UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #14

[Tortoise]

Why just look at statistical analysis that includes what percentage of collapses LL was present at, and what percentage a nurse working similar hours would be present at, and how unlikely it is to occur by chance etc. though? LL isn't in the dock purely because she happened to be on shift for the collapses. She was also often alone with the babies right before the collapses, even when they weren't her designated babies.

Then there are all the repeated patterns, like the parents just having left, a designated nurse just having left. So are they also going to include statistical analysis of how likely it is in a 24 hour period that a baby would only collapse in the few minutes after their designated nurse left for a break, or how likely it is that a baby would only collapse in the short time their parents left them, after having been by their side for hours? etc etc

yeah, I'd like to throw in a few more, like chances of a baby collapsing one night shift, recovering and going on to have a stable day, and then it happening again the next night shift, or even weeks later, when LL is present. And collapses following a long break in LL's night shifts, like between baby F and baby G. And following shift changes from night to day.

 

[ColourPurple]

Q


I'm very aware the opening posts say nobody is a statistician here so we shouldn't discuss statistical probability. I think it's something I want to know more about and hope experts are bought in. JMO

True none of us are statisticians , and I wasn't really looking for the answers to the points I raised. I was just pointing out that because there are so many other reasons that LL is in the dock, other than her being on shift for all the collapses, that I don't think those stats are going to be much use, unless they have stats for all the other patterns too.

 

[LorriB]

True none of us are statisticians , and I wasn't really looking for the answers to the points I raised. I was just pointing out that because there are so many other reasons that LL is in the dock, other than her being on shift for all the collapses, that I don't think those stats are going to be much use, unless they have stats for all the other patterns too.

No I get what you meant, I more was trying not to answer about why those things aren't as important to me without talking stats!

But briefly speaking, I think things like that are likely to occur as trends because the police have combed through all cases to find one's where opportunity was there. So that naturally increases the odds of us hearing about those collapses in this case where someone had 'just' left the room. JMO

The stats are important in my opinion because there are 3 big things that underpin the prosecution. There was an unatural rise in deaths, these deaths are unexpected, they coincide with LL being there with opportunity. If they can prove that those things could occur by chance then I for one would be thinking about the implications.

All JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

The Daily Mail have added more info from today, from one of the doctors.:

She recalled going through to Nursery 1 to Nursery 2 shortly after receiving an optimistic gas reading that suggested Baby P might recover.

'A few nurses were there, including Staff Nurse Lucy Letby. I remember when you face one wall there's a clock in front. It was just going past 12. I was desperately wanting this baby to get better and feeling totally out of my depth.

'I just said, almost thinking out loud: "Ok, the transport team are going to be here". Staff Nurse Letby said "He's not leaving here alive, is he?"

'I found it absolutely shocking at the time. I turned round and said "Don't say that – he's had a good gas". In my mind he was very much alive. I said that and left the room.'

She continued: 'We have babies who are very, very sick, and very, very unwell. With some of them who have followed a course where they've become increasingly unwell, but you still keep hoping and trying.

'I would never let myself think [they would not live]. It's that hope that helps you keep going. When I heard her say that I don't even know if I was upset. I was just shocked.'

At that time Baby P was the best he had been since the collapses had begun in the morning.

The doctor said: 'The transport team was on its way. I thought he was winning and saw no reason for this comment'.

Following the baby's death she had gone with Letby to see the baby's parents in the nearby Lavender Suite.

'I remember thinking "I don't know how to face them. I don't know how to say this". The parents were sitting there and I told them P was going to need a post mortem too.

'Staff Nurse Letby was against the door and she was very animated, saying to the parents "Do you want me to make a memory box, like I did for (Baby) O?"

'I remember thinking "This is not a new baby, this is a dead baby. Why are you so excited about this?"

'That's how she was. Saying "Do you want me to make a memory box" like it was a bounty pack*. I found that very inappropriate. It was the way it was said, not what was said.'

She added: 'Dad was there and he was stood next to (the surviving triplet), sobbing and literally begging Dr Rackham to please take him.

'And even though I didn’t beg, and I found a professional way of saying it, in my heart I just wanted him to leave too because that’s the only way he was going to live.'

She said although she did not go to the police, she raised it with colleagues, including the clinical lead and the neo-natal unit manager, at their regular Monday meeting three days later. The court heard Letby was removed from the ward soon afterwards.



* For non UK people, a bounty pack is a little pack of free baby product samples and discount vouchers that they hand out to new mothers when you've just given birth in a UK hospital

Lucy Letby: Doctor nearly begged for triplet to go to another hospital

The neonatal nurse (pictured), 33, is accused of administering fatal doses of air to both infants in successive days while working at the Countess of Chester Hospital in June 2016.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Dotta]

"Animated", "excited"

Well, what can one say?

 

[Sweeper2000]

thats really Effin weird. Strangely enough right off the bat reminds me of when she was talking to the parents whilst bathing the baby. Much more animated than I would expect. That was always a quote i didn’t think there could be a normal answer for and now hearing that. Really Effin weird.

did we really not get any proper reporting today?

 

[Tortoise]

I expect that line about her not going to the police was a question put to her by Mr Myers. Trying to discount it. JMO

 

[Tortoise]

thats really Effin weird. Strangely enough right off the bat reminds me of when she was talking to the parents whilst bathing the baby. Much more animated than I would expect. That was always a quote i didn’t think there could be a normal answer for and now hearing that. Really Effin weird.

did we really not get any proper reporting today?

Nope, all the papers ran with the earlier report about her being bored with feeding babies.

Interesting, but not as shocking as this! Mind you, it ties in with what other parents have said before.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Nope, all the papers ran with the earlier report about her being bored with feeding babies.

Interesting, but not as shocking as this! Mind you, it ties in with what other parents have said before.

I don’t see the point. Spent weeks trawling through reported medical jargon but when it actually comes to anything no reporting at all. Fainting and this and I bet they skip taking her off the unit as well.

you are correct. This is a big one for the prosecution. Especially with the way the doc gave her account. So solid and sure. Really does remind me of baby I.

 

[Becci]

Am i missing the point here. The parents say a totally different thing for baby p. She was in floods of tears?
The doc says opposite.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Thank you! I definitely get wanting to be in the 'busier' jobs because 8 hours can feel like a millenia when you're stood around doing very little but I don't think arguing with someone more senior after you've been told what to do is a very good look.

JMO x

What comes across to me in this arguing, quite loudly, is spoilt brat JMO

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

I just re-read the article, and it does come across that way! It must have been different in court, surely?

Before the Christmas break, I felt this too. He seemed to be asking questions that benefitted the prosecution. I have no idea what he is doing with this strategy, but I have a feeling it may all come together when he gets to present

 

[Sweeper2000]

Am i missing the point here. The parents say a totally different thing for baby p. She was in floods of tears?
The doc says opposite.

That’s a good point actually. I’m putting it down to the reporting.

 

[Tortoise]

Am i missing the point here. The parents say a totally different thing for baby p. She was in floods of tears?
The doc says opposite.

Two different times.

First they went to notify the parents of the death of baby P.

Then LL went and dressed both babies and took them to the parents. That's when she was emotional.


"Before their son was transferred, the court heard, Letby brought his two deceased brothers, who were in special cold cots, to see their parents.

'I'm pretty sure that it was Lucy Letby who wheeled the two boys down to us in the cold box,' the father said. 'I'm sure it was her, 110 per cent.

'She said how sorry she was, she was very tearful and very upset. I'm pretty certain she dressed the pair of them because we'd picked out little matching outfits.'

His partner, the boys' mother, added: 'Lucy was extremely upset and emotional. She was in pieces and almost as upset as we were."

Parents begged to take baby after Lucy Letby 'murdered two brothers'

Letby (pictured), 33, is accused of killing the infants, known as Babies O and P, by injecting air into their stomachs and bloodstream on consecutive days in June 2016.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Since some procedures are unavoidable, many of us learn to do them in a way that is as "least traumatic" as possible. I like working with intensive care/high dependency babies in part because their experience is everything to me. I provide the baby with as much positive touch that is "for the baby" as possible (not just procedural touch), by advocating for lots of parental holding, as well as using my hands to respond to the baby's cues while doing routine care giving. This is a learned skill, and it's not necessarily easy to come by. I also don't want to turn unpleasant procedures over to someone else, because in typical control freak ICU nurse fashion, I know I can do what needs to be done either in the least painful way possible, or even in a way that is comfortable and allows the baby to remain quietly alert (my preference for the baby). Most of us who get good at necessary procedures do so because we are invested in the baby's experience. I've done my job well when I am doing something *for* and *with* a baby instead of doing something *to* a baby.

Now I'm not saying that LL had these goals when she complained it was boring to be feeding babies, and personally I think it's immature to argue about your assignments, but liking babies and respecting them as people is not at odds with delivering intensive care.

I mentioned a while back, before the break, that when my child was in NICU, a certain trainee doctor would poke and poke and poke a baby because she was struggling to get the vein and would not have anyone in the room with her. One time, my child was screaming in a way, I had never heard a baby cry before, I looked at the Nurse sitting with us, and she was upset. After another minute, she got up angrily and said 'right, thats enough' she stormed into the room, took my child from the doctor, some words were exchanged but I didn't hear them, and gave my child to me, saying ' There we are Mum, she needs her Mummy right now". This doctor had absolutely no care about how my child was feeling or how she was hurting her. She ignored the screams and just kept on hurting her. My child, now 18, has scars from NICU on her feet from the longline and on her wrists. She also has three round marks that look like cigarette burns on one forearm, I remember when I found them, they were red, perfectly round and looked very sore. I called a nurse over, and she had no idea what it was, called another nurse over, and she had no idea either. They went off to review the notes from the night before, came back and said there was nothing in the notes, but they think it could have been caused by a ultraviolet mini torch thing? used to find the veins and that it had been pressed against her so hard for so long she had been burned. Turns out that the trainee doctor was on the night shift the night before.
JME

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

You could be right. However, if I were in such a situation, and believed that I had done nothing wrong, I would never forgive myself for not speaking out when I had the chance. Clever questioners might attempt to tear me apart, but I would keep stating the truth. It would not be remotely easy, but silence would be far more dangerous, if one is risking a lifetime in prison.

I have been thinking the same reading these posts.
If I was innocent, nothing would stop me from talking and telling the truth, over and over.
JMO

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

True none of us are statisticians , and I wasn't really looking for the answers to the points I raised. I was just pointing out that because there are so many other reasons that LL is in the dock, other than her being on shift for all the collapses, that I don't think those stats are going to be much use, unless they have stats for all the other patterns too.

I would be interested in running those stats. for curiosities sake

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

No I get what you meant, I more was trying not to answer about why those things aren't as important to me without talking stats!

But briefly speaking, I think things like that are likely to occur as trends because the police have combed through all cases to find one's where opportunity was there. So that naturally increases the odds of us hearing about those collapses in this case where someone had 'just' left the room. JMO

The stats are important in my opinion because there are 3 big things that underpin the prosecution. There was an unatural rise in deaths, these deaths are unexpected, they coincide with LL being there with opportunity. If they can prove that those things could occur by chance then I for one would be thinking about the implications.

All JMO

I feel stats would have been run quite early. Think about it from an investigatory point of view, X amount of deaths occur, one of the first questions you are going to ask is, Was there anyone here for all X amount? Once it was obvious that there was one individual who was present nearly three times more often than the next amount, you are going to start looking deeper and for more correlations.

JME

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

thats really Effin weird. Strangely enough right off the bat reminds me of when she was talking to the parents whilst bathing the baby. Much more animated than I would expect. That was always a quote i didn’t think there could be a normal answer for and now hearing that. Really Effin weird.

did we really not get any proper reporting today?

I wonder if the no reporting was because of what was said today? This is a significant testimony. Something feels off. JMO

 

[Phoenix Lazarus]

I've just seen the account of a doctor begging for the one survivor of three triplets to be moved is on the front page of the Daily Mail website, just below the headline. The case hadn't seemed to be getting such prominent coverage before.