UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #24

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I really don't get what is "belittling" in this comment:
"We will dance the dance if you want to."

I took it as
"OK. We will do it your way if you really want to" -
a kind of wry humour IMO.

That’s exactly how it reads to me also.
I am hoping we have a full 5 day push next week but I don’t think anything has been confirmed anywhere that I can see. Fingers crossed.
 
NJ: "Do you remember interrupting [Child I]'s mother?"
LL: "No."
Mr Johnson says Child I's mother, in agreed evidence, recalled Letby was "smiling" and had talked about how Child I had been going on about 'enjoying' her bath. Child I had been bathed as part of the bereavement process following her passing.
NJ: "Why did you say that?"
LL: "It's trying to, in that awful situation - it wasn't meant with any malice. We still talk to them and treat them as if they were alive. It wasn't joking or...malice, it was trying to reflect on a happier memory."
NJ: "How can you say such things?"
LL: "She had her first bath when she was alive and that was what she had enjoyed, not the one when she had passed away."

This has been tough to read, following the death of a baby as the nurse you are very much led by the family regarding how much input they’d like. Generally try to leave them be as much as possible, but be available when they do need you.
IMO she didn’t read this family well at all, and it’s heartbreaking a mother still remember’s smiling LL after the death of her daughter.
 
What I find strange is that LL never seemed to question what was causing all the collapses and deaths. We haven’t seen any texts from her after the death of a child asking colleagues why this keeps happening, questioning whether it’s something she’s doing? Questioning her competence as a nurse because of how many devestating incidents have happened on her shift. Even the most innocent person would surely second guess themselves and try to get to the bottom of it?

LL is trying to come across as a competent, intelligent nurse who does everything by the book. The fact that she didn’t seem to question these events or ask colleagues if they thought it was something she’d missed or a mistake she’d made etc.. it just doesn’t gel with the image she’s trying to portray on the stand IMO. She’s saying other colleagues weren’t experienced or qualified enough to deal with certain babies, yet she was in her eyes better qualified than many of the other nurses, but in almost every single case a collapse seems to have happened to babies she was either caring for, had just provided care to, or was involved in the care of. Yet LL doesn’t seem to have twigged that the care she provided could be in any way a factor in a collapse.

I find it really unusual because from what we’ve heard of LL she was very work oriented, was thinking about the babies when she wasn’t on shift, was texting colleagues about work when they weren’t at work. She seemed borderline obsessed with the NNU… It doesn’t make sense that someone who seemed to be such a critical thinker as LL wasn’t desperately trying to work out what had caused these collapses, all of which she’d witnessed at some point either during resuscitation efforts or raising the alarm.

She wasn’t profoundly affected to the point she needed time off work, she wasn’t asking colleagues for their thoughts except for when she was offering explanations such as ‘overwhelming sepsis’ ‘extreme prematurity’.. at no point did she add up and realise the vast amount of incidents there had been, each one occurring while she was on shift. It just seemed to be business as usual for LL right up until she was removed from the unit IMO

All MOO
This case fascinates me and I’ve been quietly lurking from the beginning of the trial. I’m in the US and I’ve never followed a trial in the UK before. It’s very different.

I totally agree with everything you’ve said. I also question LL wanting the jury to believe there was a conspiracy of Drs against her to cover up hospital deficiencies when she keeps saying there were no staffing issues or nursing mistakes made at the time of just about every baby’s collapse. Is she trying to claim these babies died due to Dr errors?
 
She does seem to be undermining Myers. If it isn't staffing, incompetence or her. Then what does she think caused 22 collapses?? Hope NJ asks her
If asked that question, the wise response would be to respectfully remind the prosecutor that it is not her job to suggest alternative causes for the collapses/deaths. IMO
 
Letby, in her defence statement, said she had never seen a baby with stomas before at the Countess, and other doctors were "equally unsure about stomas", and the parents were "more proficient" than the Countess staff at dealing with stomas.
Yeah - about this. She may not have seen a stoma at a level 2 in her thankfully limited experience but that's because stomas are not that common. It certainly wouldn't be the first stoma they've seen at CoC.
It's frustrating the way she is 'capitalizing' on the parents 'transfer grief' - something that all parents go through when they move from a level 3 to a level 2. Whatever the circumstances.
Also, those doctors/ doctor was chasing her tail, likely affirming her views by means of reassurance, to get in her pants, no doubt. Jmo
 
What really struck me in LL's behaviour is that when poor Babies were reported screaming incessantly, she was found doing nothing - just observing.

I don't think it is normal.

People are conditioned to react somehow to children's crying - especially those who care for them.

JMO
 
Right so here's my account of the day. Sorry for the delay, it took me a long time getting back home. I didn't get in until 10pm, then was very sleepy.

I got there about 1:10pm @Tortoise so didn't hear anything about the jury. I don't think they talked about the jury though.

Lucy came across much better than I thought she would. I have seen her described as cocky, sulky, combative, robotic and petulant, but I just thought she seemed very articulate, confident and assertive. This could potentially be because I was seeing her on a different day to those previous descriptions.

In person, she has the capability of sounding very persuasive and is adept at creating extra meaning or impression just using the tone of her voice. It’s not what she says but how she says it. It’s only when you listen to what she’s actually saying - and sometimes what she fails to say - that you can hear her answers are sometimes inadequate, inappropriate or contradictory. She comes across as assertive and unflappable, even when massively caught out. She will say one thing, then say another thing in the next breath, and say both with absolute confidence as if they are both true. This is why it must have been such a big deal that she fell to pieces after her Freudian slip last week - she just seems unfazed by all questioning.

I can honestly see why, if guilty, she was so good at hiding herself. She has an attractive, soothing speaking voice and is so good at speaking for herself.

She comes across as much worse in print, because that only shows you the content of what she says, not how she says it. The “I don’t recalls” etc don’t seem as repetitive in person.

Some things are missed out in reporting. Nick Johnson makes her read out all the messages and nurse notes out loud. There is also a lot she agrees with (in terms of the nursing notes, timeline etc). She says “yes?” often with a tone to imply “yes, and where are you going with this?”

At one point, she did come across as bitchy, when she said “I had nothing to be jealous of”. Also, I don’t think it was reported but the messages to another nurse around the time of Baby J’s collapse included the other unnamed nurse bitching to Lucy about the nurse called Ailsa. I got the impression they’d bitched about her before.

Nick Johnson was absolutely gleeful at getting Lucy to admit she must have been at Baby K’s cot-side just before a collapse, due to a particular record she entered which would have required getting some papers from her cot. The telling off he got for “belittling” her followed lots of triumphant exchanges. I didn’t perceive that it was belittling. I think he has to emphasise when she’s caught out in a lie because she is so unflappable and doesn’t act at all like she’s been caught.

I think this catching her out about being by Baby K’s cot was the point when a lot of the viewing room sniggered, but I can’t be sure. It was very difficult to remember details, even from one afternoon, and it’s worrying the jury have to remember 10 months worth. It was also quite boring if I’m honest. There was lots of going through nurse notes and nurse allocations to ascertain where everyone was at what point. It was hard to follow at times, but the point was that Lucy was there at or before collapses. I think NJ should have taken more effort to sum up the timelines and main points for the jury.

When discussing the altered handwritten times in the nursing notes, Lucy said “we” about writing them in. NJ absolutely jumped on it and said “WE?!”

Another point I’m not sure came across in reporting is that premature twins were admitted as an emergency at 6:30am when baby J collapsed. There were not enough staff at that time of the morning and it was all hands on deck to deal with these twins, leaving other babies, including J, unattended to. I strongly got the impression that, if guilty, Lucy would have been trying to sabotage these twins at the same time as Baby J, by taking attention away from them.

Finally, in terms of appearance, Lucy has resting sad face. However, she is not actually sad as far as I can tell, it’s due to her features.

Her eyes have aged in a way that makes them look a bit scary. They are large, downturned and heavy-lidded and a bit sunken or deep-set. She has full lips always held in a miserable pout. Although all things considered she doesn’t look too bad for a 33 year old under a lot of stress. Her face as far as I can tell, is not very expressive. Her voice is very expressive but not emotionally.

She has been described as blinking a lot, it wasn’t that bad and I wouldn’t have noticed if I hadn’t looked at for it. I could only perceive it when comparing her to the female guards sitting next to her. It didn’t look like a nervous tic, it seems to be something her eyes naturally need to do and she does it whether she’s talking or not.

Her accent is some kind of Midlands accent (not Birmingham) and is very pleasant. Some words, like when she said “process” or “fittin’” sounded slightly Welsh.

I’ll see if I can remember anything else, and happy to take any questions.
 
What really struck me in LL's behaviour is that when poor Babies were reported screaming incessantly, she was found doing nothing - just observing.

I don't think it is normal.

People are conditioned to react somehow to children's crying - especially those who care for them.

JMO
And then after the alleged killing spree', trying to get back on the unit asap? What was that all about? And every month that past where she was not present just made it look worse and worse for LL. Suddenly, wait there were no longer any dying babies. What a great surprise.
That trend must have been very worrying for LL and let's be honest LL acted worried. Those notes she wrote on admin duty were not normal. They were representative of somebody who barely knew their own mind.
Before she came off the unit she also sounded completely wired. Like she was 'piquing' somewhat.
She was also like that around the time of the first cluster I think but by O&P she was off the scale imo.
 
Another point I’m not sure came across in reporting is that premature twins were admitted as an emergency at 6:30am when baby J collapsed. There were not enough staff at that time of the morning and it was all hands on deck to deal with these twins, leaving other babies, including J, unattended to. I strongly got the impression that, if guilty, Lucy would have been trying to sabotage these twins at the same time as Baby J, by taking attention away from them.
Thanks for your update, really informative.
Interesting about the other multiples, there's is a strong element of 'it doesn't rain but in pours' when it comes to multiples in the unit.
 
Right so here's my account of the day. Sorry for the delay, it took me a long time getting back home. I didn't get in until 10pm, then was very sleepy.

I got there about 1:10pm @Tortoise so didn't hear anything about the jury. I don't think they talked about the jury though.

Lucy came across much better than I thought she would. I have seen her described as cocky, sulky, combative, robotic and petulant, but I just thought she seemed very articulate, confident and assertive. This could potentially be because I was seeing her on a different day to those previous descriptions.

In person, she has the capability of sounding very persuasive and is adept at creating extra meaning or impression just using the tone of her voice. It’s not what she says but how she says it. It’s only when you listen to what she’s actually saying - and sometimes what she fails to say - that you can hear her answers are sometimes inadequate, inappropriate or contradictory. She comes across as assertive and unflappable, even when massively caught out. She will say one thing, then say another thing in the next breath, and say both with absolute confidence as if they are both true. This is why it must have been such a big deal that she fell to pieces after her Freudian slip last week - she just seems unfazed by all questioning.

I can honestly see why, if guilty, she was so good at hiding herself. She has an attractive, soothing speaking voice and is so good at speaking for herself.

She comes across as much worse in print, because that only shows you the content of what she says, not how she says it. The “I don’t recalls” etc don’t seem as repetitive in person.

Some things are missed out in reporting. Nick Johnson makes her read out all the messages and nurse notes out loud. There is also a lot she agrees with (in terms of the nursing notes, timeline etc). She says “yes?” often with a tone to imply “yes, and where are you going with this?”

At one point, she did come across as bitchy, when she said “I had nothing to be jealous of”. Also, I don’t think it was reported but the messages to another nurse around the time of Baby J’s collapse included the other unnamed nurse bitching to Lucy about the nurse called Ailsa. I got the impression they’d bitched about her before.

Nick Johnson was absolutely gleeful at getting Lucy to admit she must have been at Baby K’s cot-side just before a collapse, due to a particular record she entered which would have required getting some papers from her cot. The telling off he got for “belittling” her followed lots of triumphant exchanges. I didn’t perceive that it was belittling. I think he has to emphasise when she’s caught out in a lie because she is so unflappable and doesn’t act at all like she’s been caught.

I think this catching her out about being by Baby K’s cot was the point when a lot of the viewing room sniggered, but I can’t be sure. It was very difficult to remember details, even from one afternoon, and it’s worrying the jury have to remember 10 months worth. It was also quite boring if I’m honest. There was lots of going through nurse notes and nurse allocations to ascertain where everyone was at what point. It was hard to follow at times, but the point was that Lucy was there at or before collapses. I think NJ should have taken more effort to sum up the timelines and main points for the jury.

When discussing the altered handwritten times in the nursing notes, Lucy said “we” about writing them in. NJ absolutely jumped on it and said “WE?!”

Another point I’m not sure came across in reporting is that premature twins were admitted as an emergency at 6:30am when baby J collapsed. There were not enough staff at that time of the morning and it was all hands on deck to deal with these twins, leaving other babies, including J, unattended to. I strongly got the impression that, if guilty, Lucy would have been trying to sabotage these twins at the same time as Baby J, by taking attention away from them.

Finally, in terms of appearance, Lucy has resting sad face. However, she is not actually sad as far as I can tell, it’s due to her features.

Her eyes have aged in a way that makes them look a bit scary. They are large, downturned and heavy-lidded and a bit sunken or deep-set. She has full lips always held in a miserable pout. Although all things considered she doesn’t look too bad for a 33 year old under a lot of stress. Her face as far as I can tell, is not very expressive. Her voice is very expressive but not emotionally.

She has been described as blinking a lot, it wasn’t that bad and I wouldn’t have noticed if I hadn’t looked at for it. I could only perceive it when comparing her to the female guards sitting next to her. It didn’t look like a nervous tic, it seems to be something her eyes naturally need to do and she does it whether she’s talking or not.

Her accent is some kind of Midlands accent (not Birmingham) and is very pleasant. Some words, like when she said “process” or “fittin’” sounded slightly Welsh.

I’ll see if I can remember anything else, and happy to take any questions.
Hey thank you squish, that is so informative.

When she first took the stand reporters made a point of noting that she was easily startled and distracted by noises in the courtroom -

At one point Letby broke off while answering a question, appearing to be startled by a noise in the courtroom.
Mr Myers noticed her hesitancy and asked whether she was able to continue. “Yeah, I’m very easily distracted,” said Letby.
Her barrister asked: “Have you always been like that?”. “No,” she replied.
Earlier in the week – the 26th of her trial – Letby told the jury she was “easily startled” by unexpected noises as a result of the post-traumatic stress disorder she has suffered since her initial arrest in July 2018.

Lucy Letby tells jury death of twin baby came as a 'complete shock'

Did she exhibit any signs of this while you were there?

Also did they say anything about timetabling for next week, is it set to run every day do you know?

How did it go down, in your opinion, with the prosecutor's claims of her cooking the records, by altering the times in the records at the time of baby I's collapse? Was it clearly demonstrated do you think? And the question about her understanding the difference between life and death, how did that come over?

I understand completely if you'd prefer not to answer any of these questions.
 
In person, she has the capability of sounding very persuasive and is adept at creating extra meaning or impression just using the tone of her voice. It’s not what she says but how she says it. It’s only when you listen to what she’s actually saying - and sometimes what she fails to say - that you can hear her answers are sometimes inadequate, inappropriate or contradictory. She comes across as assertive and unflappable, even when massively caught out. She will say one thing, then say another thing in the next breath, and say both with absolute confidence as if they are both true. This is why it must have been such a big deal that she fell to pieces after her Freudian slip last week - she just seems unfazed by all questioning.

I can honestly see why, if guilty, she was so good at hiding herself.
<RSBM>

Sorry to quote you again, but this is extremely interesting, to me. So important to the case, I think, to know whether she is self-assured or meek and acquiescent, and whether she has manipulative skills/qualities, if guilty.

MOO
 
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