GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #2

[pinklilies]

. I wasn't criticising the operator for not knowing what breed of dog a dachshund is, she is not expected to be an expert on everything.
My irritation was with IS.... It sounded as though the operator was unsure, and he could have helped by saying sausage dog, as most people would understand that reference, or otherwise he could have described Boris so that she could understand.

No Alyce, I understood exactly what you was meaning. [emoji106] I thought the poster who replied to you, was being a little unfair about the person who took the 101 call or 'our cops on the beat' .

 

[Lit Up]

would being dumped in the cess pit have accelerated decomposition, any more than being dumped in water? They weren't able to figure out if she or Boris were alive when they were in the cesspit, so we don't know do we? It's horrible to think that she might have woken up in there, unable to get out, and drowned.

 

[Cherwell]

A few snippets from the blog, that I am re reading. These are all Helen's comments.

"Going back to my earlier comments about not wanting to get married, I never ever wanted the big white dress, the whole romantic thing etc. Such things I found claustrophobic and had me running a mile."

That is interesting. Of course people can change their minds, but it doesn't sound as if she would have gone in for the expensive Brocket Hall type wedding that he was enthusing about. We've heard she was careful with money, and spending so much on one day seems out of character.

 

[MillyM]

Further to my post of other day. This one with the 'Joe' in the comments section:
http://sykic.co.uk/andbeyond/2016/02/01/gosh-not-another-crappy-post/#comments

He was there, and on his own site here:
http://sykic.co.uk/comment-test/#comments

testing out the size and layout etc.

I think it is has to be assumed he is the 'Joe', perhaps testing that comments could be left by others. Maybe coincidence that he brings up the Joe name in December, but more likely this is a name he has assumed elsewhere at other times and so one that sprung easily to mind.

 

[Squamous]

Sadly, that's where our cops 'on the beat' so to speak let us down. Not the sharpest knives in the block, miss things and certainly freeze when faced with anything technical. Am allowed to say that due to personal experience.

I'm pretty sure the call takers are civilian and just work to checklists/scripts?

 

[mrjitty]

A comment about staging the crime scene (cleaning up evidence/hiding body)

While the advantages of staging present to a first time killer, especially one who wants to throw the police off the scent, the very act of staging actually reveals the hidden hand of the murderer.

Sophisticated killers tend not to stage the crime scene because they kill in such a way that leaves no linkage between them and the crime. Think especially serial killers where often the body is simply dumped, or professional killers (e.g. the drug trade). They don't construct narratives or signposts for investigators.

In the present case, the very act of concealment highlights two key features.

1. The need to conceal forensic evidence
2. That there was a relationship between killer and the deceased.

This is why the discovery of the body ought to be instantly fatal to the defence case.

It's these aspects which lead me to the conclusion we are not dealing with a sophisticated crime mastermind here.

He simply got lucky that the body was not immediately discovered when it should have been. But this has happened in any numerous other cases where we know who the killer is, but its hard to prove it, even when the body turns up many years later.

It's also this aspect of the case which enables us to identify lack of coherent planning.

The gaslighting of Helen is macabre but fits with an abusive personality type who seeks to control his victim.

What it does not do is fit with her subsequent murder.

Indeed why drug her this way if you are going to murderer her and hide her in the cess pit? He had ample opportunity to murder her at any time in the previous months.

Furthermore if the plan was for Helen to "go away" why not create better evidence?

e.g. an email from Helen?
e.g a FB message from Helen to a friend?

These things could be done even while Helen was demonstrably still alive.

I firmly believe the staging points more to a botched job.

It's not unknown for these types of killers to lose control and I wonder if he had not planned to kill her, but rather lost control and murdered her that morning while she was unconscious.

Anyway - that's my thoughts on it so far.

I think the gaslighting points to a different and extremely planned and controlled cycle of abuse.

He sought and enjoyed that secret power over her while she was defenceless

The murder to me looks like a rushed cover up that had to be executed with no time to figure things out properly.

 

[mrjitty]

Read her comments on that link.

I suspect Is fits pretty closely to the abusive partner type - but an emotional abuser rather than a violent one.

These people can be quite planned and clever before showing their true colours.

I would dearly love to know if other women have had bad experiences with him.

Of course his two main partners are conveniently dead.

 

[Squamous]

Interesting thoughts mrjitty. I agree that it doesn't fit together. I could believe that he didn't mean to kill her but the actions he took with respect to her money suggests he had plenty of ideas for what to do once she was out of the picture.

I found it hard to hear him saying "it would be hard to abuse Helen, she's a strong person, she'd come back at you very strongly". All true, unless she was drugged into a stupor.

 

[Mayfly.Aus]

First post

Firstly, thanks for all the detailed updates and discussions. I’m based in Australia and my interest was first caught when Helen was missing and referred to as a young adult author (this is what I write). Out of curiosity I then read news reports and Helen’s blog and books and came to strongly identify with and feel a sense of connection to her – I’m not suggesting I’m special in this, I suspect one of Helen’s gifts as a writer was that she triggered these feelings in people! (And it’s so horribly horribly sad to say that in the past tense.) Emotionally I’ve fixated on this case as though it involves a friend or family member, so I’m glad to now find an outlet for the sadness, horror and strong wish for justice that I’m feeling.

As part of that, the question I think I’m fixated on trying to answer through reading all these details of evidence etc, is not who did it – I’ll allow due legal processes to take place, but from the facts reported find it hard to think it could be anyone other than the defendant – but why and how could he??? Perhaps acceptance of never fully understanding this, is part of the awful journey family and friends of victims must go through. With deep irony, if only they had Helen’s honest, perceptive voice to help them on that path. And the more optimistic slant is perhaps she already has, with her writings on coming to terms with other maddening questions of “why?” that she had around JS’s death.

To jump to a practical point, one thing I was wondering from the evidence so far (among many!) is about the piece of wood in the garage covering the cesspit hatch, allegedly painted to match with the garage. Was that piece of wood there before Helen’s death? If she didn’t typically park in the garage, is it something IS would have bothered inserting? If it was placed in the garage to cover the hatch directly after Helen’s death, then this seems an obvious trail of evidence that could lead to IS. Even if it was placed beforehand, what was the timing – was it around the time she started being drugged, eg any indication of pre-meditation for killing and using the cesspit for disposal?

Also, as regards the police difficulty with opening the hatch, looking at the wording referred to earlier of the police witness, the police seemed to refer specifically to the latch – could placing (or re-placing) the wood on top, then driving the jeep back and forth on top have bent or pressed the hinge/latch out of shape such that it became more difficult to open?

 

[Squamous]

That's not really fair, I'm not sure they're actual officers that take the 101 calls. But, had I not known Helen's dog was a Dachshund, when he said he was a 'daksund' I'm not sure I would have realised he meant a 'dashhound' as that's what I have always known them as. Or a sausage dog

Daksund is the usual pronunciation, but you illustrate the point that someone who has never had much to do with them wouldn't easily realise what he was on about, I don't think it has anything to do with intelligence. IS really doesn't seem to have the perception to realise he is not being clear (as Alyce is saying). I don't think it was deliberate, just an insight into him. He doesn't seem to be hearing well either though and alternating between chattily telling the operator about how they met and being a bit snappy with her.

 

[pinklilies]

Daksund is the usual pronunciation, but you illustrate the point that someone who has never had much to do with them wouldn't easily realise what he was on about, I don't think it has anything to do with intelligence. IS really doesn't seem to have the perception to realise he is not being clear (as Alyce is saying). I don't think it was deliberate, just an insight into him. He doesn't seem to be hearing well either though and alternating between chattily telling the operator about how they met and being a bit snappy with her.

Far more succinctly put than I. I never doubted Alyce's meaning. And I too noticed there could occasionally be a little irritation in his voice, particularly when he couldn't hear her.

 

[cottonweaver]

Hi everyone and thanks for all the great updates and posts since I was last here in thread 1.

It's a long story but I couldn't really follow week 1 on here but have been doing so in the press. I have caught up with quite a few. I do hope Helen's mother Elaine will be able to get her testimony done today so that some of the burden can be lifted.

Feel pretty sick to learn from Alyce's post that his mantra was " OLLI - One Life Live It. " Almost as sickened as when I heard the transcript recording last week as if he was logging the formality of missing luggage/insurance claim and the subtle denigrations in his account of Helen to the police interviewing him when she was first missing.

Want to echo the point made by another poster here earlier- the "If Only..." voice that you have when you read about this cynical man and the futile wish that she had moved on from IS instead, as a rebound relationship.

Regardless of all this horror, whilst catching up with some of your posts I have enjoyed the glimpses of light when posters are describing lighter moments eg. carrying a pair of dachs under each arm, weighing their cockapoos re. the hatch lid and Duchy's one liner post "Gorgeous grey haired widower?" or Batface's UHLM aka "Unemployed hobbyist and long-term malingerer." So much appreciated. I think Helen also had an understanding of this kind of quip and it helps dissipate some of the anger we may feel at such a pointless, callous and greedy taking of a life.

ETA - Alyce's post "if only" - just found poster.

 

[Squamous]

Ugh, part of me really wants it to be a big misunderstanding and IS to be totally innocent. There really isn't any other logical conclusion though is there?

I do think the references to the choosing of an opposite kind of partner to the lost spouse make a lot of sense. Helen was wealthy and wore designer clothes and lived a very cultured and middle class London life when her husband died, but she did meet him when she was 23 and he 42 and she was a temp in his office, I don't think her background was particularly affluent although I would imagine still middle class given her and her brother's accent and the stories she told from her youth. She has spoken latterly about her frustration in JS very much managing her almost as a little woman, he was in control of all the finances and was one of those people who don't tolerate weakness in themselves/others very well. He was definitely the leader in their relationship so I can see why she moved onto another relationship with someone her own age, where she could be the stronger character and the one who knows what is going on with finances etc. I do totally feel like there was possibly another relationship beyond the one with IS though, much more a meeting of the minds and it makes me want to kick stuff that any possibility of that was taken away from her.

This case really has got me (like so many of us here who have found the forum through a need to discuss it). A jeep like Helen's passed me on the school run this morning and it just breaks my heart that someone did such a thing to her.

 

[cottonweaver]

@ Squamous.
Yes I can see the attractions of meeting someone her own age etc . and choosing someone different to JS as you say but I only recall descriptions of IS as "lovely" or "kind", never seen any of the fulsome descriptions given about him along lines of JS or Helen herself - witty, vivacious, fun.....etc. **
It stands out from testimony that IS probably wasn't your dream dinner party guest, all her previous friends had hardly met him, as well as the lack of interaction with her family.

I can't remember where I read it now but I also recall his curmudgeonly attitude to any wedding celebrations - maybe it was the scrappy prototype blog he cobbled together? Wtte - no dancing, short wedding breakfast, alcohol if we really have to etc. ( maybe he was joking and it's my humour failure)

** caveat - I haven't read her books so please correct me. Anyway, I do appreciate she was happy with IS and I suppose that's something

 

[Squamous]

She often spoke of him as being witty so I do wonder if he doesn't come across well in text (in stark contrast to Helen). I agree that his chief virtues seem to be in terms of kindness, a willingness to do things for people, being affable etc. Which are lovely attributes, but yes, quite different to Helen who I think was quite a complex character who was anxious and intolerant yet upbeat and a friend to everyone yet only on her own terms, she seemed to also be self-confessedly antisocial in person and confided in very few. I can imagine she might be quite difficult to live with but she was an amazing vivacious person with so much to give.

 

[cottonweaver]

if any help is needed with updates/tweets , I can post them til 12


[video=twitter;823471619502907393]https://twitter.com/CambridgeNewsUK/status/823471619502907393[/video]

 

[MillyM]

And we'rd off.

Week 3

Helen Bailey murder trial: Royston author's mother to give evidence as week three begins

Live updates from Royston author Helen Bailey murder trial at St Albans Crown Court
UPDATED10:03, 23 JAN 2017

More witnesses, including the mother of Royston author Helen Bailey, are expected to give evidence today in the trial of Ian Stewart, accused of murdering her.

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/helen-bailey-murder-trial-royston-12491486

 

[hunkerdown]

Something that has struck me is the similarity in use of language from something IS posted to Helen in the early days using the phrase 'in so many ways' he used it again in his appeal when she was missing. When he quoted the content of the supposed note left by Helen when reporting her missing on the 101 phone call it read 'please don't contact me in any way'. To me there is a real similarity here...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Alyce]

First post

Firstly, thanks for all the detailed updates and discussions. I’m based in Australia and my interest was first caught when Helen was missing and referred to as a young adult author (this is what I write). Out of curiosity I then read news reports and Helen’s blog and books and came to strongly identify with and feel a sense of connection to her – I’m not suggesting I’m special in this, I suspect one of Helen’s gifts as a writer was that she triggered these feelings in people! (And it’s so horribly horribly sad to say that in the past tense.) Emotionally I’ve fixated on this case as though it involves a friend or family member, so I’m glad to now find an outlet for the sadness, horror and strong wish for justice that I’m feeling.

As part of that, the question I think I’m fixated on trying to answer through reading all these details of evidence etc, is not who did it – I’ll allow due legal processes to take place, but from the facts reported find it hard to think it could be anyone other than the defendant – but why and how could he??? Perhaps acceptance of never fully understanding this, is part of the awful journey family and friends of victims must go through. With deep irony, if only they had Helen’s honest, perceptive voice to help them on that path. And the more optimistic slant is perhaps she already has, with her writings on coming to terms with other maddening questions of “why?” that she had around JS’s death.

To jump to a practical point, one thing I was wondering from the evidence so far (among many!) is about the piece of wood in the garage covering the cesspit hatch, allegedly painted to match with the garage. Was that piece of wood there before Helen’s death? If she didn’t typically park in the garage, is it something IS would have bothered inserting? If it was placed in the garage to cover the hatch directly after Helen’s death, then this seems an obvious trail of evidence that could lead to IS. Even if it was placed beforehand, what was the timing – was it around the time she started being drugged, eg any indication of pre-meditation for killing and using the cesspit for disposal?

Also, as regards the police difficulty with opening the hatch, looking at the wording referred to earlier of the police witness, the police seemed to refer specifically to the latch – could placing (or re-placing) the wood on top, then driving the jeep back and forth on top have bent or pressed the hinge/latch out of shape such that it became more difficult to open?

Hi Mayfly and :welcome4:

re the wood covering on the hatch/manhole cover. Initially it sounded as though this was some kind of separate pallet of wood that had been placed over the manhole cover, the assumption being that it was there to catch oil drips from a car. ( you get loads of those with a brand new Jeep !!! )
However, it seems from later evidence and pics, that this was actually a wooden insert which had been fitted into the top of the manhole cover and painted grey to match the garage floor. So could have been done by a previous owner as a way of making the cover look tidier and blend in with the garage floor.
Having said that, IS is very handy with a laser ( look at those clock videos on youtube ) so it would not have been beyond his skills to make such a thing and fit it to the cover. It would be most interesting to know when it was made.

 

[Squamous]

The hatch cover looked to me like a long standing thing. Otherwise there would be a pothole in the garage. It looks like it would be under the middle of the car rather than the wheels. I think the cover itself has appeared in court, bits fell off it onto the floor IIRC!