UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #15

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What is so interesting to me is that the Dr is so very obvious about affection toward LL — offering rides, calling the ER to have her seen quickly, etc. I am a healthcare hospital worker and it is considered to be quite scandalous to do that - even with good intentions - and I don’t know many doctors who would’ve risked their reputations for it. I once dated a doctor in my hospital (both single, nothing nefarious) and we had to keep it extremely private - because he was considered a supervisor to my role, it would’ve been very, very frowned upon and ultimately not worth it (unless we were madly in love - which LL did not seem to be). Are there different views on this in the UK?

I am so uncomfortable reading their texts. JMO
I have heard of people being in relationships on the same ward. I think both relationships and friendships only become a problem in any workplace if it causes people to behave unprofessionally.
Inappropriate use of time would be one example, like neglecting your own responsibilities so you could 'be with the other person' or 'isolating yourselves from other team members' so you can be in your own bubble.
When those sorts of things happen managers don't like it because it impacts on team communication and oversite. Seems they happened in abundance here.
 
I don't think anyone would have a problem with it over here IMO. Doctors aren't nurses' supervisors in any case.

Not even with bumping LL to the front of the queue to be seen? Some of these waiting times can be hours long, surely pulling strings to get your colleague/friend/love interest seen first (especially for just a faint) is not the done thing?
 
Not even with bumping LL to the front of the queue to be seen? Some of these waiting times can be hours long, surely pulling strings to get your colleague/friend/love interest seen first (especially for just a faint) is not the done thing?
Not to mention HER choosing HIM to come to attend to the patient - sending another doctor away o_O
Wow!
 
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Not even with bumping LL to the front of the queue to be seen? Some of these waiting times can be hours long, surely pulling strings to get your colleague/friend/love interest seen first (especially for just a faint) is not the done thing?
The fact that any strings had to be pulled is more worrying to me. I would have thought other people working in the hospital would be automatically prioritised within reason (put your own oxygen mask on before helping others kind of thing).
 
It's still not making sense to me how she could have pricked her finger during resus, when the baby died at 4pm, and then she went to the parents to offer a memory box, dressed the babies and took photos, went to a debrief with the team, and was seen by A&E as a priority but didn't get back to the ward to write up her notes until around 10pm, when doc choc offered her a lift home. Something is wrong in there. I think she could have pricked her finger after doing all those other things, perhaps on a needle used during resus which hadn't been properly disposed of at the time.

If it was later on, and if she is guilty as alleged, I feel it could have been a deliberate act to distract from the talk of the parents insisting the third triplet be transferred, and when she got to A&E and discovered the word had already spread she got really panicked. She needed control over who was telling who what, according to her other texts.

Causes of fainting​

  • being very upset, angry [...]
Fainting
 
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The fact that any strings had to be pulled is more worrying to me. I would have thought other people working in the hospital would be automatically prioritised within reason (put your own oxygen mask on before helping others kind of thing).

Absolutely not! I once waited in uniform for 1.5 hours in the waiting room with mild concussion.
 
It's still not making sense to me how she could have pricked her finger during resus, when the baby died at 4pm, and then she went to the parents to offer a memory box, dressed the babies and took photos, went to a debrief with the team, and was seen by A&E as a priority but didn't get back to the ward to write up her notes until around 10pm, when doc choc offered her a lift home. Something is wrong in there. I think she could have pricked her finger after doing all those other things, perhaps on a needle used during resus which hadn't been properly disposed of at the time.

If it was later on, and if she is guilty as alleged, I feel it could have been a deliberate act to distract from the talk of the parents insisting the third triplet be transferred, and when she got to A&E and discovered the word had already spread she got really panicked. She needed control over who was telling who what, according to her other texts.

Causes of fainting​

  • being very upset, angry [...]
Fainting

I wonder if she did it in resus but soldiered on to do the memory boxes etc.

I did also think from how the lady doctor described it, that, if guilty, LL being so animated about offering the memory box could've been an attempt to distract the parents from trying to get the remaining triplet away from the hospital.


Following the baby's death she had gone with Letby to see the baby's parents in the nearby Lavender Suite.

'I remember thinking "I don't know how to face them. I don't know how to say this". The parents were sitting there and I told them P was going to need a post mortem

'Staff Nurse Letby was against the door and she was very animated, saying to the parents "Do you want me to make a memory box, like I did for (Baby) O?"

'I remember thinking "This is not a new baby, this is a dead baby. Why are you so excited about this?"

'That's how she was. Saying "Do you want me to make a memory box" like it was a bounty pack. I found that very inappropriate. It was the way it was said, not what was said.'

She added: 'Dad was there and he was stood next to (the surviving triplet), sobbing and literally begging Dr Rackham to please take him.


'And even though I didn’t beg, and I found a professional way of saying it, in my heart I just wanted him to leave too because that’s the only way he was going to live.'

If guilty, IMO etc

 
I wonder if she did it in resus but soldiered on to do the memory boxes etc.

I did also think from how the lady doctor described it, that, if guilty, LL being so animated about offering the memory box could've been an attempt to distract the parents from trying to get the remaining triplet away from the hospital.


Following the baby's death she had gone with Letby to see the baby's parents in the nearby Lavender Suite.

'I remember thinking "I don't know how to face them. I don't know how to say this". The parents were sitting there and I told them P was going to need a post mortem

'Staff Nurse Letby was against the door and she was very animated, saying to the parents "Do you want me to make a memory box, like I did for (Baby) O?"

'I remember thinking "This is not a new baby, this is a dead baby. Why are you so excited about this?"

'That's how she was. Saying "Do you want me to make a memory box" like it was a bounty pack. I found that very inappropriate. It was the way it was said, not what was said.'

She added: 'Dad was there and he was stood next to (the surviving triplet), sobbing and literally begging Dr Rackham to please take him.


'And even though I didn’t beg, and I found a professional way of saying it, in my heart I just wanted him to leave too because that’s the only way he was going to live.'

If guilty, IMO etc

I just thought if it happened before 4pm she would have been told, and known, to get it sorted before doing any of those other things, rather than waiting another 4 hours or so.
 
If the doc is as nice as he comes across you'd imagine him to have her back.
If he doesn't he was either stringing her along or confirmation bias imo
 
Is there a recommended time limit to get a needle prick checked out?

I think that you’re meant to hold the affected part below the level of the heart, go to the appropriate sink, encourage it to bleed under running water.

One should take note of where the needle stick came from (some patients may be statistically at higher risk of harbouring blood borne infections). The ward manager and patient’s consultant may therefore get involved, so that the injured gets any necessary preventative treatment, while respecting patient confidentiality.

Then off to A & E, later (once open) to Occupational Health (eg regarding hepatitis B immunisations and titre).

Some confidential record is usually needed such as an accident form.

I’m shocked that staff are not seen quickly at A & E (unless there is a terrible emergency).
 
I think that you’re meant to hold the affected part below the level of the heart, go to the appropriate sink, encourage it to bleed under running water.

One should take note of where the needle stick came from (some patients may be statistically at higher risk of harbouring blood borne infections). The ward manager and patient’s consultant may therefore get involved, so that the injured gets any necessary preventative treatment, while respecting patient confidentiality.

Then off to A & E, later (once open) to Occupational Health (eg regarding hepatitis B immunisations and titre).

Some confidential record is usually needed such as an accident form.

I’m shocked that staff are not seen quickly at A & E (unless there is a terrible emergency).
Oh so it is something they take quite seriously, suggesting the sooner its checked out the better? I thought it'd just be routine blood tests to check for infections
 
The fact that any strings had to be pulled is more worrying to me. I would have thought other people working in the hospital would be automatically prioritised within reason (put your own oxygen mask on before helping others kind of thing).

I just thought if it happened before 4pm she would have been told, and known, to get it sorted before doing any of those other things, rather than waiting another 4 hours or so.
Is it the case though that the incident with child Q occured on the same date as the memory
By the day of Baby P's death the female doc who I think was a junior doctor at the time, confirmed there were rumours about LL amongst "other junior doctors" as well as consultants but not of her doing deliberate harm.

Myers asked: “Did you hear gossip, comment, finger-pointing about Lucy Letby?”

She replied: “Yes, but vaguely. Nothing concrete implicating deaths and increasing mortality rates.”

Mr Myers said: “Who were making these comments?”


The doctor said: “Other junior doctors, some consultant colleagues. But again not in a way that would make you think anything untoward in the way of harm being done was going on.”

So we know that there were changed to rotas to get to the bottom of the problem and these changes were in situ at the time of child I. There was quite a long break after that.
But as you mention above, there were rumours circulating regarding LL around O, P Q and it seems Dr choc was encouraging LL to take a break so perhaps the concerns were around LL's mental health and ability to practice? (JMO)
 
In my experience nurses on duty would normally not wait in the waiting room but would go straight through to be seen ...not to the detriment of very sick patients obviously ..especially if in the middle of a shift and well enough to return to shift
 
If the doc is as nice as he comes across you'd imagine him to have her back.
If he doesn't he was either stringing her along or confirmation bias imo
Does that mean if he's nice, he can't change his mind, and he has to be mistaken?
 
Does that mean if he's nice, he can't change his mind, and he has to be mistaken?
Why would he change his mind if he's giving an honest opinion?
He seems to have trusted her so if he says otherwise then he was either stringing her or bias imo
 
Why would he change his mind if he's giving an honest opinion?
He seems to have trusted her so if he says otherwise then he was either stringing her or bias imo
Because he finds out new information, for example.

People can trust others and then think they were wrong to trust them.

Where does honesty, niceness or bias come into it?
 
Because he finds out new information, for example.

People can trust others and then think they were wrong to trust them.

Where does honesty, niceness or bias come into it?
His txts to ll :)
 
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