GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #11

[aneurin]

What you've all missed.

After the arrest of CJ proved to be a dead end, A&SC called in a 'forensic clinical psychologist' i.e. a profiler. He or she hasn't been named but has apparently "helped in several high-profile investigations". So whilst phase 1 of the inquiry involved A&SC doing all the standard police things; interviewing witnesses, trawling through CCTV, trying to interpret the forensics - all of which led them to CJ and no conclusion; in phase 2 they've been looking for a very specific someone, and likely re-examining a lot of the evidence they collected in phase 1, looking for traces of that someone.

Think like a profiler. Do some educated guess work and you might well be able to see how we have ended up where we are now. And remember that you're likely to be looking for a sociopath. The odds are that there was at least one in Jo Yeates's wider social circle.

I could be far more specific, but proceedings are active and much of what has been posted in this thread so far is clearly in Contempt of Court, and whilst Websleuth's servers might be in the USA, I'm not. So that is as far as I'm prepared to go at this stage. I'm going to patiently wait for the trial when many (and hopefully all) questions will be answered.

 

[SheDevil]

To "snap" I would suggest you would have to be "quiet" in the first instance.

CJ lived in the flat above VT, not Jo.

Noise anxiety has the possibility to manifest itself in aggressive behaviour.
Even had he approached the council beforehand this does not preclude VT taking matters into his own hands.

Google noise pollution murder and it will throw up plenty of cases. The noise doesn't even have to be loud. In one Swedish case the perp killed his neighbour because "his floor boards creaked"!

This is true. We moved into a new house almost two years ago. Our new neighbour who is known in the neighbourhood as Mr Nice Guy (constantly out talking to people on the street etc), had a bit of a culture shock as he had been used to our house being empty for over a year, and prior to that, an old lady lived here. When a family of four (2 adults, 2 kids) moved in, he was not used to the normal living noises a family of four makes - I'm not talking loud music, or late night vacuuming here - just normal everyday noises.

He started stopping my husband on the street, using threatening language. Such was our confidence that we were doing nothing wrong, we asked him to make a complaint to the local Environmental Health department, but he refused to. It eventually culminated in him attacking my husband in the street, the police were called and it was only through our good grace he wasn't arrested and taken away in handcuffs!

Others I've spoken to who know the guy say 'I'd have never thought it!' - and neither would I before it all happened! We all have something that makes us tick, and things can get distorted in the mind and blown out of all proportion.

I still don't think noise pollution was the trigger here though. I'm still going for crime of passion, whether that passion was reciprocated or not, I'm still unsure.

The trial will be very interesting.

 

[MMENJBRIT]

Hi Annuerin: I think the subject of Profiling and a possible Sociopath was discussed on this site... Don't quote me but I believe Sweep the Cat had gone into some detail with this....

What you've all missed.

After the arrest of CJ proved to be a dead end, A&SC called in a 'forensic clinical psychologist' i.e. a profiler. He or she hasn't been named but has apparently "helped in several high-profile investigations". So whilst phase 1 of the inquiry involved A&SC doing all the standard police things; interviewing witnesses, trawling through CCTV, trying to interpret the forensics - all of which led them to CJ and no conclusion; in phase 2 they've been looking for a very specific someone, and likely re-examining a lot of the evidence they collected in phase 1, looking for traces of that someone.

Think like a profiler. Do some educated guess work and you might well be able to see how we have ended up where we are now. And remember that you're likely to be looking for a sociopath. The odds are that there was at least one in Jo Yeates's wider social circle.

I could be far more specific, but proceedings are active and much of what has been posted in this thread so far is clearly in Contempt of Court, and whilst Websleuth's servers might be in the USA, I'm not. So that is as far as I'm prepared to go at this stage. I'm going to patiently wait for the trial when many (and hopefully all) questions will be answer

 

[Deckard]

This is true. We moved into a new house almost two years ago. Our new neighbour who is known in the neighbourhood as Mr Nice Guy (constantly out talking to people on the street etc), had a bit of a culture shock as he had been used to our house being empty for over a year, and prior to that, an old lady lived here. When a family of four (2 adults, 2 kids) moved in, he was not used to the normal living noises a family of four makes - I'm not talking loud music, or late night vacuuming here - just normal everyday noises.

He started stopping my husband on the street, using threatening language. Such was our confidence that we were doing nothing wrong, we asked him to make a complaint to the local Environmental Health department, but he refused to. It eventually culminated in him attacking my husband in the street, the police were called and it was only through our good grace he wasn't arrested and taken away in handcuffs!

Others I've spoken to who know the guy say 'I'd have never thought it!' - and neither would I before it all happened! We all have something that makes us tick, and things can get distorted in the mind and blown out of all proportion.

I still don't think noise pollution was the trigger here though. I'm still going for crime of passion, whether that passion was reciprocated or not, I'm still unsure.

The trial will be very interesting.

Why I think noise anxiety fits is the short timeline from her getting home and the screams occurring. It is one explosive emotion. Rage. From the moment he gets up to confront her to her death.

A crime of passion suggests he went to her door not in rage but in hopeful longing. After the rejection he does a complete 180 to killer.

 

[Deckard]

Can anyone remember who the tenant(s) of flat 1 were in the previous two years before they moved in?

ie who were VT's previous neighbours?

 

[veggiefan]

To "snap" I would suggest you would have to be "quiet" in the first instance.

People who "snap" in a violent way are usually those who not in control of their emotions. I don't think that that is unique to quiet people.

CJ lived in the flat above VT, not Jo.

True, but the RH wall of his flat is above the LH wall of JY's flat. I have little doubt that he would have been able to hear frequent loud music.

Sorry that you seem to object to me pointing out possible flaws in your theory. I think it could be quite possible with different people in different circumstances. I just don't think JY and GR would be the types to move into a posh and quiet area of Clifton with the intention of blasting out music over their speakers - and the retired types living in the house would surely have complained, if they had.

And I don't think VT is, from what we know, the sort of person who would strangle a neighbour because she wouldn't turn down the volume. Clever people think about the consequences of their actions and VT's studies and career are all about thinking through the consequences of his decisions as an architect. I think it's just possible that it may have been a crime of passion, but I'm not convinced it could have been an argument over the stereo. Sorry!

 

[Deckard]

The noise theory is purely conjecture on my part, of course it is, I wasn't there on the night of the 17th.

As SheDevil has pointed out, the noise doesn't have to be loud, just different to what you are used to.

It could quite well be a crime of passion. In my head those types of events tend to occur because of jealousy over previous ex b/f g/f's new relationships rather than getting rejected before a relationship starts but I could be wrong.

 

[otto]

VT is obviously a smart guy ... someone in the top 3% of the population brain-wise. For some reason, instead of being with his girlfriend this Friday night during Christmas season, she was at a party and he was at home after 7 PM. He may have had some tension or been emotionally upset because of the situation ... hard to say ... maybe he was stressed about something at work. Maybe the crying woman is someone from work that had also been somehow in a dangerous situation with VT. I've known exceptionally bright guys and they can have some problems with emotions. Although they are generally laid back with a dry sense of humor, they can also become argumentative and difficult when they are wrong about something, embarrassed because they got it wrong, or simply in a mood. Some of them like to be right all of the time. When faced with some sort of conflict, or situation where they don't get their way, it's almost like the switch is flicked and it's possible to see them holding themselves back - an inner struggle not to lose it. VT has been described as both introverted (keeping to himself, not forming close bonds) and social (he opened up and began sociallizing, organizing outtings, after meeting his girlfriend). I could see him having some difficulties expressing himself, and being in a situation where something; some innocent yet incorrectly perceived action or word, triggered him to attack Joanna.

 

[veggiefan]

I've known exceptionally bright guys and they can have some problems with emotions. Although they are generally laid back with a dry sense of humor, they can also become argumentative and difficult when they are wrong about something, embarrassed because they got it wrong, or simply in a mood. Some of them like to be right all of the time.

Yes, I agree that can be true of some people. The difficulty in this case is that nobody has a bad word to say about VT.

When a suspect is named in other murder investigations, it's not long before the press start discovering previous convictions, suspicious conversations, unexplained movements and so on. And if there's nothing factual to report, it doesn't take them long to find a few unattributable comments to sully the name of the suspect - as happened to CJ, of course.

In the case of VT, all of the comments are positive, without exception. We here try to think of possible reasons or opportunities he might have had, often based on incomplete evidence of his movements, or suppositions that he might have completely changed character for one dreadful moment.

But the fact remains that he is currently innocent, and other explanations for JY's death are possible.

 

[veggiefan]

Can anyone remember who the tenant(s) of flat 1 were in the previous two years before they moved in?

One previous occupant was the paedophile Stephen Johnston, who abused at least one boy in the flat concerned before being imprisoned for 7 years in 2008.

I don't know if there were other occupants after him, although I guess the flat might have been difficult to rent to locals for some time after that.

44 Carynge Road is going to be the ideal subject of a horror film in time to come - it even has a vague connection with the 1974 murder of Glenis Carruthers, and it certainly has the visual potential for a gothic horror story.

 

[veggiefan]

44 Carynge Road is going to be the ideal subject of a horror film in time to come

I was going to mention, although I think it might be too distasteful to do so in detail, a Cluedo-like scenario in which one person made the mistake of confessing ancient information to a trusted colleague who was a blabber-mouth (or who was overheard), resulting in the need to suppress this information before it reached the ears of LE. Implicating a totally innocent party would help muddy the waters.

Of course, this is total nonsense - just an idea for a gothic horror movie about that mysterious building!

 

[goldielox]

Yes, I agree that can be true of some people. The difficulty in this case is that nobody has a bad word to say about VT.

Or perhaps it's just a case that the press hasn't published anything from anybody who has had a bad word to say about him.

After the deplorable way the press set about CJ and the Attorney General then stepping in during the midst of all that, it could be that the press were very much on the super cautious side as to what they dared print once VT's name was thrown in to the frame...and of course once a suspect has been charged salacious stories about them in the press are curtailed then anyway.

If in due course VT is convicted then we can rest assured the press will have a field day then with CJ like stories about VT too. I personally suspect they already have a few negative snippets about him now, and are simply biding their time until the outcome of the trial. Mother Teresa aside, everybody has someone who doesn't like them, who's been upset by them..or done the upsettng, and VT will be no different.

The fact that so far there hasn't been one negative thing said leads me to think that had more to do with the AG's input than the fact that there was nothing negative to find.

 

[Deckard]

One previous occupant was the paedophile Stephen Johnston, who abused at least one boy in the flat concerned before being imprisoned for 7 years in 2008.

I don't know if there were other occupants after him, although I guess the flat might have been difficult to rent to locals for some time after that.

That's a good point. Although SJ was convicted in 2008 the offences happened between 1991 and 1994 before he sold the flat to CJ in 1999.

(article here at the bottom of the page http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...quizzed-police-12-hour-extension-granted.html)

So if VT had moved to Canynge Rd in 2008 he wouldn't have had SJ as a neighbour.

CJ himself came into a lot of money (£750k + in todays money) by virtue of two legacies left to him by relatives. This combined with his College pension meant that maybe he wasn't dependent on rental income from flat 1?

It would be good to know if VT had any previous neighbours and if they differed significantly from the GR/JY profile.

 

[whiterum]

I wonder why the killer chose Longwood Lane, was he familiar with it.
Could he be involved in 'The Bristol Trails Group' activities below.

Welcome to the website of the Bristol Trails Group.The Bristol Trails Group is a volunteer organisation run by mountain bikers.

We hold regular trail days when we maintain and improve the network of official mountain bike trails near Bristol City Centre.

We also act as a point of contact between the land managers and the mountain biking community.

We have no fixed membership and anyone is welcome to get involved, regardless of experience.

For trail days in Ashton Court, the best places to park are probably the Golf Course car park (if we're working on the side nearest the city) or the Longwood Lane entrance (if we're working on the far side). If you park at the Longwood Lane entrance, don't park in the layby near the quarry gates, as this is a clearway and you could get a ticket. Give the trail leader a ring and he'll let you in the gate so you can park inside the estate .

 

[goldielox]

One previous occupant was the paedophile Stephen Johnston, who abused at least one boy in the flat concerned before being imprisoned for 7 years in 2008.

I don't know if there were other occupants after him, although I guess the flat might have been difficult to rent to locals for some time after that.

44 Carynge Road is going to be the ideal subject of a horror film in time to come - it even has a vague connection with the 1974 murder of Glenis Carruthers, and it certainly has the visual potential for a gothic horror story.

I'm going from memory but didn't CJ buy the flat from SJ in 2001 ie seven years before SJ was convicted?

I'd like to know who was in the flat immediately prior to JY and GR taking it though.

 

[veggiefan]

After the deplorable way the press set about CJ and the Attorney General then stepping in during the midst of all that, it could be that the press were very much on the super cautious side as to what they dared print once VT's name was thrown in to the frame

I'm sure you're right. But in these days of the Internet, Twitter, Faceback and everything else, there is very little to stop someone such as an old school friend, university colleague, neighbour or work colleague posting something along the lines of "glad he's been caught, we were always suspicious of his outburst of temper / secrecy / double standards / or whatever?

Have you seen anything along those lines?

As far as I can see, the only significant places where his character has been questioned is on rather speculative bulletin boards such as this.

 

[whiterum]

As far as I can see, the only significant places where his character has been questioned is on rather speculative bulletin boards such as this.

But VT has been charged with the murder of JY by the police, which I'm sure is much more than just speculation. Also more damning on his character than anything that has ever been said here.

 

[naturally suspicious]

One previous occupant was the paedophile Stephen Johnston, who abused at least one boy in the flat concerned before being imprisoned for 7 years in 2008.

I don't know if there were other occupants after him, although I guess the flat might have been difficult to rent to locals for some time after that.

44 Carynge Road is going to be the ideal subject of a horror film in time to come - it even has a vague connection with the 1974 murder of Glenis Carruthers, and it certainly has the visual potential for a gothic horror story.

agree..have felt from the start that the setting and characters would be prime material for a film.
i can see americans loving the setting...the area round clifton college is beautiful...plus classic characters, beautiful and different...

 

[Cherwell]

I'm sure you're right. But in these days of the Internet, Twitter, Faceback and everything else, there is very little to stop someone such as an old school friend, university colleague, neighbour or work colleague posting something along the lines of "glad he's been caught, we were always suspicious of his outburst of temper / secrecy / double standards / or whatever?

Have you seen anything along those lines?

No, but I haven't really been looking, and I wouldn't understand it if it was in Dutch.

 

[naturally suspicious]

into this setting you have the murder of a young, privately-educated girl;exceptionally bad weather for the uk; the press, the landlord on bail, seedy characters from the past ie paedophilic teacher who owned the flat before jefferies, now serving a prison sentence; the closed world of public school teaching, etc ,etc....
it is all a different world and visually a very attractive one...