UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20

[Stumpyaura]

I'm trying to think of how his actions could be seen through the lens of 'innocent'....
He was out that evening and he noticed a girl who looked like she needed help. He didn't want to invade her space, so he followed her from a distance, just to keep his eye on her and make sure she was ok. When he saw her wandering into the Endsleigh centre grounds he crossed the road because he was worrried about her safety. He spoke to her and she was clearly not ok, so he offered to give her a lift to wherever she wanted to go. She got into the car and as they drove, she told him she'd direct him. Then it looked like she was going to be sick, so he stopped the car, they both got out, he for a wee, she to be sick and then she started to behave as if she'd like to have sex and she didn't seem so drunk anymore. So they did. Afterwards, she said she was going home and she walked off. He went home, but couldn't help but worry about her, so he returned to where they'd parted and she wasn't there, so he assumed she must have found her way home. The next day, people were talking about a misssing girl and he realised it was the same girl. He was scared, so he told a pack of lies to the people he spoke to about it, including the police. That she ended up dead and in the river, is nothing to do with him.

The problem with this presentation is that it isn't set into the context of his prior criminal activity, the multitude of lies he told since arrest and his actions either side of the event. He isn't a Sunday School teacher with no priors being accused of this.

 

[RubyLee87]

I’m struggling to believe he left Libby alive. I’ve followed similar cases where a violent rape was carried out and the victim has died during that rape, whether it was intentional or not. Violent men like this often lose control during the assault - they suffocate or choke the victim either through enjoyment or to suppress their screams. PR wouldn’t want Libby reporting him. If he’d left her alive, there’d be the risk of his previous sexual offences being exposed. She’d seen his face and could possibly have remembered details about his car. The fact that he cleaned the car and returned to the playing fields after the rape make me think he was either disposing of her body or cleaning up evidence. Also his lying speaks volumes. His crimes were escalating and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that he murdered Libby after assaulting her.

 

[jamjim]

10:46
Questions Prof Deakin asked to explore

• What would be the physical and mental impact on Libby on being exposed to the cold from 10.30pm to 12.09am?
• What would be the contribution of the alcohol impact on Libby?
• Would her decision-making be impaired as a result of the cold and alcohol?
• Would her vulnerability be affected by the cold, alcohol and any decision-making?
• Would her ability to defend herself from an assault be affected by the answers to the first four questions?

Libby Squire trial live: Latest updates from court

 

[jamjim]

10:51
Hypothermia explained
Professor Deakin says: "Hypothermia is the clinical term for cold body temperature. Normal body temperature is generally around 37C.

"The body fights very hard to get body temperature to normal so when the body’s temperature drops outside the normal range there are a number of processes to try and preserve heat loss.”

Libby Squire trial live: Latest updates from court

 

[HopeForGoodNews]

The issue with the car cleaning is how often do you see people clean their cars- for many it is a once in a blue moon occurrence. If you live on a terraced street, it will be very rare that you get parked directly outside your house, unless there is generally enough parking for everyone. I’ve lived in a nice cup de sac for five years- I have seen every neighbour in that time clean their car, but probably once or twice only in the five years (and I worked from home even before Covid)- my neighbour brings his motorbike out of the garage and then cleans his motorbike at the beginning of every month without fail. He said she was in his car that night, he has been accused of rape at the playing fields (so not in the car)- what are we surmising get cleaned from his car and the purpose of its relevance?

Could the rape have happened in the car? But I think the main point here is another lie has been exposed as he said he hadn't cleaned his car for over a month but clearly he had.

 

[Cherwell]

I don't know if the Professor will bear me out, but I think Libby could have been starting to sober up by the time they were at ORPF. A shock or fright can sober you up quite fast. So I don't see her falling into the river by accident.

 

[Winterbells]

The problem with this presentation is that it isn't set into the context of his prior criminal activity, the multitude of lies he told since arrest and his actions either side of the event. He isn't a Sunday School teacher with no priors being accused of this.

Of course, you're right, but his prior criminal activity, appalling as it is, has not included rape or murder, the lies (as I said) could be explained by fear and stupidity and his actions on either side of the event, by which I assume you mean the drone activity, and the car washing, aren't indicative of anything much. The fact that he was masturbating in the street soon after interacting with Libby, could just indicate that nothing particularly dramatic had happened that evening, as far as he knew, and he was just back to his usual antics.

 

[jamjim]

10:55
Libby was badly exposed to the cold
Professor Deakin says a third of Libby’s body was directly exposed to temperatures of -2C on January 31 which is a “significant amount".

Libby Squire trial live: Latest updates from court

 

[Winterbells]

10:46
Questions Prof Deakin asked to explore

• What would be the physical and mental impact on Libby on being exposed to the cold from 10.30pm to 12.09am?
• What would be the contribution of the alcohol impact on Libby?
• Would her decision-making be impaired as a result of the cold and alcohol?
• Would her vulnerability be affected by the cold, alcohol and any decision-making?
• Would her ability to defend herself from an assault be affected by the answers to the first four questions?

Libby Squire trial live: Latest updates from court

'Decision making' suggests to me that the defence are going to go for 'she got into the car willingly, had sex with PR willingly and walked away willingly'

 

[jamjim]

10:59
Alcohol increases risk of hypothermia
Professor Deakin says dehydration can add to heat loss and alcohol “is known for its dehydrating effects.”

He said: “Alcohol itself can contribute to hypothermia primarily it limits the effectiveness of the constriction of blood vessels, so the body is less able to control heat loss.”

Libby Squire trial live: Latest updates from court

 

[Newthoughts]

I said opportunity crime not murder
"A crime of opportunity is a crime that is committed without planning when the perpetrator sees that they have the chance to commit the act at that moment and seizes it. Such acts have little or no premeditation."
Thats what I'm thinking saying opportunity crime
In my opinion he didnt plan rape her and kill her
And to make it clear I'm not defending him
I just think if I would be in his shoes(prosecuted for murder) I would like to judges base they verdict on facts( evidence) not they imagination and at the moment there is not knowing what cause her death(no deadly injures)and time they spend together on the field was very short. In my opinion too short for rape ,killing and disposing body
Thats all
Maybe I change my opinion when new facts appears but at the moment I'm not 100% sure he murder her

His previous convictions have been allowed. The judge did not accept them as opportunistic in 2019 which is why he got 8 1/2 years.

His behaviour before and after the event has been detailed. Very little can be explained in terms of random opportunity.

There is no reason to go to a dark park - it's dark. No reason to prowl around student areas in the dark. They are just houses. No reason to have books of student housing - he isn't a student and should he be planning to become one he's already lives close

An opportunistic crime happens when you happen upon an opportunity. You see an old lady on your way to Tesco in the dark. It's quiet you hit her over the head killing her just to grab her purse. Before you have time to think.

Many 'opportunistic' rapes occur within feet of where the person is grabbed.

His first opportunity to sieze the moment and rape was the Endsleigh Centre. There I would have to agree - it would be difficult to say it wasn't an opportunistic rape. There are sadly lots of rapes like that. Quiet dark. He's quick.

Or once he'd got her into his car. Another opportunity. No forethought - nearest spot and then panic about the consequences afterwards


He didn't. He stalked Libby up the road into a site of opportunity and didn't take it. He controlled that impulse.

Then he put her into his car. Another random site of opportunity he didn't take

Then he deliberately drove Libby to a isolated spot with a tidal river that he'd been to before. No random driving looking for the nearest spot. Already deemed suitable

Then witness evidence of screaming and him running suggests he took her further into that park past several more opportunistic spots.

Only then does the witness statements suggest he raped her.

Plenty of time to stop and think I won't rape her. Opportunity was there in the Endsleigh Centre or shortly after getting her into his car. But he had the foresight to take her elsewhere - somewhere with a river.

Planning does not have to take months. He had ample time to change his mind.

According to witnesses he entered the park with her. Again chances to change his mind. He was not seen leaving whilst she was screaming. Three bursts of screaming over a period of time.

Each one an opportunity to stop and leave her alone whilst still screaming. Why didn't he?

A Witness sees him leaving AFTER those screams have stopped. Why have they stopped? Why didn't he leave before they stopped? What was he doing between them stopping and being seen leaving?

Even if he had left her unconscious - that would be as a result of an act of violence that he could have stopped. That nobody was forcing him to do.
If that would still result in her probable death I'm sure that counts as murder.

Those are the facts that I would consider.

 

[jamjim]

11:09
Expert explains more about effects of hypothermia
Professor Deakin says as the body gets colder, the effects of hypothermia get worse.

He says early symptoms include shivering, numb areas of the body that are exposed, poor coordination and unsteadiness,changes in behaviour (that could be a lack of interest in their environment, poor judgement and some degree of confusion.)

Professor Deakin says if the body temperature drops below 32C, the effects of hypothermia become more pronounced.

He says: “The shivering will be intense, the coordination will be quite marked and people will look unsteady, speaking and speech is likely to be impaired and judgement more so.”

Libby Squire trial live: Latest updates from court

 

[Winterbells]

Just playing Devil's advocate here, @Newthoughts
His previous crimes were very different to rape and murder. Not one of them involved stalking or physical contact with women. He's a menace to women, of course, but in a very specific way. All of his roaming around in the dark and researching studenty areas can be explained by his obsession with publicly masturbating etc. He was in the park having sex with Libby. She walked away. He was heading back to his car and heard a load of screaming. It scared him. He hastened back to his car and left. He thought about it later and returned because he was worried about what could have happened to Libby. I'm sure this is what his defence counsel will claim, or something similar.

 

[jamjim]

Professor Charles Deakin | Medicine | University of Southampton

This is Professor Charles Deakin, BTW!

 

[JosieJo]

I’m struggling to believe he left Libby alive. I’ve followed similar cases where a violent rape was carried out and the victim has died during that rape, whether it was intentional or not. Violent men like this often lose control during the assault - they suffocate or choke the victim either through enjoyment or to suppress their screams. PR wouldn’t want Libby reporting him. If he’d left her alive, there’d be the risk of his previous sexual offences being exposed. She’d seen his face and could possibly have remembered details about his car. The fact that he cleaned the car and returned to the playing fields after the rape make me think he was either disposing of her body or cleaning up evidence. Also his lying speaks volumes. His crimes were escalating and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that he murdered Libby after assaulting her.

Its definitely not unreasonable to think he killed her ...but just not without reasonable doubt

I think if we compare how many stranger violent rapes occur without an ending of murder im not sure death would be the most common ending?

 

[jamjim]

11:17
Libby could have remained alive for an hour in the River Hull
Professor Deakin estimated the water temperature of the River Hull and concluded it was unlikely to be more than 10C.

He then “went on to consider if a conscious individual entered water at that temperature, on a standing basis” and estimated how long they would remain conscious before succumbing to exhaustion.

Professor Deakin estimated they would remain conscious for 30 to 60 minutes.

He said he estimated that person would die within one to three hours of being exposed to water at that temperature.

He added: “Looking at the effects of alcohol and she (Libby) was cold when she got in, if that happened, perhaps 30 minutes before she lost consciousness and around one hour before death occurred.”

Libby Squire trial live: Latest updates from court

 

[JosieJo]

10:46
Questions Prof Deakin asked to explore

• What would be the physical and mental impact on Libby on being exposed to the cold from 10.30pm to 12.09am?
• What would be the contribution of the alcohol impact on Libby?
• Would her decision-making be impaired as a result of the cold and alcohol?
• Would her vulnerability be affected by the cold, alcohol and any decision-making?
• Would her ability to defend herself from an assault be affected by the answers to the first four questions?

Libby Squire trial live: Latest updates from court

I think this will be a difficult one ...because all of factors here that help prove the rape also increase her liklihood of accidentally falling into the river ...thats if the defence even go this route which is not confirmed yet

 

[jamjim]

11:26
Prof Deakin answers the five questions of effects of hypothermia and alcohol on Libby
What would be the physical and mental impact on Libby on being exposed to the cold from 10.30pm to 12.09am?

• “I estimated her core temperature would have been approaching 35C. Based on that, I thought she certainly subjectively would have felt very cold, she would have been shivering, suffering from numb hands and fingers, her coordination would have been impaired, she is likely to have been unsteady on her feet, and likely to have felt tired. I think it’s likely that and the alcohol would have impaired her judgement and she would have felt confusion.”

What would be the contribution of the alcohol impact on Libby?

• “As I’ve alluded to, someone who has been drinking is likely to get colder more quickly and it would have accentuated the conditions in terms of the speed she got cold and the temperature her body had dropped to.”

Would her decision-making be impaired as a result of the cold and alcohol?

• “Yes, both on their own are likely to have impaired her decision-making significantly and combined would have significantly impaired it. To me, [her behaviour] would all be in keeping with someone who has poor decision making.”

Libby Squire trial live: Latest updates from court

 

[jamjim]

11:27
Questions continued
Would her vulnerability be affected by the cold, alcohol and any decision-making?

• “Yes. I concluded she would be very vulnerable to a number of threats. Firstly, environmental threats - so the cold weather. Secondly, impairments in her own behaviour and thirdly to threats from other individuals who may approach her, in terms of assessing their intent and interactions with other individuals.”

Would her ability to defend herself from an assault be affected by the answers to the first four questions?

• “I concluded she would have limited ability to physically defend herself. Firstly, she would have significantly reduced sense of awareness and not getting into an unsafe situation. Secondly, she would likely have impaired ability because she has been weakened by the cold and thirdly, she would be limited of escape just by the physical act of running away, because of the poor coordination.”

Libby Squire trial live: Latest updates from court

 

[Vermont24]

Go, Prof Deakin!