UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #15

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Anxala said:
It could be seen as odd but equally he could just have been reassuring her that she did everything she could have done. The rest of the conversation seems to back that up, that that was his stance at the time.

It's hard to know since we're viewing all this with the knowledge of what happened in the aftermath ie. her being moved to admin and then later being charged with multiple murders. If he suspected her at the time, I feel he would have been rather over-egging the pudding somewhat in the strength of his support of her, based on the remainer of that conversation.
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I don't think he suspected a thing at this time, even though we know what was going on in the background with doctors demanding her removal at this time. I think that is why she was so shocked to hear him give evidence, I wonder when exactly he changed his mind (or if he even has fully changed it)...
 
squish said:
I don't think this relates to the note, but I was surprised too to see the first acknowledgement of her potential inadequacy as a nurse. It was a long time coming - you'd think that an average person would have had those kind of self doubts after maybe baby C or D.

But then looking at her texts to other nurses, she's back to explaining away the deaths (virus going round, unsafe staffing levels). I don't think this was true self doubt; combined with the worrying about Dr Gibbs questioning, I think she had correctly sensed a shift in opinion about her, and was trying a new tactic of expressing insecurities and raising the possibility of her own inadequacy to deflect from concerns about potential sabotage. I also think she was trying to look vulnerable to Dr choc and get attention, validation, support and comfort from him.
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i do big time. I’m looking at the non sensical nature of that particular sentence. If it doesn’t make sense it must have a root, the root for it IMO is a thought that relates to a feeling no matter how reoccurring or transient (feelings don’t often relate to fact). The feeling in this context is one of low self esteem and the thought is “not good enough“ explains the heading of the note and that Sentence.

I didn’t actually ever think judging by the rest of the staffs coms that the events under question were ever actually viewed as completely abnormal at the time, was always in retrospect that they were deemed unusual. So if ll didn’t do anything why would she question her practice? I also think that unfortunately on a NNU deaths are expected hence why LL had the coping mechanism of “getting straight back in”, a coping mechanism built on experience.

genuinely i think if she had of had her back up because she had done something I would have expected these scanning questions around the time of the alleged incidents but we didn’t see that. Only now, so why now? She may well have picked up on a change of attitudes towards her but how? There was no questions after the dr j and baby k event, no scanning questions on the move to day shifts, so why now?
 
A few takeaways from this for me imo today;

1. She seemed very adamant in her text comms stating nurses knew she was leaving the room. She seemed very abrupt pointing out “I didn’t leave him (baby Q) on his own

2. The doctor (again, dr choc? I presume here), stating her would provide a statement etc (or words similar to) should she need it- even though he mentions in his text he’d now left (I presume the COC as in his role there).

3. I agree with sweeper here where she suddenly seems to notice a shift in things being said. She disputed and reasoned and justified from babies A-D and beyond even when her colleagues said they were concerned for her. She was still very defiant, oblivious to the ammount of deaths rising. It’s really strange- so indeed, why now?

4. The conversation with her colleague, Minna. This intrigued me; minna thanked her and all stated, please don’t ever think you’re alone (or similar words of); she claimed she was glad LL was there. Could this be a personal reason, did her colleague have sympathy of some kind. The crown obviously felt it was needed to include in the evidence. Who knows.

5. The amount of times she is messaging, tap happy texting away in the middle of the shift, babies so unwell, short staffed allegedly and chaos and everyone running round- yet she has time to permanently be on her phone whilst on duty really gets my back up.

6. The doctor sharing baby Qs medical update I also have a problem with. For her to then share it with another colleague and she’s not even on shift. This is really unprofessional not to mention breaching patient confidentiality imo.

7. Will dr choc still stand by his previous comments made to her about giving statements etc. I feel we may hear more from him in due course. However, if he stands by her in a good way, why would he need the screen?

It will be interesting to hear more from others in due course.

All my own opinions and if guilty etc etc
 
I don’t know that even now we could say what the staff think or feel about LL. From what I understand they’re there as witnesses and to tell their recollection of factual events. They’re not there for the prosecution as such are they? Or have I got that completely wrong?
 
Sundial said:
A few takeaways from this for me imo today;

1. She seemed very adamant in her text comms stating nurses knew she was leaving the room. She seemed very abrupt pointing out “I didn’t leave him (baby Q) on his own

2. The doctor (again, dr choc? I presume here), stating her would provide a statement etc (or words similar to) should she need it- even though he mentions in his text he’d now left (I presume the COC as in his role there).

3. I agree with sweeper here where she suddenly seems to notice a shift in things being said. She disputed and reasoned and justified from babies A-D and beyond even when her colleagues said they were concerned for her. She was still very defiant, oblivious to the ammount of deaths rising. It’s really strange- so indeed, why now?

4. The conversation with her colleague, Minna. This intrigued me; minna thanked her and all stated, please don’t ever think you’re alone (or similar words of); she claimed she was glad LL was there. Could this be a personal reason, did her colleague have sympathy of some kind. The crown obviously felt it was needed to include in the evidence. Who knows.

5. The amount of times she is messaging, tap happy texting away in the middle of the shift, babies so unwell, short staffed allegedly and chaos and everyone running round- yet she has time to permanently be on her phone whilst on duty really gets my back up.

6. The doctor sharing baby Qs medical update I also have a problem with. For her to then share it with another colleague and she’s not even on shift. This is really unprofessional not to mention breaching patient confidentiality imo.

7. Will dr choc still stand by his previous comments made to her about giving statements etc. I feel we may hear more from him in due course. However, if he stands by her in a good way, why would he need the screen?

It will be interesting to hear more from others in due course.

All my own opinions and if guilty etc etc
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I do agree with you here, especially on just how often she's on her phone on shift, and the fact it seems her and a lot of her colleagues are constantly texting about patients they have seen or asking about them. Like how is so and so? *advertiser censored* this happened today.. etc.

Maybe that is normal I don't know, but I don't like the thought of it happening to me one day!

I wonder if Dr Choc will be heard from again in court.. will he stand by everything he said? He seemed to agree Baby L had been deliberately poisoned last time he was here so maybe the defence won't want to hear from him if he's changed his tune.
 
LadyEdgeworth said:
I wonder if Dr Choc will be heard from again in court.. will he stand by everything he said? He seemed to agree Baby L had been deliberately poisoned last time he was here so maybe the defence won't want to hear from him if he's changed his tune.
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I have a feeling we will hear from Dr A a lot.

He seems to be a Godsend for Defence when painting LL as a "modern Florence N."

Oh, and one worthy of "caring for his children".

What a treasure for KC Ben M.

JMO
 
LadyEdgeworth said:
I do agree with you here, especially on just how often she's on her phone on shift, and the fact it seems her and a lot of her colleagues are constantly texting about patients they have seen or asking about them. Like how is so and so? *advertiser censored* this happened today.. etc.

Maybe that is normal I don't know, but I don't like the thought of it happening to me one day!

I wonder if Dr Choc will be heard from again in court.. will he stand by everything he said? He seemed to agree Baby L had been deliberately poisoned last time he was here so maybe the defence won't want to hear from him if he's changed his tune.
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Personally, I’ve not encountered the sharing of patients personal, private and confidential information many times. Maybe once or twice from a few colleagues many years ago. I am quite firm in my stance over this, it shouldn’t be happening and when in this role, I have immediately shut it down making it very clear what the responsibilities and values which are expected.

It’s not gossip or sharing, work is work and without sounding too blunt or careless; I’m not interested in how people are or what medications they are on, daily hourly updates when I am away from my job. You’d never switch off, it would Jst consume your life! It’s also highly unprofessional and whether guilty or not; if it was as chaotic as she states and the “girls running round outside,” her mentioning the “laugh out loud/lol “ comments is really distasteful.

What I also find distasteful is she was considering the advanced nurse practitioner role by the sound of it where dr choc I presume suggested in text here today she should apply for it. So, was she working her way into advanced medicine prescribing or whatever it was? Can you imagine THIS nurse texting away, a chaotic ward, lead practitioner diagnosing and prescribing, having a jolly and sharing medical information like this whilst off duty?

I feel the consultants cannot be commended enough for sticking to their guns to have her removed whilst a proper investigation took place.

My own opinion of course
 
LadyEdgeworth said:
1:59pm

R: And I don't either.
You'll know that the coch nicu mortality rate is a bit higher than the network average. It makes people (consultants) look at trends and patterns. That may have been why DrG came
to ask.
As for the self doubt - you asked me this morning did I dream because I was worried about having missed something?
No, and I don't think you did either.
In fact for [another baby] you knew he was unwell and flagged it up immediately.
I don't know the beginning of the [a separate baby] story because i arrived after the bleep.
You didn't miss anything that I would expect an experienced itu trained nurse to spot.
From a resus point out view you were flawless. It's why I am so happy to work with you. You don't flap, you give perfectly sensible suggestions and things run seamlessly. (You must be
good Rackham said so (seldom praises)).
R: No more doubt - it's not you, it's the babies.
I don't know what happened to [Child O] and [Child P], and accept that the pm may not give any useful answers.
I Do wonder if they may have had adenovirus - it's terrible in neonates / perinates.
[Child Q] is different.
His behaviour is more bacterial (tachy, temp, reduced uo)
I wouldn't be surprised if his bc comes back positive.
LL: Thanks, really appreciate you saying that.
LL: So relieved that it's you who has been there throughout.

2:01pm

R: It's true.
You are one of a few nurses across the region...that I would trust with my own children.
If you're worried - I'm worried.
You should do the APNP course, you'd be excellent.
LL: Don't know what to say Thank you
R: Self doubt finished?
LL: I think so, thank you ++
The messages continue on a social/work nature until 1.36am, but have no further reference to Child Q.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, March 31

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…
www.chesterstandard.co.uk www.chesterstandard.co.uk
Click to expand...
Bringing this into focus:

2:01pm

R: It's true.
You are one of a few nurses across the region...that I would trust with my own children.
If you're worried - I'm worried.
You should do the APNP course, you'd be excellent.
LL: Don't know what to say Thank you
R: Self doubt finished?
LL: I think so, thank you ++
The messages continue on a social/work nature until 1.36am, but have no further reference to Child Q.

For those who need clarification this APNP is the advanced paediatric practice nurse course requiring additional training.
 
Sundial said:
Bringing this into focus:

2:01pm

R: It's true.
You are one of a few nurses across the region...that I would trust with my own children.
If you're worried - I'm worried.
You should do the APNP course, you'd be excellent.
LL: Don't know what to say Thank you
R: Self doubt finished?
LL: I think so, thank you ++
The messages continue on a social/work nature until 1.36am, but have no further reference to Child Q.

For those who need clarification this APNP is the advanced paediatric practice nurse course requiring additional training.
Click to expand...


I think it's supposed to say ANNP (advanced neonatal nurse practitioner). But either way, I think what he's saying is a bit much. JMO.
 
Sundial said:
You should do the APNP course, you'd be excellent.
LL: Don't know what to say Thank you
R: Self doubt finished?
LL: I think so, thank you ++
The messages continue on a social/work nature until 1.36am, but have no further reference to Child Q.

For those who need clarification this APNP is the advanced paediatric practice nurse course requiring additional training.
Click to expand...
"Always keep your words soft and sweet
IN CASE
you have to eat them" :D

Note to myself:
Don't you dare to miss this part of the trial!
 
Something else which has also just occurred to me; in one of the previous cases, I can’t remember which, LL is messaging a colleague stating xyz (another colleague) was worried in case they had missed something (I think it might have been the insulin cases baby F?)

Today; it sounds similar to what she had said to dr choc about baby Q; about missing something?

Was there another nurse who had left to attend to another baby (in one of the previous cases)? I can’t quite recall if there was or not but there does seem to be “mirroring” from LL by prompts from others around her.

Dr choc was reportedly crying in one of the previous cases, as was then she later on.
One of the nurses was reported to have been crying earlier on in (baby D? I think), later we hear LL is then crying.

Crying with the parents (because they are?) but later on with the consultant, appears absolutely fine.

It could also be a purely random act of emotion but the comments from colleagues in previous cases then seem to manifest into her actions and emotions later on.
JMO
 
Just bringing something else into focus. A few other people have mentioned the timing of certain sentences like “I killed them on purpose“ I’m starting to wonder if the prosecution will allege that note was written around the time of the move to clerical. If it was and there was no mention of deliberate harm at that point?
 
I want you to promise me that you'll give my details to provide a statement. I don't care who it is and I don't care if I've left the trust.
R: Promise ?

This From Dr Choc
I do really feel he knew exactly what was being discussed around LL at this point

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, March 31

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…
www.chesterstandard.co.uk www.chesterstandard.co.uk
 
JosieJo said:
I want you to promise me that you'll give my details to provide a statement. I don't care who it is and I don't care if I've left the trust.
R: Promise ?

This From Dr Choc
I do really feel he knew exactly what was being discussed around LL at this point

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, March 31

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…
www.chesterstandard.co.uk www.chesterstandard.co.uk
Click to expand...

I agree with you. It would be a strange thing to say otherwise, IMO.
 
I'm also wondering about the conversation re. what Dr. Gibbs was saying - "should I be worried?". From what we now know, I'd be seriously surprised if he was asking about LL to ensure Baby Q hadn't been left alone by her. More likely, in my view, is that he wanted to know exactly where she was when the baby collapsed, in case she could have been responsible. All JMO of course.
 
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