Brother]

"2) And this sounds really horrible and I don't really want to say it but think it needs saying now. How do we know for sure that Jeremy is Jeremy? I mean for all we know he could be anyone. Apologies Jeremy if you are who you say you are but there are a lot of people on the internet that would get off on impersonating you just for the attention."

It's quite conceivable that "Jeremy" could be a troll. I have questioned this and chosen to believe he is genuinely David's brother. I suppose it doesn't make much difference whether he is or he isn't.

You have every right to think anything you wish, however, I would say that as far as "trolling" I have only tried to add to the conversation not derail it, or disrespect any members or posters on here. You also have every right to ignore me?

There is another motoring forum I go onto and sometimes people who say that they own certain cars and are not believed are asked to do a "Custard" test, this is formed of a selfie with said car and a proprietary product placed where they have been asked to......... you could check with the Admin about my email address but this could also be faked I suppose, but then I am the person in the documentary, which means that I could be an actor too?

I would also say this is not helping really.

 

[David's Brother]

Given David's aversion to aspirin, it is unlikely he was using strychnine recreationally. As he was living in a slum in Lahore, i reckon the strychnine was already in use at the property to ward off rats. For some reason David kept back a sample for use later.

I was also quite shocked at how he lived in Lahore, but I have now been informed that his home there is far from a slum, and is how the majority of property-owning people live out there.

David's "aversion to aspirin" was an expression, and not a fact.

 

[David's Brother]

From the documentary, if i remember correctly - the Pakistani friend returned to England shortly thereafter, whilst David would stay on as an illegal for 10 years. So perhaps there is too much focus on this Pakistani friend?

I sense David was happy with the simple living in Pakistan but eventually forced to return because of visa problems.

David was not an illegal for the 10 years he lived there, he returned only because the authorities told him they would definitely not renew his visa again, which would have been for approximately the 20th time.

 

[David's Brother]

On reflection, I should have said "working people" not property-owning.

 

[OracleOne]

"You have every right to think anything you wish, however, I would say that as far as "trolling" I have only tried to add to the conversation not derail it, or disrespect any members or posters on here. You also have every right to ignore me?"

My sincere apologies, Jeremy. Troll was the wrong word to use. I understood it to mean someone who posts under a false identity, and not necessarily one who causes disharmony. I was actually trying to support you not insult you.

 

[David's Brother]

As far as the documentary being "real", only pick up shots were reproduced for the cameras, such as the shot of the Policewomen Kelly and Nichola walking down a corridor to meet John Coleman. Everything else was genuine and as was shot in real time.

 

[Victorhugo]

Hi all, I have been watching from the sidelines on here and have been following the case since it first went public.
We live in leeds and with it being a nice day today we drove up to dove stones just to take a look around and maybe answer a few questions....
We arrived about midday and the car park was packed so we went up to the next car park at binn green, it's about a 15 min walk on a woodland path to the reservoir. On the way we came across a clearing with two really old stone seats, like small 3seat sofa size. There was also a tree with logs forming a ring around it on the ground about 6 or 7 metre diameter. There are logs and sticks around the tree and it made me think of a burning at the stake scene. There are also lots of rings and squares made of stick and twigs everywhere in the area (see tap talk pic).
We walked to the water and strolled round to the sailing club to find a map.
Indian head was right behind us and the kids asked if it was Everest, i am not familiar with the Pennines but I would definitely describe it as a mountain and if he was down in the village I guess it would look even higher.
I do quite a bit of walking and back packing all over England and what struck me was the amount of British Asians there, I did speak to people to get a clue and none had local accents (yorks/lancs) in fact most were southern at a guess.
As I say I have walked all over but the only Asians I am used to encountering are the odd groups of Chinese tourists taking pics etc but certainly not a 50-50 mix with British Asians and there were women alone etc.
I might be totally wrong but a Koran expert may be able to shed a little light on the matter.
Dove stones is one of the most beautiful places I have ever visited it has a very calm and special feel about it and I will be up there the next time I go out with my walking mate.
I took some pics and will have a look through them tomorrow.


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[dotr]

Hi all, I have been watching from the sidelines on here and have been following the case since it first went public.
We live in leeds and with it being a nice day today we drove up to dove stones just to take a look around and maybe answer a few questions....
We arrived about midday and the car park was packed so we went up to the next car park at binn green, it's about a 15 min walk on a woodland path to the reservoir. On the way we came across a clearing with two really old stone seats, like small 3seat sofa size. There was also a tree with logs forming a ring around it on the ground about 6 or 7 metre diameter. There are logs and sticks around the tree and it made me think of a burning at the stake scene. There are also lots of rings and squares made of stick and twigs everywhere in the area (see tap talk pic).
We walked to the water and strolled round to the sailing club to find a map.
Indian head was right behind us and the kids asked if it was Everest, i am not familiar with the Pennines but I would definitely describe it as a mountain and if he was down in the village I guess it would look even higher.
I do quite a bit of walking and back packing all over England and what struck me was the amount of British Asians there, I did speak to people to get a clue and none had local accents (yorks/lancs) in fact most were southern at a guess.
As I say I have walked all over but the only Asians I am used to encountering are the odd groups of Chinese tourists taking pics etc but certainly not a 50-50 mix with British Asians and there were women alone etc.
I might be totally wrong but a Koran expert may be able to shed a little light on the matter.
Dove stones is one of the most beautiful places I have ever visited it has a very calm and special feel about it and I will be up there the next time I go out with my walking mate.
I took some pics and will have a look through them tomorrow.


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Welcome to Ws Victorhugo, thanks for that very interesting and detailed post!
:welcome4:

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Hi all, I have been watching from the sidelines on here and have been following the case since it first went public.
We live in leeds and with it being a nice day today we drove up to dove stones just to take a look around and maybe answer a few questions....
We arrived about midday and the car park was packed so we went up to the next car park at binn green, it's about a 15 min walk on a woodland path to the reservoir. On the way we came across a clearing with two really old stone seats, like small 3seat sofa size. There was also a tree with logs forming a ring around it on the ground about 6 or 7 metre diameter. There are logs and sticks around the tree and it made me think of a burning at the stake scene. There are also lots of rings and squares made of stick and twigs everywhere in the area (see tap talk pic).
We walked to the water and strolled round to the sailing club to find a map.
Indian head was right behind us and the kids asked if it was Everest, i am not familiar with the Pennines but I would definitely describe it as a mountain and if he was down in the village I guess it would look even higher.
I do quite a bit of walking and back packing all over England and what struck me was the amount of British Asians there, I did speak to people to get a clue and none had local accents (yorks/lancs) in fact most were southern at a guess.
As I say I have walked all over but the only Asians I am used to encountering are the odd groups of Chinese tourists taking pics etc but certainly not a 50-50 mix with British Asians and there were women alone etc.
I might be totally wrong but a Koran expert may be able to shed a little light on the matter.
Dove stones is one of the most beautiful places I have ever visited it has a very calm and special feel about it and I will be up there the next time I go out with my walking mate.
I took some pics and will have a look through them tomorrow.


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Welcome, Victorhugo!!

Funnily enough I have just seen some friends FB pics of Dovestones, he has been cycling up there today and yes, it does look lovely in the sunshine. Remember though, it was a dark December evening when he went up there and I imagine it looked, and felt, very different.

Interesting re the number of Asian walkers up there today and I agree, not something you see often. I camp a lot with plenty of walking (mainly to pubs!) involved and can't recall seeing many Asian families or groups on my travels.

I also live in Leeds and cross over the tops regularly as my bestie lives in Lancs. I find Saddleworth bleak (perhaps because of its history) but will admit to never stopping for a proper look around.

Good to have you here, we do love a bit of proactivism (?) and I look forward to seeing your pics. Out of interest did you find the spot where David was found?

 

[easynic150]

Does anyone know anything about Salim Aktar? Where he's living? Did he go to university? What course did he study?


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[pinklilies]

David was not an illegal for the 10 years he lived there, he returned only because the authorities told him they would definitely not renew his visa again, which would have been for approximately the 20th time.

Hi Davids brother, do you mind me asking as this is the bit I find puzzling. David was financially independent and didn't need to rely on the country to keep him so why would they not renew his visa?
The inquest said that acquaintances in Pakistan had said he was keen to leave the country asap. Was this because he was fearful of being in trouble with the Authorities if he over stayed again or because he was desperate to leave but up until that time, had been prevented?
He did try to leave in 2008 but was apprehended at the airport. So did he want to leave or did he want to stay?
One other thing I think about is if David had a family out there. Did the girlfriend they cannot find have children with him? If so, that would maybe explain why he used a third party for his money.
Apologies if you find these questions prying or too personal and please just ignore, scroll and roll.
Thank you and have a good day to all. The weathers beautiful today in Yorkshire.

 

[Victorhugo]

Hi Cagney, I believe he was found on Indian head or "the mountain" we have young children so could only do a few miles and just wanted to see it for myself. We are hoping to head up again when they are at grandmas and walk up it but I will do more research into the exact spot David was found first.
We were talking last night and can vaguely recall a phrase about Mohamed and a mountain......?
Another point is dovestones was in West Yorkshire until the boundaries were redrawn in 1974.
It's the first time I have set foot on saddleworth, like the previous poster mentioned, I have passed it hundreds of times on the M62 and it looks bleak from the outside combined with its bleaker history it's just not somewhere that has never been very appealing.
Now I can't wait to visit again!


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[Victorhugo]

I'm not very computer savvy so have put first 2 pics up. If they are visible they were taken from the binn green car park the water is the resovoir above dovestones at the opposite end to Indian head.


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