'UK - Epsom college head Emma Pattinson, 45, found dead on campus along with husband George, 39, and daughter, Lettie, 7 - 6 Feb 2023

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RickshawFan said:
I think we have to be careful not to point the finger at a perpetrator nor assume that men are always the aggressors in domestic violence. LE hasn’t presented a scenario: they haven’t even made clear which of the 3 killed themselves; we only know 3 are dead.

IMO it’s in the nature of ambition, résumé protection, embarrassment, vulnerability, fear about consequences, and keeping up appearances that a person these days might not call the cops, not the nature of marriage.
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But we can consult the academic literature and note that 91 - 95% of familicide is committed by men. So its a logical assumption. As the LE have since released and the family member she called will have reported to them. I have seen rumours from family friends here in the UK about abuse and control but that's probably not allowed.

Also I'd be sceptical about the basis of the police call by him about her slapping him and suggesting the relationship was mutually volatile. That could also be a symptom of coercive control and the frustrations of being taunted and manipulated. We need to be better informed - and learn from Gabby Petito.
 
It was her sister she called :(

Also:

Though Mrs Pattison moved into her grace and favour home when she started her job last September, the family only handed over the keys to their old house a few weeks ago.

It was suggested Mr Pattison had continued to live at the family’s previous address for months after his wife took up her new post as the first female head at Epsom College.


www.dailymail.co.uk

Epsom head 'made distressed call to sister before she was shot dead'

Mr Pattison shot dead his wife and their child before turning the gun on himself in their grace and favour home on the school grounds in the early hours of Sunday, police believe.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
 
Vaccine said:
But we can consult the academic literature and note that 91 - 95% of familicide is committed by men. So its a logical assumption. As the LE have since released and the family member she called will have reported to them. I have seen rumours from family friends here in the UK about abuse and control but that's probably not allowed.

Also I'd be sceptical about the basis of the police call by him about her slapping him and suggesting the relationship was mutually volatile. That could also be a symptom of coercive control and the frustrations of being taunted and manipulated. We need to be better informed - and learn from Gabby Petito.
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IMO niche-ing this case into “familicide” may limit a textured view. This is not familicide like the Todt case. We don’t know how the event unfolded, or what the history is. And there might not have been intent to familicide—we don’t know what went on. In the Todt case, by contrast, a major goal was eradicating the family. The deaths of the kids were not collateral: that was a primary intent. We don’t know how or why the EC child was killed or how the perp thought about it. And there is only one child: this makes it harder to impute intent to familicide; it would be much easier to meet the definition if there were several child victims.
 
I noticed from the new Mail article:

"He phoned the police complaining she had slapped him during a domestic row. It is understood he regretted making the call and downplayed it as a trivial matter when officers arrived, claiming he didn’t realise what would happen.

Surrey Police did take the matter seriously and the Mail understands Mrs Pattison was interviewed under caution with a solicitor present. The case was dropped as her husband wouldn’t co-operate."

I wonder if she was asked about this during the recruitment process, and that everyone who made the appointment was aware of it, as I'm not sure whether this sort of information would be revealed on an enhanced DBS check?

www.dailymail.co.uk

Epsom head 'made distressed call to sister before she was shot dead'

Mr Pattison shot dead his wife and their child before turning the gun on himself in their grace and favour home on the school grounds in the early hours of Sunday, police believe.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
 
If the msm is correct that Emma's Sister DK got in the car and drove to the school after a 'distressing phone call' but was too late and they were already dead, is true.

I know it doesn't matter now. I'm sorry for speculating this has hurt my heart, I live 5 minutes from this school and I'm not a horse racing fan at all, but I've hacked my horse around the site of this school and the bridleways. It hits close to home being born and raised in Surrey (although from a very different life to private school, I grew up in a very poor family).

Anyway my feeling was; I do wander if Emma called her sister rather than police because she worried she was going to cause alarm and affect her very new job, if she were to call 999 with something akin to 'my husband has his rifle out' or aheated domestic on site at such a presiduous school.

I can't imagine myself, calling my family at maybe 11pm- midnight if sister lives in London she wouldn't be hours and hours away.... Over a trivial arguement. She was likely scared/fearing for her and even her daughter's life. I can only imagine the panic and fear, turmoil of who to call in her shoes.

If the husband/murderer went into a blind rage and went to get his rifle or threatened to and she had time to call someone and called her sister...the thoughts of, I could call 999 but a domestic arguement, especially involving a gun could lose me my job or bring a huge negative storm and drama over me so early in in my post, I'll call my sister instead.

Of course this is speculative but absolutely must've been a distressing call, for her sister to have got into her car late at night and drove over if this info is correct.

I just wonder if, she hadn't been on school grounds she would've gone straight to the police. I also wonder what their relationship was like, was it volatile? Was arguing and violence and threats of violence common or were they isolated incidents.

Nothing will change the outcome obviously but I just can't stop thinking about this family. I hope the little girl wasn't scared. I hope she was asleep and had no idea what happened to her. It is too much to bear.

My son is reception age and his class tescher knew Emma, and it is just... heartbreaking.
 
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RickshawFan said:
IMO niche-ing this case into “familicide” may limit a textured view. This is not familicide like the Todt case. We don’t know how the event unfolded, or what the history is. And there might not have been intent to familicide—we don’t know what went on. In the Todt case, by contrast, a major goal was eradicating the family. The deaths of the kids were not collateral: that was a primary intent. We don’t know how or why the EC child was killed or how the perp thought about it. And there is only one child: this makes it harder to impute intent to familicide; it would be much easier to meet the definition if there were several child victims.
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RBBM
Why? I'm not following the logic.

Isn't it unlikely we will never know why the child was killed & what the perp thought about it?

It was a family. One person killed all family members.

What are you parsing?

TIA
 
RickshawFan said:
IMO niche-ing this case into “familicide” may limit a textured view. This is not familicide like the Todt case. We don’t know how the event unfolded, or what the history is. And there might not have been intent to familicide—we don’t know what went on. In the Todt case, by contrast, a major goal was eradicating the family. The deaths of the kids were not collateral: that was a primary intent. We don’t know how or why the EC child was killed or how the perp thought about it. And there is only one child: this makes it harder to impute intent to familicide; it would be much easier to meet the definition if there were several child victims.
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LE have suggested her killer her and then their daughter. MSM here in the UK is reporting people who knew the family suggesting he had history of abuse and control. I don't know why you only reference the Todt case which I am not familiar with. Look at the research on the many cases of men murdering their partners and children - usually its about controlling the wife, possessiveness and is based on a history of abuse. But we may find out as her sister was the one she called and may have been her confidant about the real relationship.
 
From Daily Mail:

“
Though Mrs Pattison moved into her grace and favour home when she started her job last September, the family only handed over the keys to their old house a few weeks ago.

It was suggested Mr Pattison had continued to live at the family’s previous address for months after his wife took up her new post as the first female head at Epsom College.

Neighbours in Caterham said that Mrs Pattison, nor their daughter, had been seen since last summer but that Mr Pattison had spent time living in the property up until the £1.5million sale was completed last month.

One said: ‘I could see the lights on in the evening and his car was around but never hers.’”.

So, they were living apart for most of the time she was in EC??
 
supernothing said:
If the husband/murderer went into a blind rage and went to get his rifle or threatened to and she had time to call someone and called her sister...the thoughts of, I could call 999 but a domestic arguement, especially involving a gun could lose me my job or bring a huge negative storm and drama over me so early in in my post, I'll call my sister instead.
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If that scenario was what happened, and of course we don't know exactly what happened, then I would wonder - if the sister/family member *did* manage to get there in time and talk him down and stop the attack, what would EP have done then? Would she have still involved the police given that he had just threatened to attack/kill someone? It still would've had the same potential implications in terms of causing alarm, affecting her new job etc in the same way that you mention may have prevented her from calling the police in the first place? It's all sadly a moot point now but surely she would've had to take some sort of action given she was one of those ultimately responsible for safeguarding at the school. I would find it hard to imagine that anyone in that scenario and in that position in a school wanting to hide a domestic incident involving a gun. JMO.
 
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Vaccine said:
LE have suggested her killer her and then their daughter. MSM here in the UK is reporting people who knew the family suggesting he had history of abuse and control. I don't know why you only reference the Todt case which I am not familiar with. Look at the research on the many cases of men murdering their partners and children - usually its about controlling the wife, possessiveness and is based on a history of abuse. But we may find out as her sister was the one she called and may have been her confidant about the real relationship.
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My argument is that first the Epsom case has to meet the exact definition of cases used in the familicide studies, before they can be used for argument. Otherwise, you'd have a circular argument. It's very possible that the familicide label requires 4 deaths. 90% of those might, indeed, be committed by men. But that statistic would not relevant when there are only 3 deaths.

So, yeah, I don't think we can label a case "familicide" unless it exactly matches the definition used in familicide studies. It could be, for instance, that in cases where there are 3 deaths, the majority perps are women.
 
Vaccine said:
LE have suggested her killer her and then their daughter. MSM here in the UK is reporting people who knew the family suggesting he had history of abuse and control. I don't know why you only reference the Todt case which I am not familiar with. Look at the research on the many cases of men murdering their partners and children - usually its about controlling the wife, possessiveness and is based on a history of abuse. But we may find out as her sister was the one she called and may have been her confidant about the real relationship.
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Would you mind posting some examples from the UK MSM reporting what you say?
 
overthemoon said:
I got it wrong.

DailyMail mentioned he’s from Kingston, Jamaica.
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Jamaica, as far as I know, has people primarily of African, Chinese, or Indian (as in, from India) heritage, or a mixture of the above. So, the fact that he has darker skin and an epicanthic fold fits as someone of Jamaican heritage.
 
RickshawFan said:
My argument is that first the Epsom case has to meet the exact definition of cases used in the familicide studies, before they can be used for argument. Otherwise, you'd have a circular argument. It's very possible that the familicide label requires 4 deaths. 90% of those might, indeed, be committed by men. But that statistic would not relevant when there are only 3 deaths.

So, yeah, I don't think we can label a case "familicide" unless it exactly matches the definition used in familicide studies. It could be, for instance, that in cases where there are 3 deaths, the majority perps are women.
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However many there were, doesn't change the fact that he killed his family, which is the definition of familicide. Whatever cases studies have cherry picked for their research doesn't really rule this out. Anyone will tell you studies only work with the data that they think will give the clearest result for whatever they're hypothesising. That's why study parameters are so rigid, to avoid a broad scatter. This isn't a study. It's the lives of a young woman and her young daughter. We don't need to meet some minimum body count for that to be called a familicide, and I think it's a bit strange to be policing the word which precisely fits what this crime is. We're not academics creating a study, we're amateurs discussing crime on a message board, and to use the word for what that crime is is not only correct, it's allowed by the rules.
 
iamshadow21 said:
However many there were, doesn't change the fact that he killed his family, which is the definition of familicide. Whatever cases studies have cherry picked for their research doesn't really rule this out. Anyone will tell you studies only work with the data that they think will give the clearest result for whatever they're hypothesising. That's why study parameters are so rigid, to avoid a broad scatter. This isn't a study. It's the lives of a young woman and her young daughter. We don't need to meet some minimum body count for that to be called a familicide, and I think it's a bit strange to be policing the word which precisely fits what this crime is. We're not academics creating a study, we're amateurs discussing crime on a message board, and to use the word for what that crime is is not only correct, it's allowed by the rules.
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My original post on familicide actually responded to another poster who was citing statistics from somewhere or other. As I say, if the statistics are to be applicable and relevant, the situation has to correspond to the cases covered by the statistics.

I personally would not describe this Epsom case as familicide absent more info from LE and an EXACT definition of familicide in a peer-reviewed science or social science article.
 
RickshawFan said:
My original post on familicide actually responded to another poster who was citing statistics from somewhere or other. As I say, if the statistics are to be applicable and relevant, the situation has to correspond to the cases covered by the statistics.

I personally would not describe this Epsom case as familicide absent more info from LE and an EXACT definition of familicide in a peer-reviewed science or social science article.
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That is, in my opinion, a very odd stance to take, but you're entitled to it.

And we are allowed to call it a familicide, because we are also allowed to post what we like on this board if it fits available facts from LE and MSM, not if it is published in peer reviewed articles or journals.

I'll scroll and roll, and you're invited to do the same, if you don't like me calling a spade a spade. We're both here for this precious family, and that's what matters.
 
RickshawFan said:
A neighbor might have thought a kid had broken into the gun range, too. Evidently, the gun range was next to the headteacher's house.
At any rate, the sound of gunfire in the UK would likely be VERY obvious and jump out at someone. Unfortunately, in the US, guns are so ubiquitous, and shots so frequent, no one might have given it a second thought. Good on the neighbor for calling 999.
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It didn't save them, but it did save Emma's family from finding them deceased.
 
It does seem (to me, anyway) that the marriage hadn't been in good shape for quite a while. And I hadn't realized that GP had only recently joined his wife and daughter at the school. Of course that may have been because their previous home took longer to sell than anticipated, and they didn't like to leave it empty and vulnerable. But still, it seems like him moving in may have been the trigger which led to this tragedy. He may have already been jealous and angry about his wife's success and important job, and finally exploded. JMO
 
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