UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #24

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<RSBM>

Sorry to quote you again, but this is extremely interesting, to me. So important to the case, I think, to know whether she is self-assured or meek and acquiescent, and whether she has manipulative skills/qualities, if guilty.

MOO
If you are interested someone else has posted their thoughts on the subreddit having also attended the trial yesterday, and gave some opinion on how they feel LL comes across.
 
Hey thank you squish, that is so informative.

When she first took the stand reporters made a point of noting that she was easily startled and distracted by noises in the courtroom -

At one point Letby broke off while answering a question, appearing to be startled by a noise in the courtroom.
Mr Myers noticed her hesitancy and asked whether she was able to continue. “Yeah, I’m very easily distracted,” said Letby.
Her barrister asked: “Have you always been like that?”. “No,” she replied.
Earlier in the week – the 26th of her trial – Letby told the jury she was “easily startled” by unexpected noises as a result of the post-traumatic stress disorder she has suffered since her initial arrest in July 2018.

Lucy Letby tells jury death of twin baby came as a 'complete shock'

Did she exhibit any signs of this while you were there?

Also did they say anything about timetabling for next week, is it set to run every day do you know?

How did it go down, in your opinion, with the prosecutor's claims of her cooking the records, by altering the times in the records at the time of baby I's collapse? Was it clearly demonstrated do you think? And the question about her understanding the difference between life and death, how did that come over?

I understand completely if you'd prefer not to answer any of these questions.

She seemed calm to me! Not evidence of being potentially easily startled. She was looking around, but normally, not nervously. Also NJ or some other male kept coughing loudly and she didn’t flinch.

Nothing about timetabling as far as I know.

I’m not sure, I think NJ could have done a better job summarising. It was obvious the times had been changed on the hand written records, and it was obvious what he was getting at. Lucy was unfazed as ever, saying she doesn’t agree with that etc. It was during this part of questioning that Lucy said “I don’t believe we would have done that” regarding changing the time, and NJ was like “WE?!”. Saying we to avoid personal responsibility is one of her tactics.

About understanding life and death, I think that was when she was justifying herself about saying to Baby I’s mum that she (Lucy) was there for her first bath and how much Baby I loved it. (This was after she claimed she didn’t remember saying it). After NJ said that she said something like “when a baby passes we talk about them as if they’re still alive” (using we again) and that she wasn’t saying the baby enjoyed the bath after she had passed.

Something else I remembered, she very often asks extremely stupid questions to try to avoid answering. This tactic is really obvious in print, but again in real life she says it in a very realistic tone of voice.

One time in the middle of talking about Baby I, Lucy said (not real name) “Rosie?” and NJ said something like, you know who were talking about.
 
She seemed calm to me! Not evidence of being potentially easily startled. She was looking around, but normally, not nervously. Also NJ or some other male kept coughing loudly and she didn’t flinch.

Nothing about timetabling as far as I know.

I’m not sure, I think NJ could have done a better job summarising. It was obvious the times had been changed on the hand written records, and it was obvious what he was getting at. Lucy was unfazed as ever, saying she doesn’t agree with that etc. It was during this part of questioning that Lucy said “I don’t believe we would have done that” regarding changing the time, and NJ was like “WE?!”. Saying we to avoid personal responsibility is one of her tactics.

About understanding life and death, I think that was when she was justifying herself about saying to Baby I’s mum that she (Lucy) was there for her first bath and how much Baby I loved it. (This was after she claimed she didn’t remember saying it). After NJ said that she said something like “when a baby passes we talk about them as if they’re still alive” (using we again) and that she wasn’t saying the baby enjoyed the bath after she had passed.

Something else I remembered, she very often asks extremely stupid questions to try to avoid answering. This tactic is really obvious in print, but again in real life she says it in a very realistic tone of voice.

One time in the middle of talking about Baby I, Lucy said (not real name) “Rosie?” and NJ said something like, you know who were talking about.
I just got a fit of the giggles thinking that maybe someone is coughing loudly on purpose. I have a dark sense of humour. :D

It's just my opinion but I think LL saying they talk about the babies as if they're still alive, and not saying she was enjoying the bath, is another example of what you've described there about avoiding answering. I don't think the mum was saying that LL talking to the baby was what upset her, or that she was suggesting the baby was enjoying it, it was her whole upbeat attitude, chatter and going on about her first bath which would have been painful for the mum at that moment, IMO. She's had time to think about what she's going to say about this and I think it still misses the mark.
 
She seemed calm to me! Not evidence of being potentially easily startled. She was looking around, but normally, not nervously. Also NJ or some other male kept coughing loudly and she didn’t flinch.

Nothing about timetabling as far as I know.

I’m not sure, I think NJ could have done a better job summarising. It was obvious the times had been changed on the hand written records, and it was obvious what he was getting at. Lucy was unfazed as ever, saying she doesn’t agree with that etc. It was during this part of questioning that Lucy said “I don’t believe we would have done that” regarding changing the time, and NJ was like “WE?!”. Saying we to avoid personal responsibility is one of her tactics.

About understanding life and death, I think that was when she was justifying herself about saying to Baby I’s mum that she (Lucy) was there for her first bath and how much Baby I loved it. (This was after she claimed she didn’t remember saying it). After NJ said that she said something like “when a baby passes we talk about them as if they’re still alive” (using we again) and that she wasn’t saying the baby enjoyed the bath after she had passed.

Something else I remembered, she very often asks extremely stupid questions to try to avoid answering. This tactic is really obvious in print, but again in real life she says it in a very realistic tone of voice.

One time in the middle of talking about Baby I, Lucy said (not real name) “Rosie?” and NJ said something like, you know who were talking about.
Umm...

Her seemingly being unfazed and calm might be the effect of some anti anxiety meds IMO.
And her permanently "sad face" just hints of depression.

Re "asking stupid questions"
reminds me of "playing dumb" by some teen students when being questioned at school about silly practical jokes.
They usually also look like "butter wouldn't melt....." while feigning innocence.
Oh, and they sound soooo convincing ;)

JMO
 
I just got a fit of the giggles thinking that maybe someone is coughing loudly on purpose. I have a dark sense of humour. :D

It's just my opinion but I think LL saying they talk about the babies as if they're still alive, and not saying she was enjoying the bath, is another example of what you've described there about avoiding answering. I don't think the mum was saying that LL talking to the baby was what upset her, or that she was suggesting the baby was enjoying it, it was her whole upbeat attitude, chatter and going on about her first bath which would have been painful for the mum at that moment, IMO. She's had time to think about what she's going to say about this and I think it still misses the mark.

LOL, if the coughing was NJ, maybe he was proving a point!

Sometimes what Lucy doesn't say is what's important, and this was one of those cases for me. This was one of the questions where she did actually attempt to give a full and mostly honest answer, but it was still not quite right. After claiming she didn't remember saying it, she then in the next breath went into a long explanation of how she didn't mean it with any malice, in this awful situation she was trying to reflect on something nice, blah blah. But if she's implicitly acknowledging that her behaviour could have come across as malicious, then why is she not apologising to the bereaved mother that she hurt with these words? She should be saying, "I'm sorry if I got it wrong, I've never been in that horrible situation myself and I was trying to be nice". But of course she never takes responsibility for anything. Instead, she was arguing and justifying her choice of words.
 
Umm...

Her seemingly being unfazed and calm might be the effect of some anti anxiety meds IMO.
And her permanently "sad face" just hints of depression.

Re "asking stupid questions"
reminds me of "playing dumb" by some teen students when being questioned at school about silly practical jokes.
They usually also look like "butter wouldn't melt....." while feigning innocence.
Oh, and they sound soooo convincing ;)

JMO

I think she's on anti-depressants but not anti-anxieties. The sad face I think is just her natural features! She didn't actually look or act sad.

Yes that was exactly what it's like, except she uses her tone of voice well to look like her questions are genuine. If the content of her questions wasn't so childishly stupid, she would get away with it.
 
LOL, if the coughing was NJ, maybe he was proving a point!

Sometimes what Lucy doesn't say is what's important, and this was one of those cases for me. This was one of the questions where she did actually attempt to give a full and mostly honest answer, but it was still not quite right. After claiming she didn't remember saying it, she then in the next breath went into a long explanation of how she didn't mean it with any malice, in this awful situation she was trying to reflect on something nice, blah blah. But if she's implicitly acknowledging that her behaviour could have come across as malicious, then why is she not apologising to the bereaved mother that she hurt with these words? She should be saying, "I'm sorry if I got it wrong, I've never been in that horrible situation myself and I was trying to be nice". But of course she never takes responsibility for anything. Instead, she was arguing and justifying her choice of words.
I agree.

And there'll be more of this when we get to baby P and her allegedly inappropriate and excited behaviour, offering a memory box as if it was a bounty pack.
 
If you are interested someone else has posted their thoughts on the subreddit having also attended the trial yesterday, and gave some opinion on how they feel LL comes across.

This is interesting, some of their interpretations were very different from mine.

My interpretations of body language are quite bad as I have Asperger’s
 
This is interesting, some of their interpretations were very different from mine.

My interpretations of body language are quite bad as I have Asperger’s
I’m useless at reading body language. If I attended court I expect my conclusion would be that she is simultaneously both guilty and innocent. Schrödinger’s serial killer.
 
I expect my conclusion would be that she is simultaneously both guilty and innocent. Schrödinger’s serial killer.
Until you open the box :)
(But it has nothing to do with the cat)
 
Right so here's my account of the day. Sorry for the delay, it took me a long time getting back home. I didn't get in until 10pm, then was very sleepy.

I got there about 1:10pm @Tortoise so didn't hear anything about the jury. I don't think they talked about the jury though.

Lucy came across much better than I thought she would. I have seen her described as cocky, sulky, combative, robotic and petulant, but I just thought she seemed very articulate, confident and assertive. This could potentially be because I was seeing her on a different day to those previous descriptions.

In person, she has the capability of sounding very persuasive and is adept at creating extra meaning or impression just using the tone of her voice. It’s not what she says but how she says it. It’s only when you listen to what she’s actually saying - and sometimes what she fails to say - that you can hear her answers are sometimes inadequate, inappropriate or contradictory. She comes across as assertive and unflappable, even when massively caught out. She will say one thing, then say another thing in the next breath, and say both with absolute confidence as if they are both true. This is why it must have been such a big deal that she fell to pieces after her Freudian slip last week - she just seems unfazed by all questioning.

I can honestly see why, if guilty, she was so good at hiding herself. She has an attractive, soothing speaking voice and is so good at speaking for herself.

She comes across as much worse in print, because that only shows you the content of what she says, not how she says it. The “I don’t recalls” etc don’t seem as repetitive in person.

Some things are missed out in reporting. Nick Johnson makes her read out all the messages and nurse notes out loud. There is also a lot she agrees with (in terms of the nursing notes, timeline etc). She says “yes?” often with a tone to imply “yes, and where are you going with this?”

At one point, she did come across as bitchy, when she said “I had nothing to be jealous of”. Also, I don’t think it was reported but the messages to another nurse around the time of Baby J’s collapse included the other unnamed nurse bitching to Lucy about the nurse called Ailsa. I got the impression they’d bitched about her before.

Nick Johnson was absolutely gleeful at getting Lucy to admit she must have been at Baby K’s cot-side just before a collapse, due to a particular record she entered which would have required getting some papers from her cot. The telling off he got for “belittling” her followed lots of triumphant exchanges. I didn’t perceive that it was belittling. I think he has to emphasise when she’s caught out in a lie because she is so unflappable and doesn’t act at all like she’s been caught.

I think this catching her out about being by Baby K’s cot was the point when a lot of the viewing room sniggered, but I can’t be sure. It was very difficult to remember details, even from one afternoon, and it’s worrying the jury have to remember 10 months worth. It was also quite boring if I’m honest. There was lots of going through nurse notes and nurse allocations to ascertain where everyone was at what point. It was hard to follow at times, but the point was that Lucy was there at or before collapses. I think NJ should have taken more effort to sum up the timelines and main points for the jury.

When discussing the altered handwritten times in the nursing notes, Lucy said “we” about writing them in. NJ absolutely jumped on it and said “WE?!”

Another point I’m not sure came across in reporting is that premature twins were admitted as an emergency at 6:30am when baby J collapsed. There were not enough staff at that time of the morning and it was all hands on deck to deal with these twins, leaving other babies, including J, unattended to. I strongly got the impression that, if guilty, Lucy would have been trying to sabotage these twins at the same time as Baby J, by taking attention away from them.

Finally, in terms of appearance, Lucy has resting sad face. However, she is not actually sad as far as I can tell, it’s due to her features.

Her eyes have aged in a way that makes them look a bit scary. They are large, downturned and heavy-lidded and a bit sunken or deep-set. She has full lips always held in a miserable pout. Although all things considered she doesn’t look too bad for a 33 year old under a lot of stress. Her face as far as I can tell, is not very expressive. Her voice is very expressive but not emotionally.

She has been described as blinking a lot, it wasn’t that bad and I wouldn’t have noticed if I hadn’t looked at for it. I could only perceive it when comparing her to the female guards sitting next to her. It didn’t look like a nervous tic, it seems to be something her eyes naturally need to do and she does it whether she’s talking or not.

Her accent is some kind of Midlands accent (not Birmingham) and is very pleasant. Some words, like when she said “process” or “fittin’” sounded slightly Welsh.

I’ll see if I can remember anything else, and happy to take any questions.
Much appreciated for this. I don’t know if this has been mentioned already as I’m still catching up- but I wanted to just share (totally irrelevant in a way), I’m not too far from where she lives: her accent is Herefordshire which is on the Welsh boarder. Some residents of the Herefordshire area do and can have that sort of slight or near Welsh hint to their accent depending how close in Herefordshire they are to wales.

I understand of course accents can change/relocation etc but to me she sounds typically spoken for a midlands/Herefordshire resident really.
Random useless information here lol but thank you for sharing some interesting observations and I hope you managed to rest well when you got home.
 
Many thanks @squish for your brilliant report. You could have a career in writing! (or do you already?) Your description of her person, voice, and demeanor was so interesting, and certainly not what I was expecting. I had not been picturing a person so articulate, and with so much confidence and self-assurance. It is easier to understand now how she managed to "fly under the radar" (if guilty, of course.) I wonder if she has presented like this for pretty much all of her life. Definitely not the "poor little Lucy" I had been thinking.
 
Her seemingly being unfazed and calm might be the effect of some anti anxiety meds IMO.
And her permanently "sad face" just hints of depression.
Re "asking stupid questions"
reminds me of "playing dumb" by some teen students when being questioned at school about silly practical jokes.
They usually also look like "butter wouldn't melt....." while feigning innocence.
Oh, and they sound soooo convincing ;)

JMO
This reminds me of my son as a teenager. I could pretty much tell every time when he was lying, and of course that annoyed him immensely! And I only told him how I did it about 10 years later. It was not that he was a poor liar, it was that he was too good a liar! As you say Dotta, soooo convincing. :)
 
I had not been picturing a person so articulate, and with so much confidence and self-assurance. It is easier to understand now how she managed to "fly under the radar" (if guilty, of course.) I wonder if she has presented like this for pretty much all of her life. Definitely not the "poor little Lucy" I had been thinking.
Exactly!

If guilty...

Nice appearance, pleasant, well modulated voice and self confidence always seem powerful weapon of (serial) killers.

No wonder
"Trust me, I'm a nurse"
(allegedly) deceived even Mother's instinct :(

JMO
 
Does anyone know if the court is due to run Monday Tuesday Wednesday at the very least next week ? I have booked my hotel so hopefully it goes ahead tomorrow.
Good luck!

Wow!
Who knows - there might even be "Websleuths corner" in the room :)
And please, don't forget about us here waiting for your observations!
 
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