UK UK - Keith Bennett, 12, Longsight, Manchester, 16 June 1964

Discussion in '1960's Missing' started by Hugh, Sep 13, 2004.

  1. AGettler

    AGettler Active Member

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    I wonder about "life" means in the UK, Canada, and Aus. Seems killers can get out very quickly in these countries. In one podcast (don't recall which), first degree murder in Canada is almost never a charge for some reason.
     


  2. here if its just life then they give a minimum time to serve but we also have the full life tarrif which is like ur life with no parole. like any prison if ur especially good model prisoner they let u out uber early
     
  3. it has to be said the primary line of searching is in the shinny brook/hoe grain area as this is where myra hindley identified when she confessed finally. the problem is that myra was vague about a location as she was when locating pauline read. the police and doctors all said her confession was a scripted affair with her saying what she wanted others to hear and no more. she was as much of a lier and a devious person as ian and is thought to have been as manipulating as him as well in trying to locate keith whilst trying to distance herself from the crime.
    the area has been heavily explored as ian also returned to the moor and went to this area but gave up nothing new,infact the leading officer commented he thought he was just playing games. the moor is of a nature that as said by so many that it wouldnt take much to miss him by a few feet as they did with pauline read earlier in the 1980`s search only to locate her after a chance remark by myra. myra was vague in details and blamed her memory to be blanked out by the traumatic events when it came to exact locations.
    one thing occurred to me and its back to ians note book. ive been reading the transcripts from the magistrates court appearance and the trial.early on ian was questioned about john kilbrides name appearing in a list of"random"names. first as ive shown the names are not random they are a word game by ian ive "decoded"them.(the give away was they are not all names some are objects or descriptors)even ian played on the fact they were random. when questioned ian in reply said they are nothing,theres 2 pages more ripped out that were the same.i wonder if they revisited that note book now and had modern forensics examine the page after the last one removed would it have left an imprint of what was written on it. the doodle was written off as nothing except it had johns name in it,well ive proved it was something.what i wonder were the 2 missing pages.if they didnt recognize the doodle for what it was what else have they missed just because it didnt have a name directly on it.
     
  4. AGettler

    AGettler Active Member

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    Have the authorities found all of the places that are shown in the pictures of them while on the moors?
     
  5. its hard to say. when they were arrested the police took 149 photo negatives and 170 photo prints, and a photo album from the house. there was also the photos found in the suitcases they recovered from the railway station. .they had the idea ian had taken photos of grave sites from dave smith who said ian had told him he had photo proof he had murdered.they put that together with info from a girl they used to take up to the moor who identified the area around hollin brown knoll as the place they stopped so looked for photos they could match with that area. the first on was the 2 of ian and myra stood on a rock looking onto the moor. it was easy to locate that place if u know the area and was the rocks on top of hollin brown knoll. of course a search was started but despite a hell of a lot of digging they found nothing(u can see why if u look at the photos of the time they went for the most logical flat areas and the direction ian was looking.) they were actually very close as it turned out but had just about called it a day when the police officer saw the bone sticking out of a water filled depression in the peat moor off to the left of where they had been digging.they found lessley. they had of course the note book with john kilbrides name in it so assumed he was somewhere round there as well,they looked to match anymore photos to the area. the now well know photo of myra squat down looking at john kilbrides grave was matched to the area infact to an exact spot.( if you look at the published photo thats everywhere on the net its hard to actually locate the spot but that was a print from the negative done by ian and he had cropped the photo down. the police photo guy actually went back and made a full size print from the negative and having seen that myself you can walk straight to the location it contains so much info.)
    it is said and also ian at his trail said that they went through all the photos to identify the locations but its unclear if they ment the ones in the album and the suitcases or all the 300 or so photos and negatives. in the collection i belive from the album but dont quote me they found 2 other photos of myra in a similar squat pose holding puppet their dog. of course the thinking is the one know location is a grave marker so ian was asked about the other 2. the one that is available on the net ian said was taken at a place called snake pass which is part of a road that runs across the lower moor from manchester,the third they identified as possibly next to the gas pipeline that had been laid across the moor in 1963.that photo has never been released. at the time of the first searches when they found john kilbride they stopped any more searches as they found the only 2 children they had any proof ian and myra had any involvement with. the attitude of the police then was we have them they are going down for life job done. when the second searches were done after myras confession the policeman in charge wanted to dig the pipeline location but the gas line company wanted 10 million pounds insurance before any digging took place so that idea was shelved along with myras confession that keith was buried somewhere around hoe grain which is 2 miles or so from where the pipe line is.the one picture left that ian at his trial said was snake pass has never had its location found. all the other released photos have had their locations worked out. in the early years of their incarceration ian made myra make a great efforts to have certain photos returned to her via her mother for ian,ones that wernt used in the trial.the common thinking is that one of those contains some sort of clue he wanted as a trophy to remind him. all the photos returned to myras mother were copied so they knew what they returned. the thing to remember is that at that point they were fresh in jail and there was no evidence to link them to keith and obviously nothing obvious in the returned photos.it would take another 20 years for myras confession.
    keiths brother alan said a few years ago that they should sit down with those and the other photos and go through them all again but it seems the police like to either do it themselfs or no one does it and they dont have the resources.its thought that maybe in the locked cases ian left with his solicitor may be the photos he cherished. one train of thought is that with the ones he made of myra squat down with puppet only one was a real grave marker the other 2 were red herrings.of course he would know the one that mattered. he did the same when he hired the car for abducting john kilbride in that they hired one either side of that time they actually abducted john his thinking being it would look just like their normal thing and hide the real day in the innocent ones. for all his planning that was actual a stupid idea as all the police looked for was any cars hired around the date john went missing.
    the family have some photos taken by him of the area and gullies around hoe grain and shinny brook but it seems they are just views of the landscape with no give away clues. great if your the murderer u know what ur looking at but for a search all it does is suggest a location that is rather large.
    since the picture of myra squat down was released everyone has been trying to locate the place but theres not much to go on. it doesnt seem to be on the moor around where they have looked or are looking that has been explored to death. theres a chance that with time passing the location has changed as in land movement ect has covered the place and it no longer looks as it did.
    it has to be feared that like the "codes" they found in letters between myra and ian during their early prison years the information contained in a photo is known only to them.
    of all the photos recovered from them at the start some were and still are held as evidence,some locked from view untill 2040 ish i believe when if deemed right the national archive will release them. what happened to the rest im not sure if those as well were kept by the police, a small number as said were returned to the pair.knowing our police and their evidence storage they are probably all over the place and lost. it was said that when the second investigation was started they had so much trouble getting all the evidence together and it was in a right state.
     
  6. 005A47AA00000258-4516340-image-a-83_1495053613678.jpg 0183C4D60000044D-4510142-image-m-4_1494924293855.jpg myra1 (2).jpg
    The first photo is the one that led the police directly to john kilbrides grave.The second photo with myra in a similar pose but looking a later photo has never had its location discovered.The third photo is seemingly taken the same day as the first.This photo isn't seen much on the web but at the time the location was known. All 3 photos were in the tartan photo album recovered from myras house..The album is strange as some photos are repeated in it on different pages.
    just as a curiosity I re did what I see as the answers to the "doodle". I made an error or 2 as my copy was not good but now have a clear copy. (im about 20 years behind everyone else)..again you have to remember this is ian pondering what I now believe is the first two murders and just passing some time.The connection of the names ect to the actions may seem tenuous for some but its personal to him.He had a very good knowledge of films and music. The doodle was never intended as some clue to baffle the police he was just playing a word game.What u do see is a snap shot of a serial killer pondering at least 2 of his crimes..
    doodle revised.jpg
    ill see if I can finish it but it could be that say Christine foster (top of the doodle) was the barmaid in a pub in saddleworth it can be that personal to him!
     
  7. as a last comment the situation is.the family have an area of interest. myras story,the map she drew and logig point this area as the most likely..from here my theory of where and theirs differ..in the tarten album are photos indicating the 3 known murder locations.there are photos withheld by the police that one or more presumably show the same..thats all they need..wont ever get to see them so task ended.
     
  8. nearly forgot..these are some of the photos the police supplied to keiths brother earlier on in his search..my guess is they are from the tartan album..one appears to be myra stood I can only assume somewhere around hoe grain/shiny brook.. the photos are in the public domain as they featured in a documentary..
     

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  9. ill stick some others up from the infamous tartan album.this is the photo album found in ian brady`s house and contained incriminating photos.all these photos are public domain...
    first u can see 3 pages from the album 017,019,021-2...on each page is actually a photo relating to a known grave site which ive shown separately. .99 is looking almost directly at Lesly`s grave, j1 is looking over john kilbrides grave and in myra 2 she is stood on the rocks near the quarry facing towards where Pauline read was discovered.. if u compare this to the photo of her squat over john kilbrides grave u can see its almost certain they were taken on the same day..missing from the public domain are some pages from the album and odd photos from the allowed pages...what it suggests strongly is that each grave site had maybe at least 2 photos in the album.it also suggests that as lessly`s is shown and john kilbrides is shown then keith been in between them is also shown but all the suspected photos I believe are with held. as u can see 2 of the photos are long views (lessly and john) and the grave site is in the distance so I wonder if theres one similar for keiths grave.. a lot of the photos in the rest of the album are already on the net..if u look at page 021-2 you can see on the bottom left the photo of myra squat as in the one over johns grave that the location has yet to be found... to me the answer is beyond doubt in the photo`s with held you don't need anything else...
     

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  10. map that myra marked on where she thought she sat and google earth view of the local just as interest
     

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  11. ctaylor

    ctaylor Well-Known Member

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    Someone recently uploaded a rare BBC documentary from 2000 about Myra Hindley on YouTube. I do remember this being quite controversial at the time as Hindley had written letters to the producer and an actress reads them out. It was seen at the time as another attempt from her to try and show she had reformed and a sympathy grab. You can also hear Myra herself on an answerphone message and singing.

    It's here -
     
  12. Fede

    Fede Well-Known Member

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    What is the red dot on the map that Myra did? Is where she thought Keith´s grave was?
     
  13. AGettler

    AGettler Active Member

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    Good catch, it is not labeled and sticks out like it is something of possible significance.
     
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  14. Stella123

    Stella123 Well-Known Member

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    Hi there. Been on this forum a few weeks and remembering Keith Bennett was never found. Is it not possible today, to use technology on the moors to check for remains? Surely they have some kind of technology that would show/x ray buried remains? Assume they've already tried sniffer dogs.
     
  15. AGettler

    AGettler Active Member

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    The only method I am aware of them using is canvassing the area with people who poked sticks into the ground and then sniffed the stick for signs of putrefaction. I don't know about sniffer dogs.
     

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