UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #2

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These are all good points but I don't really see what the answer is. Indeed, the only real difference between something reported today and something reported 25 years ago is the accessibility of the information. The names would still have made the papers 25 years ago but you'd have had to go to a local library to trawl through the back issues to find them. Today you can send Mr Google out to find them.

The answer would obviously be to have an order in place prior to the names being given in court but when you start restricting what can and cannot be reported in a public trial you run into serious questions as to how open (or not) your justice system is. Following on from that, and regardless of how reasonable it appears to right thinking people, I think it will inevitably end up fuelling the conspira-loon types like that nutter in the States who claimed the various school shootings didn't happen. If the names of the victims were "covered up" (which is certainly how they will spin it) it will give a huge boost to fringe lunatics like him and their money generating juggernauts which is a very bad thing indeed.

No, I agree the way forward is very unclear, but it seems to me that the anomalies that arise make a nonsense of some of the rules, and that doesn't seem to me to be a good state of affairs.

A recent example that made no sense to me at all was the restricting of reporting on the youth in the Logan Mwangi murder (since lifted). I understand obviously why maintaining his anonymity was desirable until the guilty verdict was returned, but what I hadn't realised until it came up on the thread was that his name as a defendant would have been visible for all to see on signage at the court itself. So you could know his name, and discuss his name with your friends; you just couldn't report it in the media or read it there. As a state of affairs, this seems to me to be based on an idea of the news as something that gets brought to your village by a herald on a horse.

In this case, I have no clarity about why the victims can't be named. (If anyone can explain it that would be great!) I can see that the proceedings are distressing and invasive for their families, but that would be true for any murder trial. And, as I say, the names are already out there anyway.

Plus there seems to have been no such courtesy extended to the defendant prior to her being charged - for a whopping two years!

I suppose I feel that the rules are more likely to be observed if their good sense is obvious, so imo it would be good to have a royal commission into how to overhaul them to be more logical and consistent.
 
Sangita Lal
@sangitalal
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A nurse accused of murdering multiple babies has appeared in court this morning. She’s charged with murdering 5 boys and 2 girls and attempted murder of 10 babies. She denies all 17 counts out to her.

Court has been adjourned till tomorrow
I wonder whether this means that they've actually got a jury in place?
 
No, I agree the way forward is very unclear, but it seems to me that the anomalies that arise make a nonsense of some of the rules, and that doesn't seem to me to be a good state of affairs.

A recent example that made no sense to me at all was the restricting of reporting on the youth in the Logan Mwangi murder (since lifted). I understand obviously why maintaining his anonymity was desirable until the guilty verdict was returned, but what I hadn't realised until it came up on the thread was that his name as a defendant would have been visible for all to see on signage at the court itself. So you could know his name, and discuss his name with your friends; you just couldn't report it in the media or read it there. As a state of affairs, this seems to me to be based on an idea of the news as something that gets brought to your village by a herald on a horse.

In this case, I have no clarity about why the victims can't be named. (If anyone can explain it that would be great!) I can see that the proceedings are distressing and invasive for their families, but that would be true for any murder trial. And, as I say, the names are already out there anyway.

Plus there seems to have been no such courtesy extended to the defendant prior to her being charged - for a whopping two years!

I suppose I feel that the rules are more likely to be observed if their good sense is obvious, so imo it would be good to have a royal commission into how to overhaul them to be more logical and consistent.
Is it not possibly more than just victim protection or protecting LL? Maybe it’s also protection of medical professionals who are witnesses?
 
No, I agree the way forward is very unclear, but it seems to me that the anomalies that arise make a nonsense of some of the rules, and that doesn't seem to me to be a good state of affairs.

A recent example that made no sense to me at all was the restricting of reporting on the youth in the Logan Mwangi murder (since lifted). I understand obviously why maintaining his anonymity was desirable until the guilty verdict was returned, but what I hadn't realised until it came up on the thread was that his name as a defendant would have been visible for all to see on signage at the court itself. So you could know his name, and discuss his name with your friends; you just couldn't report it in the media or read it there. As a state of affairs, this seems to me to be based on an idea of the news as something that gets brought to your village by a herald on a horse.

In this case, I have no clarity about why the victims can't be named. (If anyone can explain it that would be great!) I can see that the proceedings are distressing and invasive for their families, but that would be true for any murder trial. And, as I say, the names are already out there anyway.

Plus there seems to have been no such courtesy extended to the defendant prior to her being charged - for a whopping two years!

I suppose I feel that the rules are more likely to be observed if their good sense is obvious, so imo it would be good to have a royal commission into how to overhaul them to be more logical and consistent.
Again, lots of relevant points here.

As to why the victims can't be named, it will almost certainly be down to human rights issues, I think. There is unquestionably a human rights issue as regarding the surviving children. They have a right to their private lives and releasing their names most certainly is a breach of that right. Indeed, the very fact that the Internet exists would be, I think, even more a compelling reason to keep those names protected as once they are out there are online forever. Breaching someone's rights can be done but it needs to be "reasonable and proportionate" I think the word "necessary" is in there somewhere too.

In the cases of the deceased children, human rights issues do not come into the equation as far as they themselves are concerned, but it does as regards their families. They have a right to their privacy and I think that repeated re-publication of their names could reasonably be held as being a breach of their rights to privacy. Justice needs to seen to be done, however, and in a case as serious as murder it would appear reasonable, at least to my way of thinking, that their names are reported so that it could not ever be claimed that the evil state was inventing victims in order to persecute people for political reasons.

There may also be evidential reasons as to why the names of the subjects of the attempted murder charges have been withheld. I was reading through the dates that the charges relate to last night. We know, as it's been reported, that two of the children she is alleged to have murdered were from a set of triplets. The dates of these two alleged offences were given as 23rd June 2016 and 24th June 2016. One of the attempted murder charges is stated as being 25th June 2016. Now, one could speculate that that charge might relate to the third child and, if so, it might be felt that releasing that name might be prejudicial to the case in either direction?

I get your points as regards LL's identity but, in fairness, neither the police nor the courts released her identity prior to her being charged, that was the media who found it via local sources. I'm not sure that there is any procedure for putting an order in place to restrict the naming of someone who has not been charged. It has been mooted for several years that defendants or suspects in serious cases should not be identified by the press but that would require a change in the law.
 

Short hearing takes place​

The defendant, wearing a dark suit, appeared in the dock on Tuesday as unreportable legal issues were aired.

Her parents, John, 76, and Susan, 62, watched as proceedings were relayed to annexe courtrooms attended by families of the children involved and members of the press.

The hearing has now been adjourned until Thursday when legal argument is expected to take place.

 
No, I agree the way forward is very unclear, but it seems to me that the anomalies that arise make a nonsense of some of the rules, and that doesn't seem to me to be a good state of affairs.

A recent example that made no sense to me at all was the restricting of reporting on the youth in the Logan Mwangi murder (since lifted). I understand obviously why maintaining his anonymity was desirable until the guilty verdict was returned, but what I hadn't realised until it came up on the thread was that his name as a defendant would have been visible for all to see on signage at the court itself. So you could know his name, and discuss his name with your friends; you just couldn't report it in the media or read it there. As a state of affairs, this seems to me to be based on an idea of the news as something that gets brought to your village by a herald on a horse.

In this case, I have no clarity about why the victims can't be named. (If anyone can explain it that would be great!) I can see that the proceedings are distressing and invasive for their families, but that would be true for any murder trial. And, as I say, the names are already out there anyway.

Plus there seems to have been no such courtesy extended to the defendant prior to her being charged - for a whopping two years!

I suppose I feel that the rules are more likely to be observed if their good sense is obvious, so imo it would be good to have a royal commission into how to overhaul them to be more logical and consistent.


something that gets brought to your village by a herald on a horse.


Wonderful - and so true.
 
I think the delay for legal argument, that cannot be reported, is a sign of how this case will play out.
Yes, I think you're right. However, is this "delay for legal argument thing", possibly something with the jury selection process given the potential length of this trial? It would seem reasonable that potential jury members need to remain anonymous, etc.
 
In this case, I have no clarity about why the victims can't be named. (If anyone can explain it that would be great!) I can see that the proceedings are distressing and invasive for their families, but that would be true for any murder trial. And, as I say, the names are already out there anyway.

Plus there seems to have been no such courtesy extended to the defendant prior to her being charged - for a whopping two years!

The restriction is there to protect minors, as they must be afforded the opportunity to grow and mature without being labelled, for whatever reason.

In the case of these young families. There may be surviving children or future children, who will no doubt be told when the time is appropriate. The parents/guardians must dictate this timeline in the best interests of the child, not by being outed in the press.....heaven forbid.

Adult offenders are named, often after charge, in the interests of transparent justice. I appreciate that there may be arguments against this in certain cases and indeed there are provisions to restrict naming an adult defendant, which a judge may bring into force.

To sum it up.....under 18 the default position is that the rights of the child outweigh the public interest. Over 18 and the default position is that public interest and transparent justice outweigh the rights of the individual.
 
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Yes, I think you're right. However, is this "delay for legal argument thing", possibly something with the jury selection process given the potential length of this trial? It would seem reasonable that potential jury members need to remain anonymous, etc.

Quite possibly the jury selection is involved. Jury members have anonymity per se. Neither can they ever repeat the discussion in the jury room, when ultimately considering their verdict.
 
The restriction is there to protect minors, as they must be afforded the opportunity to grow and mature without being labelled, for whatever reason.

In the case of these young families. There may be surviving children or future children, who will no doubt be told when the time is appropriate. The parents/guardians must dictate this timeline in the best interests of the child, not by being outed in the press.....heaven forbid.

Adult offenders are named, often after charge, in the interests of transparent justice. I appreciate that there may be arguments against this in certain cases and indeed there are provisions to restrict naming an adult defendant, which a judge may bring into force.

To sum it up.....under 18 the default position is that the rights of the child outweigh the public interest. Over 18 and the default position is that public interest and transparent justice outweigh the rights of the individual.

Yes, I understand it vis-a-vis the surviving babies, just not those that died. Or, if the rights of the families, including any siblings, are what is at issue, then I'm bemused as to why such a comprehensive list of the deceased babies and the dates involved was released without apparent concern following the magistrates' court hearing in 2020. It's the inconsistency that seems odd.

Unless, as @Marantz4250b's observation implies, the decision stems specifically from a family relationship between one or more deceased babies and another baby who survived. That's the only interpretation that currently makes sense to me, but it's pure speculation of course.

Just trying to understand.
 
Yes, I understand it vis-a-vis the surviving babies, just not those that died. Or, if the rights of the families, including any siblings, are what is at issue, then I'm bemused as to why such a comprehensive list of the deceased babies and the dates involved was released without apparent concern following the magistrates' court hearing in 2020. It's the inconsistency that seems odd.

Unless, as @Marantz4250b's observation implies, the decision stems specifically from a family relationship between one or more deceased babies and another baby who survived. That's the only interpretation that currently makes sense to me, but it's pure speculation of course.

Just trying to understand

My assessment is that the families, future children of the families and clinicians are all victims. The psychological impact of their experience will be enormous for most. I believe it is right that they should be protected from unwelcome intrusion as far as possible.

I agree that the current legislation, which provides for reporting restrictions, is not fit for the age of social media.

I feel that the default position should be for no disclosure of names, home addresses, photos, age, workplace or any other identifiable information from the point of arrest onwards, unless the police/courts authorise it/set limitations.
 
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My assessment is that the families, future children of the families and clinicians are all victims. The psychological impact of their experience will be enormous for most. I believe it is right that they should be protected from unwelcome intrusion as far as possible.

I agree that the current legislation, which provides for reporting restrictions, is not fit for the age of social media.

I feel that the default position should be for no disclosure of names, home addresses, photos, age, workplace or any other identifiable information from the point of arrest onwards, unless the police/courts authorise it/set limitations.

Agreed.
 
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