UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #9

[Marantz4250b]

"Has any serial killer ever written anything like this? I can't think of any, tbh."

Serial Killer Diaries

Some serial killers record their horrific deeds in writing, which often hurts them when they're caught.

www.psychologytoday.com

• Some serial killers keep written records of their deeds, due to a pathological need for control or desire to relive their worst acts.
• Killers who logged their crimes included Dennis Rader, the “B.T.K.” serial killer, and Melvin Rees, aka "The Sex Beast."
• Serial killers who keep records of their crimes are often compelled to do so, despite the increased risk of being found out.

Yes, I definitely get that, it's not uncommon.

LL's note is completely different, though. It clearly isn't contemporary to the crimes. It's not a diary or journal of offending, nor is it a written record of things done, made after the fact for "posterity" or to create some great mythology around her if she's actually guilty.

That note is an outpouring of emotion, emotions which are clearly all over the place. It's obviously written well after the events she's accused of and almost certainly after she was no longer actively working at the hospital. The overwhelming emotion I take from that note is fear; guilty or not, she is clearly absolutely terrified of what is happening and where it's all going to end up. The other main emotion seems to be despondency - she's expressing hopelessness at what's left of her life.

Have any serial killers ever written notes expressing similar fears? Serial killers rarely seem to be terrified for themselves and their future. They seem to worry about getting caught and not being able to kill again or being bested by the police rather than being worried for their own emotional wellbeing and domestic future.

Again, it's one of the things, the many, many things which makes this case so different from anything I've ever known before.

All my own opinion, obvs.

 

[ColourPurple]

Well if she's guilty it would be apparent that she was tricking everyone into believing all sorts of things that weren't true, with all of her texts. It's another form of manipulation of her environment to avoid detection, as is making alleged false nursing notes and allegedly lying about things like the mother's visit, the doctor's advice, and claiming to have found the monitor off, that would give her away. JMO

Plus she never actually did leave. She was still there right up to the point when she was moved to clerical duties, nine months later.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Well if she's guilty it would be apparent that she was tricking everyone into believing all sorts of things that weren't true, with all of her texts. It's another form of manipulation of her environment to avoid detection, as is making alleged false nursing notes and allegedly lying about things like the mother's visit, the doctor's advice, and claiming to have found the monitor off, that would give her away. JMO

I get all that but, as the poster I replied to mentioned, the texts she sent about that had a fairly genuine sounding air to them, to be honest. Obviously we can't say for sure but they seemed pretty honest to me.

 

[Tortoise]

I get all that but, as the poster I replied to mentioned, the texts she sent about that had a fairly genuine sounding air to them, to be honest. Obviously we can't say for sure but they seemed pretty honest to me.

LL & 2nd colleague then discuss about looking “at a change of unit”.

LL: “I still think about the women’s, if only it were closer, would make decision much easier.”

What about these makes them seem honest to you?

 

[WaxLyrical]

Regarding the note, and the word ‘forget’. My interpretation is it says “forget everything everyone”, the everything and everyone are written in the rows below. I suspect those words were written separately to the stuff on the left hand side (and the stuff on the right hand side). The writing and ink is slightly different.

 

[ColourPurple]

Yes, I definitely get that, it's not uncommon.

LL's note is completely different, though. It clearly isn't contemporary to the crimes. It's not a diary or journal of offending, nor is it a written record of things done, made after the fact for "posterity" or to create some great mythology around her if she's actually guilty.

That note is an outpouring of emotion, emotions which are clearly all over the place. It's obviously written well after the events she's accused of and almost certainly after she was no longer actively working at the hospital. The overwhelming emotion I take from that note is fear; guilty or not, she is clearly absolutely terrified of what is happening and where it's all going to end up. The other main emotion seems to be despondency - she's expressing hopelessness at what's left of her life.

Have any serial killers ever written notes expressing similar fears? Serial killers rarely seem to be terrified for themselves and their future. They seem to worry about getting caught and not being able to kill again or being bested by the police rather than being worried for their own emotional wellbeing and domestic future.

Again, it's one of the things, the many, many things which makes this case so different from anything I've ever known before.

All my own opinion, obvs.

Apart from the fact that we don't really know much about her personality, I'm not sure that comparing her to other serial killers is the answer, because her alleged crimes are so different to the majority of serial killers, so her mindset and/or personality is likely to be too.

If guilty, she didn't have to go out and take risks trying to find victims. She didn't have to attack them out in the open, or physically overpower them. Or break into their homes, or lure them back to her home, or do anything to incapacitate them. Or dispose of their bodies, or worry about being seen (or tracked via phone signal) to where their bodies were found, or worry about any survivors being able to talk and report her to the police if she was unsuccessful.

If guilty, her crimes all took place in an evironment she was familiar with and comfortable in, and trusted in, and where death was not completely unheard of. Both she and the alleged victims had a legitimate reason to be in that environment, she had legitimate access to the tools/drugs she allegedly used to kill or try to kill the victims with, and the opportunity to create false records of events if needed. And, if she was "unsuccessful" the victims were babies and couldn't tell anybody.

Maybe looking for similarities with other hospital/nurse/medic serial killers could have some use but I'm not sure that comparing her to all serial killers and then concluding that she can't be guilty as she doesn't act like them is a good way to decide on her guilt. Better just to judge whether she could be guilty, based on the evidence that's presented in court.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I agree. One would think that any serial killer would be desperate to stay in what is clearly a chaotic environment. It surely makes it much more difficult to spot someone killing patients if everyone is burned out through overwork? Also, if she was simply incompetent or negligent, and knew it, wouldn't you just want to stay in order to hide your failings?

it would be very much in her interests if she was a serial killer to stay in a place with ample opportunity to achieve a desire to kill not only that but it’s good cover for it as well. Moving to a woman’s unit where her only potential victims are grown adults and potential witnesses rather than non verbal babies is also not fitting for a cunning predator. I would also think baby H‘s condition which is obviously dire would give a cold killer a excuse to make sure their attempt was successful which is not what we see. I might think that real interference from someone who has the capacity and ambition to kill would achieve the desired result Especially in one so fragile. I’m not sure what the alleged method for baby h was. Looking at some articles it’s mentioned by the prosecution that she would have cover to access baby h’s lines Suggesting intravenous air embolism but there is no typical accompanying symptoms And considering her condition I wouldn’t think she would survive the strain and go on to make a full recovery without complications. It would seem these events were not too damaging suggesting mild collapses.

that note is actually nearly all feeling and warm language not like those records kept noted in that article. Look at the language and style of writing. It’s almost clinically cold and that’s what we find surprising when it comes to sk’s. The almost complete emotional detachment from their victims.

What about these makes them seem honest to you?

Easy. The presence of the words “much easier”. This suggests the only thing holding her back is location rather than a desire to stay on the unit. She doesn’t mention at all any particular desire to be on the NNU. In my opinion if she were actively trying to deceive people she would say she wanted to go to the other hospital but her love of babies is what’s making her stay. She would be portraying herself in a heroic light which she never does, that would also potentially give away An inflated ego present in most psychopaths and serial killers. She doesn’t emphasise her own sufferings or indeed herself at all really seemingly ever Even when aggrieved by the recent bitchiness. In fact her response to those perceived insults is actually quite level headed not what you could expect from someone with a big ego. These are also personal coms in essence a chance for LL to show her real colours or at least something like it, but her language doesn’t actually drastically change if at all suggesting she isn’t putting on a act. I’m really not thinking it would be possible to put On an act to that degree, continuously and successfully without a single slip up.

JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

Regarding the note, and the word ‘forget’. My interpretation is it says “forget everything everyone”, the everything and everyone are written in the rows below. I suspect those words were written separately to the stuff on the left hand side (and the stuff on the right hand side). The writing and ink is slightly different.

Good point. I think you could be right . I think the "kill myself right now" part above could be part of that too.

Kill myself right now.
Forget everything
Everyone

'I AM EVIL. I DID THIS': Post-It notes written by nurse Lucy Letby

On day four of her trial at Manchester Crown Court the jury was told that messages written by Lucy Letby, 32, were found at her home after her arrest including one that said: 'I killed them on purpose.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[ColourPurple]

it would be very much in her interests if she was a serial killer to stay in a place with ample opportunity to achieve a desire to kill not only that but it’s good cover for it as well.

Which is exactly what she did. She didn't actually leave. She was still there till the hospital had to move her to clerical duties

Moving to a woman’s unit where her only potential victims are grown adults and potential witnesses rather than non verbal babies is also not fitting for a cunning predator....

Easy. The presence of the words “much easier”. This suggests the only thing holding her back is location rather than a desire to stay on the unit. She doesn’t mention at all any particular desire to be on the NNU. In my opinion if she were actively trying to deceive people she would say she wanted to go to the other hospital but her love of babies is what’s making her stay.

If its Liverpool women's hospital she's referring to, they have a neonatal unit

Neonatal Unit

Neonatal Leaflets

www.liverpoolwomens.nhs.uk

 

[Becci]

As mentioned previously, I think it's highly unlikely that this was written on any one specific date. There just too many differing emotions and subjects for it to have been.

It also reads like parts of it are references to possible conversations with other people are legal representatives. "I did this...because I'm Evil" could be what she's heard people are saying as it still reads logically if you put "They say..." in front of it.

It's just another thing about this case that just seems so out of line with every other similar case of serial killing (not that I'm saying that she's guilty). Has any serial killer ever written anything like this? I can't think of any, tbh.

Just my opinion.

We must think similar lol
I read the note as "they think" i killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care. They think i did this, they think i am evil exc...
Thoughts & feelings but i suppose only she can answer that.
Also if people were becoming worried about her work why ask her to work extra shifts?
She seemed to hint enough of how tired she was but feels bad saying no.
All these texts from yesterday at trial go in her favour. Nowt incriminating imo

 

[Sundial]

Yeah that's fair enough but if that's the case then don't moan about being tired when you've agreed to do it. I'm being flippant obviously, just because I don't think it's a major detail in the case. It was just something that I commented on originally and Sundial responded to.

I agree with this sentiment completely.

And in any case, as a NURSE whose hours are long and tiring as it is, all this chaos and deaths of tiny infants, putting herself forward for extra shifts when she’s already stating burnt out; is a massive risk with people’s lives. The difference between someone living and dying; if she’s struggling with burn out she should not be putting herself forward for extra shifts regardless to “why” she felt she needed them. It’s not safe.

In earlier evidence (when other colleagues even dismissed staffing was an issue), it was heard then that her colleagues were expressing genuine concern about her.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Apart from the fact that we don't really know much about her personality, I'm not sure that comparing her to other serial killers is the answer, because her alleged crimes are so different to the majority of serial killers, so her mindset and/or personality is likely to be too.

If guilty, she didn't have to go out and take risks trying to find victims. She didn't have to attack them out in the open, or physically overpower them. Or break into their homes, or lure them back to her home, or do anything to incapacitate them. Or dispose of their bodies, or worry about being seen (or tracked via phone signal) to where their bodies were found, or worry about any survivors being able to talk and report her to the police if she was unsuccessful.

If guilty, her crimes all took place in an evironment she was familiar with and comfortable in, and trusted in, and where death was not completely unheard of. Both she and the alleged victims had a legitimate reason to be in that environment, she had legitimate access to the tools/drugs she allegedly used to kill or try to kill the victims with, and the opportunity to create false records of events if needed. And, if she was "unsuccessful" the victims were babies and couldn't tell anybody.

Maybe looking for similarities with other hospital/nurse/medic serial killers could have some use but I'm not sure that comparing her to all serial killers and then concluding that she can't be guilty as she doesn't act like them is a good way to decide on her guilt. Better just to judge whether she could be guilty, based on the evidence that's presented in court.

I would agree on your statement of guilt or innocence but we can figure out her personality by looking at her use of language and behaviour across time. As well as others accounts of her, past history, interests etc. That’s the way the pro’s do it. Again assuming one doesnt say she could be deceiving everyone all of the time which just isn’t realistic. IMO

Which is exactly what she did. She didn't actually leave. She was still there till the hospital had to move her to clerical duties

If its Liverpool women's hospital she's referring to, they have a neonatal unit

Neonatal Unit

Neonatal Leaflets

www.liverpoolwomens.nhs.uk

yip she stayed in the place where it is alleged she has killed numerous babies and caused numerous collapses whereas if she was actually that cunning and that premeditated and that deceitful and that clever and actually had a desire to kill one might think she would realise it is actually in her interests to move hospital to a place where she can kill or harm with a clean slate and with less suspicion. Again that’s not what we see, she stays in the place where even she seems to notice the unusual nature of events But like someone who is actually blind to any potential wrongdoing and potential risk to herself she stays there. thats not what you could expect from someone who knows she is doing seriously top league evil. She is so not acting like someone who has something to hide.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

Yes, I definitely get that, it's not uncommon.

LL's note is completely different, though. It clearly isn't contemporary to the crimes. It's not a diary or journal of offending, nor is it a written record of things done, made after the fact for "posterity" or to create some great mythology around her if she's actually guilty.

I don't think we know what the purpose of the writings were. They seemed to be a mix of various types, all crammed together.
I cannot rule out all of the things above, as not being part of these writings. It does seem like a journal, expressing innocence and also guilt, and a written record of some things done, made after the fact.

That note is an outpouring of emotion, emotions which are clearly all over the place. It's obviously written well after the events she's accused of and almost certainly after she was no longer actively working at the hospital. The overwhelming emotion I take from that note is fear; guilty or not, she is clearly absolutely terrified of what is happening and where it's all going to end up. The other main emotion seems to be despondency - she's expressing hopelessness at what's left of her life.

I'm not sure that fear is the overwhelming emotion in these notes. IMO, there is fear but also anger, frustration, and some confusion. Also shame and regret... and bitterness.

There are also conflicting emotions.

'I haven't done anything wrong and they have no evidence so why have I had to hide away?'

versus

"I don't deserve to live. I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care for them", "I am a horrible evil person"
"I AM EVIL I DID THIS"

Have any serial killers ever written notes expressing similar fears? Serial killers rarely seem to be terrified for themselves and their future. They seem to worry about getting caught and not being able to kill again or being bested by the police rather than being worried for their own emotional wellbeing and domestic future.

I don't know that we can compare these writings with those of other alleged serial killers because this is such a different type of case. I have rarely seen such a shockingly vulnerable, innocent, group of murder victims targeted before.

Serial killers often target vulnerable victims like transients, the homeless, runaways, sex workers, drug addicts, etc because they are such easy targets. And sadly also because they have fewer people watching out for them and advocating for them.

They are an easy target and sometimes the public tends to blame them partially for being in that vulnerable position.

I have never heard of a health worker allegedly targeting premature infants , let alone in such a relentless and horrific fashion. It is baffling and astonishing if true.

Again, it's one of the things, the many, many things which makes this case so different from anything I've ever known before.

All my own opinion, obvs.

'There are no words. I am an awful person. I pay everyday for that'

I think this^^^ was a very honest and revealing statement.

 

[katydid23]

I would agree on your statement of guilt or innocence but we can figure out her personality by looking at her use of language and behaviour across time. As well as others accounts of her, past history, interests etc. That’s the way the pro’s do it. Again assuming one doesnt say she could be deceiving everyone all of the time which just isn’t realistic. IMO

Yes, that^^ is how the pros do it. They look closely at her past behaviours, her many interviews over the time span, her past history, her interests, her family and associations, her co-workers and bosses, etc.

And that is what this task force investigation did for the past several years before coming to their decision to bring these charges.

yip she stayed in the place where it is alleged she has killed numerous babies and caused numerous collapses whereas if she was actually that cunning and that premeditated and that deceitful and that clever and actually had a desire to kill one might think she would realise it is actually in her interests to move hospital to a place where she can kill or harm with a clean slate and with less suspicion. Again that’s not what we see, she stays in the place where even she seems to notice the unusual nature of events But like someone who is actually blind to any potential wrongdoing and potential risk to herself she stays there. thats not what you could expect from someone who knows she is doing seriously top league evil. She is so not acting like someone who has something to hide.

JMO

I agree that she did not act like she had something to hide. But I am not sure that is automatically evidence of non guilt. It could also be that she allegedly performed certain actions in order to receive attention and sympathy and to be able to watch what results from those alleged actions.

So she allegedly stays put in the same places the tragedies are occurring because that is allegedly what fuels her and motivates her. It might be the risk and the danger and the notoriety that drives her and compels her to stay----even after being moved from night shift to days, from nursing to clerical duties---yet still staying put, surrounded by the suspicion and chaos.

 

[Kemug]

That famous note of LL's, with its weird thoughts and feelings, and so many contradictions - I would so like to see and hear LL being asked to explain it. Her answers may not be truthful, but something could surely be learnt from it. Is that a possibility? Can she be compelled to? It seems odd if the only person who knows what it all means doesn't have to explain it.

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

That famous note of LL's, with its weird thoughts and feelings, and so many contradictions - I would so like to see and hear LL being asked to explain it. Her answers may not be truthful, but something could surely be learnt from it. Is that a possibility? Can she be compelled to? It seems odd if the only person who knows what it all means doesn't have to explain it.

No, you cannot be compelled to speak or forced to speak. She doesn't have to say a single word in defence or explain anything. Realistically her and her barrister could sit in court and play noughts and crosses and offer no defence at all because she doesn't need to prove herself innocent, they must prove she is guilty.

You can't really make someone speak if they don't want to anyway, it's not like you can move their mouth for them lol.

 

[DianaWW]

The most interesting part of the note for me is that it was found at her home after her FIRST arrest. She had not been accused of murder at the time that note was written. Yes I’m sure she was aware that there were ongoing investigations and that people were talking….but at that point, she had not been officially accused of murdering these babies. MOO.

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

Lucy Letby: Medics could find no reason why baby ‘suddenly collapsed’

MEDICS could find no reason why a baby suddenly collapsed during a night shift at the Countess of Chester Hospital, the trial of nurse Lucy Letby…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

I think this maybe gives an insight into what those 'bitchy' comments may be, seems like nurses who were more senior/experienced weren't happy that LL was in room 1, the more intensive care unit, alone.

 

[Tortoise]

ADMIN NOTE:

This thread is specifically dedicated to discussion of the trial for the accused Lucy Letby. Please discuss this trial without bringing other cases into the discussion. All that does is introduce support for speculation regarding guilt or innocence which is sub judice.

bringing this Admin Note forward from page 1 of this thread.

This thread is specifically dedicated to discussion of the trial for the accused Lucy Letby. Please discuss this trial without bringing other cases into the discussion. All that does is introduce support for speculation regarding guilt or innocence which is sub judice.

 

[mart321]

This is a heplful timeline of events up until LL's arrest on 3rd July 2018. So the hospital asked police to investigate the deaths in May 2017 and she was arrested in July 2018 and the documents were found when police searched her home after her arrest. No idea if that means that police did not speak to her at all up until that point, but presumably she was aware of the police investigation or th epossibility of it, as it was mentioned on her note.

Timeline of baby probe​

2013: Two babies die on Countess of Chester Hospital’s neonatal unit.
2014: A further three babies die at the unit.
JUNE 2015 to JULY 2016: 15 babies die on neonatal unit and six others suffer non-fatal collapses.
FEBRUARY: Senior doctors and nursing staff carry out a “high level” review into ten neonatal deaths at the hospital.
JUNE: Hospital bosses ask the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health to investigate why the number of deaths on its neonatal unit had increased.
JULY: Chiefs announce that gravely-ill babies will be cared for at neighbouring units.
SEPTEMBER: Review team visits hospital and interviews staff.
NOVEMBER: RCPCH publishes report making 24 recommendations.
MAY 2017: Hospital asks Cheshire Police to investigate 15 baby deaths and six non-fatal baby collapses. Operation Hummingbird is launched.
YESTERDAY: Female healthcare worker is arrested on suspicion of murder of eight babies and attempted murder of a further six infants.
Cheshire Police also reveal the scope of the investigation has been widened to 17 baby deaths and 15 non-fatal collapses between March 2015 and July 2016.

Nurse held over 8 baby murders investigated by ANOTHER hospital she worked at

A SECOND hospital is investigating a nurse at the centre of a police probe into the suspected murder of eight babies in Chester. Liverpool Women’s Hospital said today it is assisting detectiv…

www.thesun.co.uk

Great thanks for that. It has also been said that operation hummingbird has been extended until 2024? And now includes a Liverpool hospital...is there a source for this or is that just hearsay?