Found Deceased UK - Sarah Everard, 33, London - Clapham Common area, 3 March 2021 *Arrests* #13

[Fiercelobster]

If the prosecution can’t prove cause/manner of death, what effect does that have on their case? Does not having a conclusive cause of death effect their ability to secure a conviction?

I don't know, but I don't believe (very much JMO!) that the coroner report saying there's no conclusive cause of death at this time means the prosecution can't prove beyond reasonable doubt a cause of death. That's probably a large part of the criminal case.

I would assume the emphasis is more on proving manner of death beyond reasonable doubt. Manner of death is different - I think there's only a handful of manners of death such as natural and homocide. The Four Manners of Death (exploreforensics.co.uk)

Obviously, providing manner of death is far more important to securing a conviction than the specific cause of death but I have no doubt IMO that discovering both will be important to her family and the investigators.

 

[Lizziebo]

Trying to be as clinical and not graphic as possible. Typically it can be picked up via broken bones in the neck, bruising in the obvious areas, broken capillaries in the eyes, certain inflammations in the lungs and other signs I cant recall.

Hello - first-time poster here - long-time lurker etc. And I'm sorry if I've not worked the quotes out yet.

I am so impressed with this forum - everyone has been so respectful of Sarah and every one of the victims I've read about in other posts. It comes through with all of your messages. Thank you.

Re the strangulation hypothesis - this happened in the Lindsey Birbeck case. Where there was no obvious cause of death, there was a broken hyoid bone. I think it was only revealed during trial (but if any sleuthers can remember/correct?). The pathologist's conclusion was trauma to the neck - by knee or other means. But the cause of death was quite ambiguous, in reality. SE was found in different circumstances and it was probably the case that her remains were not in such a contained site.

I am curious to why police are continuing their search. Only partial remains? (I feel awful typing that). Or a potential serial killer? I only say this because my comparison is the Fred & Rosemary West killings discovered in the mid-nineties. Massive police presence and forensics.

I have been following several cases on WS: Sarah Everard; Bernadette Walker; Claudia Lawrence; the Delphi Murders of Libby and Abby. They all have something in common yet are so far away from each other. I hope their families soon get peace. The one thing many take for granted.

 

[Lifeonaline]

PC guarding Sarah Everard murder scene shared 'inappropriate graphic' PC guarding Sarah Everard murder scene 'sent inappropriate WhatsApp messages to colleagues' | Daily Mail Online


The force has now been referred to Independent Office for Police Conduct six times in relation to events surrounding Ms Everard's murder

 

[ClaireNC]

Well spotted. I haven't seen that anywhere else. What does it mean by opening an inquest and adjourning it? Sorry just seen this quote above has been posted already.

"On Monday the Met said a postmortem on Everard’s body was inconclusive as to the cause of death, after the 33-year-old’s remains were found in woodland in Kent. An inquest into her death is expected to be opened and adjourned this week. A serving Met officer has been charged with her murder."

Priti Patel spoke to Met chief before Sarah Everard vigil broken up

Is this the only place that it's been reported that the postmortem was inconclusive? Or was there an official announcement from the Met?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I don’t think people are trying to give excuses for WC as it may seem. More so that it is human nature to try to understand the unthinkable. Do I think we can blame his wife or him having a step-mother? No! The only person who can be blamed for a crime would be the alleged perpetrator. I do think that we cannot discount the impact of someone’s parent dying though, especially when it was so recent (not even 6 months yet). And especially not when the alleged had what appears to have been a close relationship to his father and worked for him for many years. His own words in the below interview also hint at the importance of this figure in his life.

End of road as garage doors close for last time

“His son Wayne Couzens, 42, who worked there for 20 years, said: “He would have really loved one of us to take over but he totally understands.


"Things have to come to an end. I am devastated, I was there for 20 years myself. "We’ve grown up with my dad always being there. It’s a huge part of our lives. An family institution.”

If the loss of the family business devastated him then what did the loss of the father that’s “always been there” do? JMO/all MOO

I get what you're saying but it doesn't make sense. People lose parents every single day and manage not to harm another living soul.
I would be on board with this theory if we discover he's had previous deviant behaviour, it lay dormant for several years or he used the internet/dark web to indulge his fantasies and his dad's death was the trigger to make fantasy, real; but to go from perfect law abiding citizen, dad dies and he resorts to kidnapping and murder? I don't buy it.

 

[Parker Knoll]

I get what you're saying but it doesn't make sense. People lose parents every single day and manage not to harm another living soul.
I would be on aboard with this theory if we discover he's had previous deviant behaviour, it lay dormant for several years or he used the internet/dark web to indulge his fantasies and his dad's death was the trigger to make fantasy, real; but to go from perfect law abiding citizen, dad dies and he resorts to kidnapping and murder? I don't buy it.

No me neither.

 

[wens67]

It does make me wonder whether he has had some sort of breakdown with psychosis. Sounds devastated about the garage. Maybe he wanted to keep it running for his dad and wife didnt want to because of having children and all the financial worry that comes with running a business.

Maybe he has held some sort of resentment against her and when his dad has died has had a breakdown of some description. Psychosis can completely change people, maybe that's why he has had time off work etc.

Just trying to get into the head of someone and figure out why someone who on the face of it is successful and has a lovely family life has turned into a murderer, it's like some sort of self destruction almost.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Hello - first-time poster here - long-time lurker etc. And I'm sorry if I've not worked the quotes out yet.

I am so impressed with this forum - everyone has been so respectful of Sarah and every one of the victims I've read about in other posts. It comes through with all of your messages. Thank you.

Re the strangulation hypothesis - this happened in the Lindsey Birbeck case. Where there was no obvious cause of death, there was a broken hyoid bone. I think it was only revealed during trial (but if any sleuthers can remember/correct?). The pathologist's conclusion was trauma to the neck - by knee or other means. But the cause of death was quite ambiguous, in reality. SE was found in different circumstances and it was probably the case that her remains were not in such a contained site.

I am curious to why police are continuing their search. Only partial remains? (I feel awful typing that). Or a potential serial killer? I only say this because my comparison is the Fred & Rosemary West killings discovered in the mid-nineties. Massive police presence and forensics.

I have been following several cases on WS: Sarah Everard; Bernadette Walker; Claudia Lawrence; the Delphi Murders of Libby and Abby. They all have something in common yet are so far away from each other. I hope their families soon get peace. The one thing many take for granted.

Welcome to Websleuths. Welcome to all new members. Normally, each of you would receive a warm thank you for joining. This case is so unusual as it has swiftly captured the world’s attention. We as a community with like minded interests value our members as participating individuals who contribute to discussions. Thank you all.

 

[Alethea]

I get what you're saying but it doesn't make sense. People lose parents every single day and manage not to harm another living soul.
I would be on aboard with this theory if we discover he's had previous deviant behaviour, it lay dormant for several years or he used the internet/dark web to indulge his fantasies and his dad's death was the trigger to make fantasy, real; but to go from perfect law abiding citizen, dad dies and he resorts to kidnapping and murder? I don't buy it.

I think what people are saying is that while most people can go through trauma and be ok, for some people with underlying mental illness a trauma like loss of a loved one can serve as what’s known as a “precipitating event” to a break. Someone may have been struggling to control homicidal or suicidal impulses before and could do it when they had a certain structure in their life, but something traumatic happens and they can no longer control it. Or they decide to stop trying to control it.

This is not an excuse or a defense for murder. It’s not mitigating the horror of what the accused may have done. But it’s a very real and studied phenomenon. It’s also relevant in recovering addicts and alcoholics - they are advised to seek extra care and support because a traumatic event can upend hard-fought for sobriety in a way unaffected people don’t seem to understand.

So it certainly doesn’t mean everyone who loses a parent becomes a criminal. We just don’t know about the defendant’s personal and psychological history. The fact that he’s a cop doesn’t really matter. There’s a whole world of “sub-clinical” people who have mental illness or personality disorders who never seek help so they are never flagged as having an issue. There are a lot of violent people who secretly beat their wife and kids and no one knows. So I don’t think we can say the defendant does or doesn’t have a history or propensity or anything at this point.

 

[MancGuy Uk]

As a follow up to my post at the end of previous thread.

I am very local to this case so any questions on the area or that night. Happy to help. As per other posts. SE would 99.9% have been on the left hand side of the road.

Thanks for the local knowledge of the area did you say on your other post your girlfriend was out that evening ?

 

[Gibbo214]

It does make me wonder whether he has had some sort of breakdown with psychosis. Sounds devastated about the garage. Maybe he wanted to keep it running for his dad and wife didnt want to because of having children and all the financial worry that comes with running a business.

Maybe he has held some sort of resentment against her and when his dad has died has had a breakdown of some description. Psychosis can completely change people, maybe that's why he has had time off work etc.

Just trying to get into the head of someone and figure out why someone who on the face of it is successful and has a lovely family life has turned into a murderer, it's like some sort of self destruction almost.

These posts disturb me. He is the alleged killer, not his wife. It was his behaviour.

 

[Stella123]

Is this the only place that it's been reported that the postmortem was inconclusive? Or was there an official announcement from the Met?

I haven't seen it anywhere else - seems to have come out during discussions with Government by that article. Maybe mentioned inadvertently as lots of topics in the article.

 

[smucklecrumble]

I get what you're saying but it doesn't make sense. People lose parents every single day and manage not to harm another living soul.
I would be on aboard with this theory if we discover he's had previous deviant behaviour, it lay dormant for several years or he used the internet/dark web to indulge his fantasies and his dad's death was the trigger to make fantasy, real, but to go from perfect law abiding citizen, dad dies and he resorts to kidnapping and murder? I don't buy it.

I see what you are saying. I also don’t believe he was a perfect law abiding citizen. It wouldn’t surprise me to learn of other IE incidents during other times in his life.

According to psychology today - “The onset of this condition typically occurs sometime in late adolescence or early adulthood. ” WC is 48 so I don’t believe he began flashing at his age as he is suspected of doing.

Source: Exhibitionism

I think we will see a history emerge as we did in the Libby Squire case. Was there other incidents that weren’t reported? Who knows. It’s become apparent from recent cases that IE isn’t taken as seriously as it should be.

From eighteen years as a police officer, I know indecent exposure

edit to add: nothing about this case makes sense to me tbh. Not the IE or the car rental or the work emails. I’m fully stumped.

 

[Stella123]

Hello - first-time poster here - long-time lurker etc. And I'm sorry if I've not worked the quotes out yet.

I am so impressed with this forum - everyone has been so respectful of Sarah and every one of the victims I've read about in other posts. It comes through with all of your messages. Thank you.

Re the strangulation hypothesis - this happened in the Lindsey Birbeck case. Where there was no obvious cause of death, there was a broken hyoid bone. I think it was only revealed during trial (but if any sleuthers can remember/correct?). The pathologist's conclusion was trauma to the neck - by knee or other means. But the cause of death was quite ambiguous, in reality. SE was found in different circumstances and it was probably the case that her remains were not in such a contained site.

I am curious to why police are continuing their search. Only partial remains? (I feel awful typing that). Or a potential serial killer? I only say this because my comparison is the Fred & Rosemary West killings discovered in the mid-nineties. Massive police presence and forensics.

I have been following several cases on WS: Sarah Everard; Bernadette Walker; Claudia Lawrence; the Delphi Murders of Libby and Abby. They all have something in common yet are so far away from each other. I hope their families soon get peace. The one thing many take for granted.

We won't know for some time probably but a few reasons for the extensive operation possibly.

1) They need more evidence and still searching for items - phone, murder weapon, clothing for dna etc.
2) As well as that the case has had so much interest, and with it being a Met Officer as alleged murderer, they are pulling the stops out.
3) Yes a few people (me included)thinking they may be looking for other bodies as well. Although I am not so sure now - I think they are mainly pulling out the stops to pin down this case and secure a result.

All MOO,JMO, supposition.

 

[smucklecrumble]

I think what people are saying is that while most people can go through trauma and be ok, for some people with underlying mental illness a trauma like loss of a loved one can serve as what’s known as a “precipitating event” to a break. Someone may have been struggling to control homicidal or suicidal impulses before and could do it when they had a certain structure in their life, but something traumatic happens and they can no longer control it. Or they decide to stop trying to control it.

This is not an excuse or a defense for murder. It’s not mitigating the horror of what the accused may have done. But it’s a very real and studied phenomenon. It’s also relevant in recovering addicts and alcoholics - they are advised to seek extra care and support because a traumatic event can upend hard-fought for sobriety in a way unaffected people don’t seem to understand.

So it certainly doesn’t mean everyone who loses a parent becomes a criminal. We just don’t know about the defendant’s personal and psychological history. The fact that he’s a cop doesn’t really matter. There’s a whole world of “sub-clinical” people who have mental illness or personality disorders who never seek help so they are never flagged as having an issue. There are a lot of violent people who secretly beat their wife and kids and no one knows. So I don’t think we can say the defendant does or doesn’t have a history or propensity or anything at this point.

Thank you. I didn’t snip because you made my point far more eloquently than I was able to.

 

[MsBetsy]

I get what you're saying but it doesn't make sense. People lose parents every single day and manage not to harm another living soul.
I would be on board with this theory if we discover he's had previous deviant behaviour, it lay dormant for several years or he used the internet/dark web to indulge his fantasies and his dad's death was the trigger to make fantasy, real; but to go from perfect law abiding citizen, dad dies and he resorts to kidnapping and murder? I don't buy it.

I don't think we know for sure that he was a perfect law abiding citizen.

 

[MancGuy Uk]

It does make me wonder whether he has had some sort of breakdown with psychosis. Sounds devastated about the garage. Maybe he wanted to keep it running for his dad and wife didnt want to because of having children and all the financial worry that comes with running a business.

Maybe he has held some sort of resentment against her and when his dad has died has had a breakdown of some description. Psychosis can completely change people, maybe that's why he has had time off work etc.

Just trying to get into the head of someone and figure out why someone who on the face of it is successful and has a lovely family life has turned into a murderer, it's like some sort of self destruction almost.

I see what you mean and it's very hard to understand millions of people have had break downs in theirs lives and lose parents, children, siblings etc but to go and commit a horrible crime like this I can never understand no matter how much your life as spun out of control the accused had no reason what so ever to hurt or harm S E she did nothing to this accused suspect yet her life has been taken

 

[Stella123]

Someone was asking earlier about the paintballing site. Reposting this link that gives the history of it and more info - it is next to the wooded area where the body was found.

If it has been a hotspot for fly tipping recently, the accused may have thought a body wrapped in a builder's bag may not be easily found amongst a load of fly tipping.

With all the extra searching in that area now, I am also wondering if they are possibly looking for more bodies. As well as items for evidence.

"A resident who lives nearby says the secluded plot has become a fly-tipping hotspot, particularly during lockdown."

The story of the abandoned leisure complex at centre of Sarah murder case

 

[ApparentlyInDenial]

In case nobody has said it yet, the inconclusive post-mortem means there will be a full inquest. A separate judicial process to determine SE’s death will now likely commence.

 

[Lizziebo]

It does make me wonder whether he has had some sort of breakdown with psychosis. Sounds devastated about the garage. Maybe he wanted to keep it running for his dad and wife didn't want to because of having children and all the financial worry that comes with running a business.

Maybe he has held some sort of resentment against her and when his dad has died has had a breakdown of some description. Psychosis can completely change people, maybe that's why he has had time off work etc.

Just trying to get into the head of someone and figure out why someone who on the face of it is successful and has a lovely family life has turned into a murderer, it's like some sort of self destruction almost.

This above is what I think, too. And how could a perpetrator be so blase? It's not for us to answer that. I have seen this so may times in these cases on WS where speculation is rife and the only answers are when it happens in trial (even though hypothesis on here has been correct - and there are so many rabbit holes visited that LE must've gone down too). I don't know if there's any use in us speculating about cars, images on SC, when the police have so much more. The amount of information in this public forum should be kept to the minimum now he's been charged - his defence lawyers could be looking at this and handing him a mis-trial. I'm not saying I don't want to hear any information, but anything put out there now would compromise a trial.