GUILTY UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, teaching asst, found deceased, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *teen arrested* #5

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I've been watching this case since the beginning as a fellow Lancastrian and also as someone working in an autism-specialist service for young adults. The TV show brought it back to my thoughts. It's important to remember that once you've met one person with autism; you've met one person with autism. The guys I work with couldn't be more different from each other (some with learning disabilities; some without). It was mentioned earlier that someone worked with people with ASD who are unable to lie which is very different to my experience. Many of the people I support are FANTASTIC liars and can run rings around the most experienced of us. These lies can be elaborate, intricate and self-serving. At the same time there are a couple who would never lie and would just refuse to answer should you be aware they don't want to say something. Empathy is also a huge variable; some of our guys are incredibly empathetic to the point where it would cause a 'melt-down' should they think they've upset someone/not done the right thing but we also have people who display pretty sociopathic personality types who really do not entertain or recognise emotions in others.

The fact that someone speaks very little or 'one word answers' doesn't make them non-verbal. Many people with ASD do not 'see the point' in small talk and just say what needs to be said.

I imagine the shoe cutting is something to do with an issue with laces; that is a pretty common occurrence amongst even the 'higher functioning' of our guys. Fine motor skills & proprioception are regular issues.

The plastic sheeting was likely to be the same plastic sheeting that travellers use within their homes to protectively cover sofas.
 
Whitehall 1212 said:
Don't hold back.......
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Well I went out for a walk the other day and ended up at the coppice (wasn’t my plan to end up there but obviously reminded me of the case). After which I started reading the threads on here and watched the documentary but one thing didn’t make sense to me. RP was seen pulling a bin on to the coppice. And then taking it to the cemetery.

On the CCTV the bin looks new and is clean. If that had been dragged on to the coppice it would have been muddy or have grass on it. So I went for another walk after figuring out the route he had been with the bin. And working out the way LB was said to have headed.

ZB had mentioned seeing someone on the coppice following her before she left the coppice. That would place RP towards the entrance of the coppice at the top of Peel Park Ave (the route LB was taking). So I walked that way and thought what about if LB had seen RP at that entrance and felt wary so turned left to walk down the lane to the side of the coppice (highlighted with the larger blue and red circles), changing her route but not making it obvious to RP that she was bothered by him. The lane ends up in a dark ally section and there is what looks like an allotment/back yard next to some garages. I have marked out on the attached map my thoughts although ZB could have left out of a different entrance but did come down cardiac lane from what I have read. I would imagine she did not pass LB as she would have mentioned the man in the hoodie to her (most probably). As the bin has no dirt on it that makes me believe that whatever happened was in the circle on the map. As just after that section there is a very muddy area that would have affected the bin wheels. And would have made obvious tracks to show the direction he had been with the bin. The fence is also bent over so the bin could have been leant on it to move the body. The other point is that if you look at the direction that LB took she avoided the ally even though that is the shortest route. I must say I felt uneasy walking down it! There was some plastic sheeting in the garden area just past the fence which also made me feel uneasy and the area is very overgrown. That also feels to me like there could still be evidence there if the police were concentrating on her going on to the coppice. I may well be wrong though, and it’s all circumstantial!
 

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Elmobram23 said:
Well I went out for a walk the other day and ended up at the coppice (wasn’t my plan to end up there but obviously reminded me of the case). After which I started reading the threads on here and watched the documentary but one thing didn’t make sense to me. RP was seen pulling a bin on to the coppice. And then taking it to the cemetery.

On the CCTV the bin looks new and is clean. If that had been dragged on to the coppice it would have been muddy or have grass on it. So I went for another walk after figuring out the route he had been with the bin. And working out the way LB was said to have headed.

ZB had mentioned seeing someone on the coppice following her before she left the coppice. That would place RP towards the entrance of the coppice at the top of Peel Park Ave (the route LB was taking). So I walked that way and thought what about if LB had seen RP at that entrance and felt wary so turned left to walk down the lane to the side of the coppice (highlighted with the larger blue and red circles), changing her route but not making it obvious to RP that she was bothered by him. The lane ends up in a dark ally section and there is what looks like an allotment/back yard next to some garages. I have marked out on the attached map my thoughts although ZB could have left out of a different entrance but did come down cardiac lane from what I have read. I would imagine she did not pass LB as she would have mentioned the man in the hoodie to her (most probably). As the bin has no dirt on it that makes me believe that whatever happened was in the circle on the map. As just after that section there is a very muddy area that would have affected the bin wheels. And would have made obvious tracks to show the direction he had been with the bin. The fence is also bent over so the bin could have been leant on it to move the body. The other point is that if you look at the direction that LB took she avoided the ally even though that is the shortest route. I must say I felt uneasy walking down it! There was some plastic sheeting in the garden area just past the fence which also made me feel uneasy and the area is very overgrown. That also feels to me like there could still be evidence there if the police were concentrating on her going on to the coppice. I may well be wrong though, and it’s all circumstantial!
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Your assumption of ZB's route and where she saw RP is incorrect. Review the statement of her evidence from the trial together with a map and you will be able to follow the route she took and the adjacent paths that she saw RP whilst on her walk. I know there was comment on WebSleuths about this, I believe with supporting annotated maps, during the trial as ZB gave her evidence.

Remember that this offence took place in early August, when the ground was much drier. The ground conditions in October 2021 are not representative of those in early August 2019. Therefore your assertion about dirt on the bin does not hold water.

The alleyway you mention, the adjacent Whittakers Arms pub and the area of the sheds behind the Whittakers Arms were searched comprehensively by police. No crime scene was ever established, nor where the body was kept post mortem prior to being moved to the cemetery.

There was somewhat disturbing CCTV footage of someone (RP) carrying a bag, coming from the area of the 'chicken sheds' late at night, adjacent to the rear service road that ran along the back of LB's home address, and heading in the direction of Burnley Road and the Cemetery. I believe it was the evening of the day that LB was last seen.

I recall that my thoughts were that LB may have been attacked in the dark alleyway you mention, possibly whilst returning from the Coppice. RP may have been following LB on the Coppice, like he did ZB. LB may have realised that that she was running late to get back for her daughter, who was due to come for tea at Lindsay's with her boyfriend, and she took the alleyway as a more direct route rather that Peel Park Avenue. RP may have followed and attacked LB in the alleyway.

The field with the various sheds, behind the Whittakers Arms, is adjacent to the alleyway and RP may have been able to move LB into that area to return later with the plastic sheeting, saw, knife and bin. As I said before, someone was seen on CCTV leaving from the field much later that night. I believe this is where LB was kept before being moved.

Like so many of these terrifying offences, we and more importantly the family, are unlikely to ever know the full facts of what took place. This is either because the killer has compartmentalised the event in their memory or as is often the case with narcissistic/psychopathic killers, they use it as a form of control over those left behind, which tells you all you need to know about their lack of empathy and any remorse.
 
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I’m sure many people have thought over this and have their own theories. I was just putting mine out there not that it makes much difference now anyway because for me the guilty party got the justice that was deserved. I think I always thought other parties were involved but having seen the alleyway now I’m not so sure.
 
Elmobram23 said:
I’m sure many people have thought over this and have their own theories. I was just putting mine out there not that it makes much difference now anyway because for me the guilty party got the justice that was deserved. I think I always thought other parties were involved but having seen the alleyway now I’m not so sure.
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Absolutely, plenty of theories were bouncing around. I don't think RP transported LB from the Coppice. It would have been hard work and a huge chance of being seen. Now that alleyway is, I suspect, not used a great deal. The pub was closed for renovation at the time also.

Absolutely right it makes no odds. Right offender locked up, although there were a hardcore of wild theories at the time from those who didn't think RP could have acted alone and a third party must have been involved. With all his coming and going between the Whittakers Arms area, the cemetery and his home (traveller site), he was very much a one man band.

ZB's evidence from first trial on thread 3, page 17, from 10:43 hours. This describes her route and what she saw.
 
Ah I think I missed that. I was going off what I heard in the documentary. Defo it would have been to easy to have been caught transporting a body. Even leaving that dark alley area I saw 4 people (two dog walkers) but none of them carried on down that ally way area. I think the “wet knees” made me think about the muddy area and the bin because any heavily vegetated area will hold water. But you are right I can’t say it must have been muddy cause it was when I was there.
 
Elmobram23 said:
Ah I think I missed that. I was going off what I heard in the documentary. Defo it would have been to easy to have been caught transporting a body. Even leaving that dark alley area I saw 4 people (two dog walkers) but none of them carried on down that ally way area. I think the “wet knees” made me think about the muddy area and the bin because any heavily vegetated area will hold water. But you are right I can’t say it must have been muddy cause it was when I was there.
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Welcome Elmo, I see someone has pointed out ZB outlined a different route at the trial. I thought that LB had been attacked somewhere close to shrubbery and her body hidden until dark. It was August and she was meeting her daughter for tea so it can't have been dark when she would have been heading back. I was one of the sceptics that though RP wasn't capable of carrying out the murder but nothing further seems to have come to light.
 
I think it’s just the time scales made me think she’d not even made the coppice. Obviously I don’t have all the facts but I just imagined a situation where she never made it to the coppice and everything happened down the lane.
 
Thelastleg said:
There was a poster on here who seemed to have a law background. If I recall correctly they tried to join the FB group but it was a closed group. I wondered if they ever made contact. I felt the family needed a bit of guidance if an appeal was likely. Having said that the jury maybe heard more evidence than was reported by the press.
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I know it's been a while since you posted but I've just come across these later comments.

In terms of appeal. An appeal against conviction will have been lodged by RP's solicitor if there had been a breach In court procedure. When this happens it is often from a challenge to the Judges directions to the jury before they are sent off to deliberate their verdict. There were no such concerns.

RP's solicitor could also have appealed the length of sentence if it was felt to be unduly harsh.....it wasn't!

The conviction cannot be appealed based on not agreeing with the jury's verdict, since they have reached their verdict based on the evidence.

In his prepared statement RP's defence was that an 'unknown' (not seen before/since) man asked him to dispose of the body.

The jury decided that all that RP said happened regarding the 'unknown' man, didn't happen. If something different happened then RP should have said so, in which case that defence will have been tested based on the evidence.

The only way in which an application can be made for the conviction to be overturned is for there to be 'new and compelling' evidence that RP did not murder LB. It must be evidence that was not available at the time of the original trial and boy it will have to be good.

If that happened, and it is not a straightforward process, either RP would have a retrial for the murder or the CPS would choose not to go to another trial.

The key thing that must be understood is that RP's declared defence was tested based on the evidence, not any other scenario that any of us would advance, i.e. Someone RP knew....family or someone known to LB......it doesn't work like that.

The reason that some young buck or doe of a barrister, wanting to make a name for themself, hasn't offered their services is that there is no basis for an appeal.

RP's family don't understand this because they are not the sharpest tools in the box but are of the view they can just lodge an appeal as they don't agree with the jury. Not so!
 
Whitehall 1212 said:
I know it's been a while since you posted but I've just come across these later comments.

In terms of appeal. An appeal against conviction will have been lodged by RP's solicitor if there had been a breach In court procedure. When this happens it is often from a challenge to the Judges directions to the jury before they are sent off to deliberate their verdict. There were no such concerns.

RP's solicitor could also have appealed the length of sentence if it was felt to be unduly harsh.....it wasn't!

The conviction cannot be appealed based on not agreeing with the jury's verdict, since they have reached their verdict based on the evidence.

In his prepared statement RP's defence was that an 'unknown' (not seen before/since) man asked him to dispose of the body.

The jury decided that all that RP said happened regarding the 'unknown' man, didn't happen. If something different happened then RP should have said so, in which case that defence will have been tested based on the evidence.

The only way in which an application can be made for the conviction to be overturned is for there to be 'new and compelling' evidence that RP did not murder LB. It must be evidence that was not available at the time of the original trial and boy it will have to be good.

If that happened, and it is not a straightforward process, either RP would have a retrial for the murder or the CPS would choose not to go to another trial.

The key thing that must be understood is that RP's declared defence was tested based on the evidence, not any other scenario that any of us would advance, i.e. Someone RP knew....family or someone known to LB......it doesn't work like that.

The reason that some young buck or doe of a barrister, wanting to make a name for themself, hasn't offered their services is that there is no basis for an appeal.

RP's family don't understand this because they are not the sharpest tools in the box but are of the view they can just lodge an appeal as they don't agree with the jury. Not so!
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Thank you. I've worked in the Legal Sector for 17 years and am familiar with Criminal cases. I understand the process, but at that time, the reporting of the case was scant. I completely understand why there can't be an appeal. I have my own opinions of why RP was convicted of the murder based on circumstantial evidence and not just pcoj and hiding a dead body. I can accept that the jury found him guilty of murder based on sufficient evidence, In the future RP might have another story to tell or he might not. All MOO
 
Elmobram23 said:
I think it’s just the time scales made me think she’d not even made the coppice. Obviously I don’t have all the facts but I just imagined a situation where she never made it to the coppice and everything happened down the lane.
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We spent a lot of time wondering if she made the coppice, however we know she did, as there was shrubbery/soil found with her body that was from the coppice.
 
Well after days I’ve been through all the pages of this case on here since she went missing. You guys are exceptionally thorough and I think my post was in fact wrong but now am thinking of a couple of other scenarios. I think I’ll head back up to the coppice at some point and see if what I think would make sense. Thanks for all the insight on here. You guys are a great community!
 
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