UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #15

[LadyEdgeworth]

1:54pm

Here is a fuller version of the text messages between Lucy Letby and the doctor from 10.47pm on Saturday, June 25, 2016. The doctor, who cannot be named, is for this purpose listed as 'R' for 'Response':
Letby: Do I need to be worried about what Dr Gibbs was asking?
R: No
R: He was asking to make sure that normal procedures were being carried out.
R: What exactly did he ask?
LL: I walked into equipment room, he was asking Mary who was present in room and how quickly someone had gone to him as I wasn't in the room.
LL: He asked who was there, I said I had popped out of room but Mary was in room and Minna at the desk.
R: All he was doing was checking that there wasn't a delay and that a room had been left empty.
Was he HDU level because of uvc?
There is nothing to worry about.
LL: Ok. Was worried because I Wasn't with him at time, but Mary was in room and Minna outside, I had [designated baby who was not Chld Q] in 1.
ITU because of uvc
R: You can't be with two babies in different nurseries at the same time, let alone predict when they're going to crash......
LL: I know, and I didn't leave him on his own. They both knew I was leaving the room.
Feel better now

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, March 31

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

1:56pm

R: Nobody has accused you of neglecting a baby or causing a deterioration.
LL: I know. Just worry i haven't done enough
R: How?
LL: We've lost 2 babies I Was caring for and now this happened today, makes you think 'am I missing something/good enough'
R: Lucy, if anyone knows how hard you've worked over the last three days it's me. The standard of care delivered is tertiary nicu level. if *anybody* says anything to you about not being good enough or performing adequately I want you to promise me that you'll give my details to provide a statement. I don't care who it is and I don't care if I've left the trust.
R: Promise?
LL: Well I sincerely hope I won't ever be needing a statement
But thank you, I promise

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, March 31

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

1:59pm

R: And I don't either.
You'll know that the coch nicu mortality rate is a bit higher than the network average. It makes people (consultants) look at trends and patterns. That may have been why DrG came
to ask.
As for the self doubt - you asked me this morning did I dream because I was worried about having missed something?
No, and I don't think you did either.
In fact for [another baby] you knew he was unwell and flagged it up immediately.
I don't know the beginning of the [a separate baby] story because i arrived after the bleep.
You didn't miss anything that I would expect an experienced itu trained nurse to spot.
From a resus point out view you were flawless. It's why I am so happy to work with you. You don't flap, you give perfectly sensible suggestions and things run seamlessly. (You must be
good Rackham said so (seldom praises)).
R: No more doubt - it's not you, it's the babies.
I don't know what happened to [Child O] and [Child P], and accept that the pm may not give any useful answers.
I Do wonder if they may have had adenovirus - it's terrible in neonates / perinates.
[Child Q] is different.
His behaviour is more bacterial (tachy, temp, reduced uo)
I wouldn't be surprised if his bc comes back positive.
LL: Thanks, really appreciate you saying that.
LL: So relieved that it's you who has been there throughout.

2:01pm

R: It's true.
You are one of a few nurses across the region...that I would trust with my own children.
If you're worried - I'm worried.
You should do the APNP course, you'd be excellent.
LL: Don't know what to say Thank you
R: Self doubt finished?
LL: I think so, thank you ++
The messages continue on a social/work nature until 1.36am, but have no further reference to Child Q.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, March 31

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Dotta]

1:59pm

R: And I don't either.
You'll know that the coch nicu mortality rate is a bit higher than the network average. It makes people (consultants) look at trends and patterns. That may have been why DrG came
to ask.
As for the self doubt - you asked me this morning did I dream because I was worried about having missed something?
No, and I don't think you did either.
In fact for [another baby] you knew he was unwell and flagged it up immediately.
I don't know the beginning of the [a separate baby] story because i arrived after the bleep.
You didn't miss anything that I would expect an experienced itu trained nurse to spot.
From a resus point out view you were flawless. It's why I am so happy to work with you. You don't flap, you give perfectly sensible suggestions and things run seamlessly. (You must be
good Rackham said so (seldom praises)).
R: No more doubt - it's not you, it's the babies.
I don't know what happened to [Child O] and [Child P], and accept that the pm may not give any useful answers.
I Do wonder if they may have had adenovirus - it's terrible in neonates / perinates.
[Child Q] is different.
His behaviour is more bacterial (tachy, temp, reduced uo)
I wouldn't be surprised if his bc comes back positive.
LL: Thanks, really appreciate you saying that.
LL: So relieved that it's you who has been there throughout.

2:01pm

R: It's true.
You are one of a few nurses across the region...that I would trust with my own children.
If you're worried - I'm worried.
You should do the APNP course, you'd be excellent.
LL: Don't know what to say Thank you
R: Self doubt finished?
LL: I think so, thank you ++
The messages continue on a social/work nature until 1.36am, but have no further reference to Child Q.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, March 31

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Well
Umm...
His eagerness is overwhelming
(for the lack of a better word)

But the Promise was broken.

Silver tongued men....

JMO

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

2:10pm

Prosecutor Philip Astbury is now reading out some agreed statements. The first is from a midwife at the Countess of Chester Hospital, who describes the condition of Child Q at birth. The mother had lost a total of over 1.8 litres in blood prior to giving birth via an emergency C-section.
The baby was born in 'good condition for his gestational age'.
Child Q was taken to the neonatal unit and there were 'no major concerns' for the mother or baby, taking into account the mother's blood loss.

2:14pm

Neonatal nurse Christopher Booth, in a statement, said he did not remember Child Q independently, but did so from looking at notes made at the time.
He recalls Child Q was receiving CPAP, then taken off that breathing support during the day. Child Q was 'coping well, self ventilating in air'.
He had an 'unremarkable shift' and had 'no concerns' for Child Q, before passing care to nurse Tanya Downes

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, March 31

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Kemug]

Yes, it seems that the promise was broken. No backing her up anymore. But one could say that his infatuation has run its course, and now he sees clearly.

 

[Sweeper2000]

1:56pm

R: Nobody has accused you of neglecting a baby or causing a deterioration.
LL: I know. Just worry i haven't done enough
R: How?
LL: We've lost 2 babies I Was caring for and now this happened today, makes you think 'am I missing something/good enough'
R: Lucy, if anyone knows how hard you've worked over the last three days it's me. The standard of care delivered is tertiary nicu level. if *anybody* says anything to you about not being good enough or performing adequately I want you to promise me that you'll give my details to provide a statement. I don't care who it is and I don't care if I've left the trust.
R: Promise?
LL: Well I sincerely hope I won't ever be needing a statement
But thank you, I promise

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, March 31

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

“not good enough“. i always thought the line in that note was about her competency as a nurse. Does that resolve that in others opinions? This is also an example of language used in different situations being applied at different times, ie a running theme That allows us to put into context that blooming note. I think it backs it up for me. Assuming the motive isn’t to “prove she is good enough“.

this is a very very curious passage IMO. It’s also the first time we have seen ll worry about the events and how they reflect on her. It’s also the first time that she seems to have noticed just how unusual the events are.

it’s so strange this entire time I have been looking for an awareness of the situation and how it reflects on her, its there now at this point and trying to put it together is more difficult now than ever. To me it’s really strange to see an understanding of potential problems now at this point, on the cusp of being put on clerical. remarkable imo.

 

[notsure]

Yes, it seems that the promise was broken. No backing her up anymore. But one could say that his infatuation has run its course, and now he sees clearly.

Were we told what he said when he was on the stand? I can't remember anything, apart from LL being upset at the time.

 

[Dotta]

Yes, it seems that the promise was broken. No backing her up anymore. But one could say that his infatuation has run its course, and now he sees clearly.

Promises should never be given lightly.

"Give a thing, and take a thing...."
You know.

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

2:21pm

Nurse Tanya Downes has now been called to court to give evidence. She confirms that, at the time in June 2016, she was working as a nurse at the Countess of Chester Hospital at the neonatal unit, and worked the night shift on June 23-24.
She says Child Q was in room 1 of the neonatal unit.
She says when waiting for the handover, she was standing by room 2, she recalled a baby in an open-top cot. She looked in and saw a baby 'didn't look too clever' in terms of condition and perfusion. She recalls it was on the night of June 23, the night of the EU Referendum.
She said she had got in early to get herself a cup of tea and get ready for the shift.
Room 2 was 'quite busy' with staff. A female staff member with blonde hair was standing by the cot. She does not recall the name of the baby.
She said she had 'never seen anything like that' on Child Q - they looked 'mottled, but not mottled - a darker kind of mottling'.
She says she could see from the baby's chest upwards, the top part of the body.
She says the nurse was 'just standing by the bottom of the cot'.
She said this did not look unusual as there was a lot of activity in the room.

2:28pm

Ms Downes is asked to look at her nursing note from 10.02pm on June 23. Observations are recorded and Child Q is 'in air requiring no respiratory support'.
The note adds 'Aspirated 2mls bile and blood flecked aspirate at 2130, awaiting paed review, stomach not bloated, bowel sounds in all four quadrants'.
The feed of milk was stopped following the bile aspirate being recorded on June 23, Ms Downes tells the court, following consultation with the paediatrician. Nutrition was increased via TPN bags.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, March 31

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

Were we told what he said when he was on the stand? I can't remember anything, apart from LL being upset at the time.

His evidence was in relation to Baby L I believe, I'd have to read the media thread again to refresh but I believe he said something about not knowing at the time that Baby L had been deliberately poisoned with insulin?

EDIT: here you go x

Lucy Letby breaks down as consultant gives evidence at murder trial

Lucy Letby, 33, stood up in the glass-panelled dock and walked swiftly to the door leading to the cells at Manchester Crown Court as a paediatric consultant began to give evidence at her 16-week trial.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[squish]

“not good enough“. i always thought the line in that note was about her competency as a nurse. Does that resolve that in others opinions? This is also an example of language used in different situations being applied at different times, ie a running theme That allows us to put into context that blooming note. I think it backs it up for me. Assuming the motive isn’t to “prove she is good enough“.

this is a very very curious passage IMO. It’s also the first time we have seen ll worry about the events and how they reflect on her. It’s also the first time that she seems to have noticed just how unusual the events are.

it’s so strange this entire time I have been looking for an awareness of the situation and how it reflects on her, its there now at this point and trying to put it together is more difficult now than ever. To me it’s really strange to see an understanding of potential problems now at this point, on the cusp of being put on clerical. remarkable imo.

I don't think this relates to the note, but I was surprised too to see the first acknowledgement of her potential inadequacy as a nurse. It was a long time coming - you'd think that an average person would have had those kind of self doubts after maybe baby C or D.

But then looking at her texts to other nurses, she's back to explaining away the deaths (virus going round, unsafe staffing levels). I don't think this was true self doubt; combined with the worrying about Dr Gibbs questioning, I think she had correctly sensed a shift in opinion about her, and was trying a new tactic of expressing insecurities and raising the possibility of her own inadequacy to deflect from concerns about potential sabotage. I also think she was trying to look vulnerable to Dr choc and get attention, validation, support and comfort from him.

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

2:33pm

A milk feed of 0.5ml is made via the NG Tube at 2am.
'Minimal' aspirates are recorded at 1am and 2am.
An observation chart records 'normal' heart rate, respirations and temperature for Child Q.

2:41pm

Benjamin Myers KC, for Letby's defence, says Ms Downes was working as a 'bank nurse' at the Countess of Chester Hospital on that night.
Mr Myers asks about the incident in room 2 Ms Downes saw.
Mr Myers says, according to Ms Downes, the nurse was wearing 'dark blue scrubs', which would be worn by senior nurses.
Ms Downes agrees with Mr Myers that Child Q was one of a number of babies at the neonatal unit who appeared to have bowel problems.
For the June 23 night shift, Mr Myers refers to the intensive care chart earlier that day, for '2ml light bile' aspirate recorded at 09.31am.
Ms Downes said she was aware of that, but had no major concerns.
A '2ml bile/blood' reading is made by nurse Downes at 2130.
Mr Myers said Ms Downes had asked for a review by a paediatrician. Ms Downes says there was a concern as it was blood-flecked. The cause of it could be 'a number of things', but it was 'a warning sign'.
Ms Downes agrees this led to enteral feeds being stopped.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, March 31

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

2:44pm

Mr Myers asks about the 1.5ml aspirate at 4am on June 24.
Ms Downes says it could be a mixture of milk and stomach acid. No blood is noted and a pH reading isn't made.

2:46pm

Ms Downes recalls Child Q was recalled to hospital follwing his discharge in July 2016, with 'gut problems'.
Ms Downes recalls she treated him at the out-of-hours clinic.

2:47pm

The prosecution rise to clarify about the make-up of the blood-flecked aspirate for Child Q. Ms Downes explains the aspirate had the appearance of coffee granules.

2:49pm

That concludes Ms Downes's evidenc

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, March 31

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Sundial]

12:27pm

Letby messages a doctor at 10.48pm: 'Do I need to be worried about what Dr Gibbs was asking?'
Response: 'No.
'He was asking to make sure that normal procedures were being carried out'
'What exactly did he ask?'
Letby replies Dr Gibbs had been asking colleague Mary Griffiths who was present in the room (when Child Q had collapsed) and how quickly someone had gone to him because Lucy Letby had not been there.
The response: 'All he was doing was checking there was not a delay and that a room had been left empty...there is nothing to worry about'.
The doctor adds: 'You can't be with two babies in different nurseries at the same time, let alone predict when they're going to crash'.
Letby: 'I know, and I didn't leave them alone'.
The response: Nobody has accused you of neglecting a baby or causing a deterioration'.
Letby responds she wonders if, following the deaths of two babies, she is doing well enough.
The doctor replies he would be willing to provide a statement to back Letby up in any event.
He adds: 'It's why I am so happy to work with you. You don't flap, you give perfectly sensible sugfgestions...
'No more doubt - it's not you, it's the babies.'
Letby adds: 'So relieved that it's you who has been there throughout.'

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, March 31

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

She definitely sounds a bit rattled by this imo: “What exactly did he ask?”
This conversation is so unusually weird and concerning at the same time.
JMO

 

[squish]

Going back to baby Q being a twin: this is an extraordinary story because the twin was ectopic and growing outside the womb and unfortunately had to be terminated. This must have been agonizing for the mother and would have made baby Q all the more precious.

This adds to my belief that if guilty, LL was targeting babies for maximum significance and effect on the parents.

 

[Sundial]

The doctor replies he would be willing to provide a statement to back Letby up in any event.


Jesus, that comment has come back to haunt him! And may be the reason she was upset to see him giving evidence behind a screen , rather than "backing her up"

The comment about “no-one is accusing you of deliberate harm etc”
What a strange thing to say though. Why would you say that?
JMO

ETA I have the wording of this incorrect. Thankyou Mary for clarifying.

 

[marynnu]

The comment about “no-one is accusing you of deliberate harm etc”
What a strange thing to say though. Why would you say that?
JMO

I can't see a "deliberate harm" comment. Do you mean this? "Nobody has accused you of neglecting a baby or causing a deterioration'."
It's still a bit odd though, IMO.

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

Looks like we are done for the day, hopefully back Monday

Lucy Letby queried senior doctor's presence, trial hears

Lucy Letby asked in messages shown to the court if she needed to be worried by a doctor's questioning.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Anxala]

I can't see a "deliberate harm" comment. Do you mean this? "Nobody has accused you of neglecting a baby or causing a deterioration'."
It's still a bit odd though, IMO.

It could be seen as odd but equally he could just have been reassuring her that she did everything she could have done. The rest of that conversation seems to back that up, that that was his (innocent) stance at the time.

It's hard to know though since we're viewing all this with the knowledge of what happened in the aftermath ie. her being moved to admin and then later being charged with multiple murders. If he suspected her at the time, I feel he would have been rather over-egging the pudding somewhat in the strength of his support of her, based on the remainder of that conversation. It's a little OTT to say the least and most def OTT if he had any doubts about her. JMO.