Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen getting into taxi outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #8 *ARREST*

[PaddyOreally?]

Yes, that too. So in theory can (and do) the police contact all those people who they know to have been nearby that night? Or does data protection prevent them getting that information from telecom providers?

I think every phone for miles would have pinged that tower, theyll be thousands of numbers won't there?

 

[PaddyOreally?]

Also phone's only ping a tower when receiving a call or text or making one. Apart from that they only ping around every 8 hours I think depending on what network your on.
If you Google how often does my phone ping the towers it will tell you.

I doubt he had his phone on. Imagine accidentally calling someone mid murder. Way too risjy

 

[JustTryingToHelp]

Also phone's only ping a tower when receiving a call or text or making one. Apart from that they only ping around every 8 hours I think depending on what network your on.
If you Google how often does my phone ping the towers it will tell you.

I doubt he had his phone on. Imagine accidentally calling someone mid murder. Way too risjy

Yes, police knew the location of Sian O'Callaghan because her boyfriend sent her a text saying he was worried, it pinged as a result - and showed she was in the Savernake Forest (12 miles away from where she was supposed to be).

 

[Joolz1975]

Yes, police knew the location of Sian O'Callaghan because her boyfriend sent her a text saying he was worried, it pinged as a result - and showed she was in the Savernake Forest (12 miles away from where she was supposed to be).

Aww poor Sian. Her case has stuck with me more than any other I think.

 

[Sairzz]

Also phone's only ping a tower when receiving a call or text or making one. Apart from that they only ping around every 8 hours I think depending on what network your on.
If you Google how often does my phone ping the towers it will tell you.

I doubt he had his phone on. Imagine accidentally calling someone mid murder. Way too risjy

I didn't know this, what about smart watches, would they also send out a ping?

 

[mrjitty]

Also phone's only ping a tower when receiving a call or text or making one.

Not true.

It would be good if only accurate info was posted in the thread

For starters there are a number of apps that might make a data connection more frequently

Also if you are moving around.

 

[PaddyOreally?]

Not true.

It would be good if only accurate info was posted in the thread

For starters there are a number of apps that might make a data connection more frequently

Also if you are moving around.

It's different if he's got cellular data on but surely he'd turn that off ? Yes apps can connect to receive location data even when Gps is turned off but he would have his phone off wouldn't he?

 

[mrjitty]

Yes, police knew the location of Sian O'Callaghan because her boyfriend sent her a text saying he was worried, it pinged as a result - and showed she was in the Savernake Forest (12 miles away from where she was supposed to be).

This is not actually a ping as such

When you turn your phone on, it looks for a tower and "shakes hands" - i.e. a ping. This is how the network knows which tower you phone is connected to, and it can allocate network resources accordingly. e.g. if a phone call or text is inbound, the network automatically looks to the last tower your phone was seen at and tries to connect to the phone to pass the data or call. In this case, rather than a ping, there is the actual transmission of data.

There are quite a number of reasons why a phone might connect to a tower more frequently these days - e.g connecting to push data services like email, notifications etc etc

 

[mrjitty]

It's different if he's got cellular data on but surely he'd turn that off ? Yes apps can connect to receive location data even when Gps is turned off but he would have his phone off wouldn't he?

Well now we are into speculation.

If data/wlan/location is turned off, that limits a lot of things. But nevertheless if you are moving around the city with data off, your phone will still stay connected to the network, because it looks at signal strength ....

So if you move from one location to another, your phone may well shake hands with a new tower

 

[Miss_French]

IIRC from the Corrie case:

Cell phone towers can have a range of up to 70km, depending on the terrain. Micromasts, which are used as a less intrusive structure in built-up areas, have a range of a few hundred metres, but again this can be reduced by surrounding buildings. Phones connect when in range of a mast and not just during calls/texts. Hence the location of a phone can be identified more accurately in an area of micromasts.

There are very strict regulations about obtaining data from mobile providers. To prevent abuse of the system only certain police officers on a force have the authority to make a request from a provider and it can only be for specific phones of interest (victim, suspect, named witness). Plus in an urban area dozens/hundreds of phones can be connected to a provider and it's impractical to look at them all.

However, if the police physically have a phone they can download all data on it without a warrant, even items not of relevance to a crime, eg all text messages, not just ones between, say, a suspect and victim.

 

[mrjitty]

IIRC from the Corrie case:

Cell phone towers can have a range of up to 70km, depending on the terrain. Micromasts, which are used as a less intrusive structure in built-up areas, have a range of a few hundred metres, but again this can be reduced by surrounding buildings. Phones connect when in range of a mast and not just during calls/texts. Hence the location of a phone can be identified more accurately in an area of micromasts.

There are very strict regulations about obtaining data from mobile providers. To prevent abuse of the system only certain police officers on a force have the authority to make a request from a provider and it can only be for specific phones of interest (victim, suspect, named witness). Plus in an urban area dozens/hundreds of phones can be connected to a provider and it's impractical to look at them all.

However, if the police physically have a phone they can download all data on it without a warrant, even items not of relevance to a crime, eg all text messages, not just ones between, say, a suspect and victim.

Thanks!

it would not surprise me, given the "sat nav" business, if there is a data triangulation at least on the vehicle

 

[JustTryingToHelp]

This is not actually a ping as such

When you turn your phone on, it looks for a tower and "shakes hands" - i.e. a ping. This is how the network knows which tower you phone is connected to, and it can allocate network resources accordingly. e.g. if a phone call or text is inbound, the network automatically looks to the last tower your phone was seen at and tries to connect to the phone to pass the data or call. In this case, rather than a ping, there is the actual transmission of data.

There are quite a number of reasons why a phone might connect to a tower more frequently these days - e.g connecting to push data services like email, notifications etc etc

I watched a TV documentary on Sian last week and I'm just relaying the simple way it was explained by the programme.

Here's an interesting article from the New Yorker about cell phone data in relation to criminal cases. The law stuff is American, but the technical info should apply:

What Your Cell Phone Can’t Tell the Police

 

[sundaaaay]

Initially I thought LS fell in the drain mainly because its close proximity to her house, and thought she couldn’t walk far being so drunk. Then once I heard the report of the screams, I thought maybe she wasn’t actually that drunk and somehow fell or was pushed into the River Hull. I still think this is the most likely scenario, but I’m surprised they haven’t found anything. She seems to have not left the area so there’s not many places left to look, makes me wonder how secure the allotments are, PR definitely knows how to get into places he’s not supposed to.

 

[JustTryingToHelp]

Initially I thought LS fell in the drain mainly because its close proximity to her house, and thought she couldn’t walk far being so drunk. Then once I heard the report of the screams, I thought maybe she wasn’t actually that drunk and somehow fell or was pushed into the River Hull. I still think this is the most likely scenario, but I’m surprised they haven’t found anything. She seems to have not left the area so there’s not many places left to look, makes me wonder how secure the allotments are, PR definitely knows how to get into places he’s not supposed to.

The allotments are behind a high, locked gate.

 

[mrjitty]

I watched a TV documentary on Sian last week and I'm just relaying the simple way it was explained by the programme.

Here's an interesting article from the New Yorker about cell phone data in relation to criminal cases. The law stuff is American, but the technical info should apply:

What Your Cell Phone Can’t Tell the Police

Apologies

I just think people are using "ping" and actual data/voice connections interchangeably

A simple example. At our place we are equidistant between 2 4G towers aligned on the autobahn. However due to topography, one is stronger and is our home tower and I orientate our outdoor antenna to the east tower. When i turn on our router, both towers "see" my router. However we connect to the east tower not the west tower. This is how the network understands that my router is now on, and how to allocate 4G resource to it. The east tower allocates resource, the west tower does not.

However in the case when the west tower has an issue and I cannot connect to it, my router reconnects itself automatically to the east lying tower. I sometimes notice this when my 4G gets super slow.

All of this network activity is different to when my router is actually requesting data from the tower, or a call is inbound, or there is push data (e.g email, chat etc).

Now the same is true of my mobile, except more complicated.

If i walk west on the property, as signal strength decreases my phone will look to the closer west tower in preference and switch connection. It knows what towers are around, and finds the best one.

So there is a lot of potential ping happening, for someone driving in a car, with a mobile on, even with data off.

And if he had satnav on - was all his data of?

I can imagine him turning his phone off at some point, if he decided to attack libby, but did he have the foresight to do it from pickup?

Maybe not

 

[Quintet]

Also phone's only ping a tower when receiving a call or text or making one. Apart from that they only ping around every 8 hours I think depending on what network your on.
If you Google how often does my phone ping the towers it will tell you.

I doubt he had his phone on. Imagine accidentally calling someone mid murder. Way too risjy

Exactly my thoughts. Any murderer, abductor, burglar or sex pest is going to turn their phone off surely...

 

[HopeForGoodNews]

The allotments are behind a high, locked gate.

Maybe overthinking this and way off the mark but

1 Are the allotment gates accessible from Oak Road (do owners have a key to this gate ??)

2 Could you go into the park and come out further up nearer the allotments without being seen from the rear of houses

3 How close are the allotments to the houses?

Car behind alleged PRs in cobweb CCTV could be an accomplice to robberies and PR needed somewhere to hide some "stolen gear". Can I borrow the key, meet me Haworth Street etc. Obviously we don't see all of that CCTV so don't know who arrived there first or for definate if either of the cars were involved. If they weren't tracking him from the start he could have gone there the next day / later that night unless accomplice was fully involved and did any moving on.

I'm still of the theory that LS is being held somewhere and more than 1 person was involved (hopefully otherwise by now the outcome will not be good). I think I will until anything different is said.

 

[Nine Lives]

Aww poor Sian. Her case has stuck with me more than any other I think.

There's a good article in the Guardian about the detective who caught the guy who did that. It was very unusual (and brave imo) what he did and ultimately it cost him his career. There's a sad quote from him near the end of the article:

Although he is adamant he is not bitter, Fulcher does struggle to keep his emotions in check. And he has a warning. “At some point somebody is going to have to explain to the public what they can expect from the police service when their daughter goes missing,” he says. “And in general, right now, we will not get your daughter back.”

Fulcher wearily shakes his head, “We won’t get your daughter back.”

 

[HopeForGoodNews]

Exactly my thoughts. Any murderer, abductor, burglar or sex pest is going to turn their phone off surely...

But if he did put her postcode in his sat nav and it was a phone it possibly would have been on until he reached the park.

 

[PaddyOreally?]

Maybe overthinking this and way off the mark but

1 Are the allotment gates accessible from Oak Road (do owners have a key to this gate ??)

2 Could you go into the park and come out further up nearer the allotments without being seen from the rear of houses

3 How close are the allotments to the houses?

Car behind alleged PRs in cobweb CCTV could be an accomplice to robberies and PR needed somewhere to hide some "stolen gear". Can I borrow the key, meet me Haworth Street etc. Obviously we don't see all of that CCTV so don't know who arrived there first or for definate if either of the cars were involved. If they weren't tracking him from the start he could have gone there the next day / later that night unless accomplice was fully involved and did any moving on.

I'm still of the theory that LS is being held somewhere and more than 1 person was involved (hopefully otherwise by now the outcome will not be good). I think I will until anything different is said.

I don't even think that CCTV had anything to do with Libby anymore. Surely if it was the police would have said something about it? And they even said they didn't think it was him.