UK -Major incident declared - UK anti-terror police investigating possible nerve agent attack

Discussion in 'Up to the Minute' started by CARIIS, Jul 4, 2018.

  1. Ellmau

    Ellmau Well-Known Member

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    The BBC reported that they both showed signs of contamination on one hand each. Was it perhaps a large item they picked up together? (But if large, what happened to it?)
     
  2. jiminy

    jiminy Well-Known Member

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    That part doesn't hang right for me. Both of them only used one hand?

    Say it's a phial or container, but any unfamiliar thing, really. You turn it round/over to see what it is. For me it's natural to use both hands. One to steady, and one to turn. It would take effort to use one. Even if it was dirty.
     
  3. Inthedetails

    Inthedetails Well-Known Member

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    Someone upthread mentioned a lighter. I can envision only using one hand when handling a lighter.

    Just a thought.

    Like others have said, this incident does remind me of the tainted Tylenol case from years ago. Not exactly the same in terms of details, but the same vibe.

    jmo
     
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  4. jiminy

    jiminy Well-Known Member

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    I missed that. Now you've got me thinking about those 'stash' Clipper lighters you used to get (probs still do) that had a compartment inside.
     
  5. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    Novichok death increases pressure on police
    "It may well be that it was Ms Sturgess who came into first contact and Mr Rowley received secondary contamination from her, but that remains to be confirmed."

    "It could be some kind of syringe or small glass container but could look like an everyday item like a perfume bottle."

    "Finding it will be crucial on a number of levels.
    Firstly, for allaying fears over public safety. It would allow local residents to have greater confidence that there is not still something lying around which could lead to others falling ill".
    "It could also be a crucial clue in the Skripal investigation."

    Finding the item might allow tests to be carried out at Porton Down to see if it is possible to establish that the Amesbury case is not just the result of the same nerve agent - Novichok - but the same specific batch used against the Skripals."
    "Further intelligence - including Russia having allegedly tested using nerve agent on door handles, which is how the Skripals are believed to have been poisoned - backed up that argument."
     
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  6. Lizzack1

    Lizzack1 Active Member

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    That’s an interesting detail. Even though using a lighter is a one handed job, I still find it hard believe that neither would have handled a lighter with one hand only. Not to mention repeated use of a lighter.

    Any other ideas of an interaction with something that both would only use one hand for?
     
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  7. jjenny

    jjenny Well-Known Member

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    This just gets weirder and weirder.
     
  8. jjenny

    jjenny Well-Known Member

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    Well, anybody could be picking it up, since they seem to have no clue as to what it was.
     
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  9. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    Accepting an advertisement flyer, money, bottle of water/ beer, cigarette - shaking someone's (gloved) hand, turning on a water drinking fountain, flushing a toilet, pressing an elevator button, opening a door???
    speculation, imo.
     
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  10. Inthedetails

    Inthedetails Well-Known Member

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    Yes. My comment was in reply to a a previous post.

    jmo
     
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  11. jjenny

    jjenny Well-Known Member

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    Neither of these would work if they are claiming this was poison left from Skripals poisoning.
     
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  12. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    Novichok victim Dawn Sturgess wore 'contaminated' sunglasses found in park before collapsing
    "NOVICHOK victim Dawn Sturgess wore sunglasses she found in a park hours before collapsing.

    Cops are still trying to find a case they think held the nerve agent that killed her."

    "Craig Pattenden, 38, and Sam Hobson, 29, were with them when they took a bus from Salisbury to Amesbury on Friday evening. Sam, from Amesbury, said: “She found some sunglasses on Friday and started wearing them.

    “On the bus back she was saying to me and Craig, ‘Do you like my new sunglasses? I found them’. I think it was in the park.”

    Dawn and Charlie were known to pick up cigarette butts. But it is thought Novichok on a discarded fag from the poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal in March would have degraded."
     
  13. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    rbbm
    Family of woman killed by novichok nerve agent speak out for the first time
    "Public Health England has advised people in the Amesbury and Salisbury areas not to “pick up any foreign object which could contain liquid or gel, in the interests of their own safety''

    Chief Medical Officer Dame Sally Davies said: “This in practice means do not pick up containers, syringes, needles, cosmetics or similar objects, made of materials such as metal, plastic or glass.

    “This is particularly important as families are starting to prepare for their children's summer holidays and so I am asking that people are extra vigilant. To be clear: do nsot pick up anything that you haven't dropped yourself.”
     
  14. drama_farmer

    drama_farmer "It's never just a mannequin"

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    Whether tied to the Russians or not (afaik, no hard evidence, per NPR broadcast I heard yesterday), the slapdash, sloppy and careless handling of the poisoning agent (if that is, in fact the case) can be compared to the mission to assassinate Alexander Litvinenko in 2006.
    They left polonium trails all over London, and apparently disposed of "extra" radioactive materials by tossing them down the drain :eek: in hotels!

    This is a fabulous podcast episode that gives a blow-by-blow of the bungling Russian agents' movements (and subsequent physical evidence trails). It's from"The Murder Mile True Crime Podcast." I recommend this podcast to any true crime fans who appreciate a deep dive and an engaging narrative style.

    For a quick overview, scroll down to "Polonium Trails" in this wiki article:
    Poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko - Wikipedia
     
  15. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    British woman said to have been poisoned with Novichok is remembered as 'gentle soul' | CBC News
    [​IMG]

    "Salisbury Hospital, where the Skripals were treated, said Tuesday that Rowley has experienced a "small but significant improvement" and is now conscious. The 45-year old is in critical but stable condition.

    Sturgess and Rowley were hospitalized on June 30.

    The family of Sturgess released a statement through the London Metropolitan Police on Tuesday, two days after her death was announced, saying the 44-year-old will be "dreadfully missed."

    "Dawn will always be remembered by us as a gentle soul who was generous to a fault," the statement read. "She would do anything for anybody, and those who knew Dawn would know that she would gladly give her last penny to somebody in need.

    "Our thoughts and prayers also go out to Charlie and his family and we wish Charlie a speedy recovery," the family said."

    "Her survivors include two sons and a daughter, ranging in age from 11 to 23 according to BBC.

    Meanwhile, authorities have broadened their investigation, seizing a car in a third community in southwestern England."
     
  16. Inthedetails

    Inthedetails Well-Known Member

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    Snipped by me.

    Fingers crossed he will either remember or have some clues to provide about what they handled that was contaminated.

    jmo
     
  17. Hatfield

    Hatfield Well-Known Member

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    My mind keeps going back to the park bench.

    Here is what Im thinking. In the original case Russian spies may have had someone watching the victims to make sure they got sick. So they followed them. All the way to the park bench where they collapsed. Then the spy walked passed them and splashes an extra dose on them for good measure and to be sure they get whacked. Maybe by grabbing their hands while wearing protective gloves themselves and pretending to see if they are ok.

    Then fast forward to this new couple. They may have sat in that same park bench and picked up the contamination there. Maybe each had one arm across the back of the bench which could explain why only one hand. Or on the end of the bench there maybe an arm rest and they each used the end seats.

    LE needs to reinvestigate that park bench IMO

    "A park bench in an English town where an ex-Russian spy and his daughter were found slumped over and unconscious after being poisoned by a nerve agent has been removed from the site, British police said."

    Park bench where ex-Russian spy and daughter found poisoned is removed


    ETA: Just reading again and realized they said they removed the bench. Maybe a tree nearby was grabbed by the original victims. Point still being that area around the bench needs reinvestigated IMO. I know they probably searched it good already but thinking it should be searched again.

    Its the one place where I think if someone had followed the original couple they would somehow put more on them in that area. Maybe on the ground or a tree nearby there.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  18. Hatfield

    Hatfield Well-Known Member

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    The sunglasses are a good bet. Especially if her friends are saying she said she found them.

    If her friend tried them on then that could explain how one hand was mostly contaminated. People usually use one hand to put on glasses. Hmmmmm

    Novichok victim Dawn Sturgess wore 'contaminated' sunglasses found in park before collapsing
     
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  19. Lizzack1

    Lizzack1 Active Member

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    As others have pointed out, really anyone can potentially come in to contact with the item in question since authorities appear to only be speculating based on likely delivery methods that it is a vial or syringe or something similar that they are looking for.

    What’s particularly troubling to me is that while they are instructing ppl not to pick up “anything that they didn’t drop”, I don’t see anything along the lines of “if you see something, say something.” Now I can understand not wanting to alarm citizens any more than they are now, but it seems pretty obvious that 1.) people already are fearful and 2.) they have only a theory of what the likely item is based on exposure levels. While asking people to report a suspicious finding might seem implied, it could help people who feel helpless to do anything (except panic) in their own community. Sure, this might flood their resources with false leads, but I say cover your bases. Rule them out. Now maybe they are withholding evidence from the public that gives them specific reason to believe that these are the items they are looking for in order to protect the integrity of the investigation, but I’d sincerely hope that they’d prioritize the safety of the community over holding someone accountable.

    On a similar note, I believe it’s counterproductive to assure people the threat to public safety remains low. Look, as long as their is a deadly nerve agent somewhere out there, the public is at risk. Saying otherwise is really an insult to people’s intelligence. Again, why give people more reason to be alarmed, i get it. But I think authorities need to meet the community half way and say, we are doing everything we can, but here’s what you can do (not just what you shouldn’t) and do whatever they can to address the situation head on. Tell people not to be uneasy about reporting something even if it’s just a gut feeling. How many times do we see cases where people didn’t report something to authorities bc they weren’t sure or didn’t want to get someone in trouble or wrote it off for any other number of reasons, only to find out it might have prevented something or helped authorities close a case?

    One more note (promise!). I want to stress how uncomfortable I am with asking people not to touch a very specific, narrow category of items. By doing that, I think it endangers people who might touch something without thinking of it as a source of contamination bc it doesn’t fit with what they are being told. An example that was given by another poster is a public water fountain. And however unlikely it might be (not discounting it, just using as example), you have to think of everything in between that might be a possibility. A bottle of bubbles found in a park that isn’t out of place, a bottle of bug spray laying around. Even with assuming everyone knows not to even touch them, DON’T assume everyone will report something suspicious.
     
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  20. Hatfield

    Hatfield Well-Known Member

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    Very informative article. People out to target someone obviously dont care if others get contaminated. Very scary.

    "British Airways later published a list of 221 flights of the contaminated aircraft, involving around 33,000 passengers, and advised those potentially affected to contact the UK Department of Health for help."

    Poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko - Wikipedia


    The recent video of the Korean person being attacked in an airport by alleged female assassins was so scary to witness.

    This type of attack using poisons, nerve agents, and radioactive materials is the stuff of nightmares.

    I am willing to bet others have fell ill and got mildly sick because of brief touching so they did not go to hospital and have no idea why they felt ill. Scary to think about all this.
     
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