GUILTY Uk - Sophie Lionnet, 21, Body Found Burned, Wandsworth, London, 20 Sep 2017 *arrests*

[michelle230]

LB thanks for updates.
Didn`t go to court today as too much catching up to do at home!
Just some thoughts/musings.
SK and OM were days away from eviction from their landlord. They owed £10,000 in rent - despite her being in receipt of Housing Benefit. This build up of arrears had clearly been growing up over a long time. I wonder if this factor fuelled their rage and anger. After all, she had no money; he was jobless. Where would they go with the two children? To a homeless hostel?
They had a two bed flat. The children shared a room and SK had the other one, presumably sharing with OM when he was around. Where on earth did Sophie sleep?
I was slightly amused to see them described in the press as living in a socialite world (or words to that effect), living the good life! Previously she had been evicted from a former flat which she tried to illegally break back into upon her return from France. I would make an educated guess that utility bills were unpaid.
On a very different track, having observed a fair few defendants in the dock now, my feelings regarding OM are these (please don`t confuse an attempt to understand the "whys" as in any way meaning forgiveness..)
My take is that OM is a weak, easily led man who was "bewitched" and at the time afraid/controlled by SK.
I think there is quite a bit of truth in his statement. Unlike other defendants I have observed, I do not think he is in denial as to his crimes. I think he fully understands his culpability and I suspect he is himself in deep shock as to how and why he bowed to her madness (in too deep, too late?) and waded deeper and deeper into the mire. Was his fate sealed the day he met up again, after many years, with SK?
I think what I`m trying to say is that SK is wicked and it is almost inevitable that she would end up where she is now - with or without OM.
However if OM had not met SK, he may have gone through life in an unremarkable, albeit unsuccessful, way, but never ended up in the dock as a murderer.
My guess is that he will get a lighter sentence than her.

 

[Tortoise]

Michelle I agree with you about OM. Have you ever heard of the drama triangle? Persecutor, Rescuer and Victim? I think he was trying to rescue SK from her demons, and in doing so mimicked her persecution of Sophie. I think he felt if he did that he would gain SK's love, but he seems to have been blind to SK's infatuation with MW. It took three extreme personality types for it to have ended like this.

 

[Legally Bland]

Re. Sophie's sleeping arrangements.

I'm not sure exactly what this means. I can only imagine Sophie sleeping on an office/dining char slumped over a desk, in the kitchen/living room/hallway?

Ms Lionnet was forced to live and sleep at a desk in the Wimbledon Park Road flat, forbidden from going outside, until she 'confessed' her collaborations with Walton, the court heard.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5581429/Man-accused-murdering-French-nanny-blames-lover.html#ixzz5Bv

 

[michelle230]

Michelle I agree with you about OM. Have you ever heard of the drama triangle? Persecutor, Rescuer and Victim? I think he was trying to rescue SK from her demons, and in doing so mimicked her persecution of Sophie. I think he felt if he did that he would gain SK's love, but he seems to have been blind to SK's infatuation with MW. It took three extreme personality types for it to have ended like this.

Hi Tortoise - yes know about the drama triangle.
I think it`s understandable when objective as outsiders are, to ask "Why didn`t he? Why didn`t she.." etc However the outsider is not in that situation - think frog boiling, different background, character, financial circumstances etc etc. There are as many helpless victims of abuse and circumstances as there are abusers.

I think the "whys" apply to him almost as much as to Sophie herself. And I also find I am angry with the neighbour who witnessed the abuse. Why didn`t she go to the police/buy her a plane ticket to France???
And yet..I think generally we take the easy way out. Not get ourselves embroiled.
In view of that I am in total awe of the neighbour who reported the foul smell and called the police/fire brigade. How many of us would have done that? I love her for doing that. Really!

But it goes round and round in my head...what could Sophie have done differently? If I`d met her, would I have had the skills to get her to open up to me? If she had (almost impossible) would * I * have believed such a bizarre story?

 

[michelle230]

Re. Sophie's sleeping arrangements.

I'm not sure exactly what this means. I can only imagine Sophie sleeping on an office/dining char slumped over a desk, in the kitchen/living room/hallway?

That`s true LB - they made her sit at a desk and write copious amounts of "confessions" during her last two weeks. These were read out yesterday morning - for hours. I think she was locked in the house at that point and when the real physical assaults took place. As I say - maybe the imminent eviction placed a part on them upping the abuse.

But in the earlier days - where on earth did the poor girl sleep?

 

[michelle230]

"It took three extreme personality types for it to have ended like this".

Tortoise - that line just sunk in! Thank you.
Yes - you are so right.

 

[michelle230]

Very interesting biography of the presiding Judge - Judge Nicholas Hilliard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Hilliard_(judge)

He is the Recorder of London, the senior judge at the Old Bailey.[

 

[Tiny]

Michelle thank you so so much for the updates. They have been really good.
I have been following the case, but haven’t been on here for a few days. The more I read about SK, the more angrier I get. Sophie was young and innocent with her whole life ahead of her. I do agree with the view she stayed for the boys. Perhaps if she saw SK coaching them and manipulating them, she thought she might be able to look after them or give them some semblance of a childhood.
I think Sophie might have feared the authorities and she was brainwashed into thinking she would be in trouble. If she wasn’t eating, not having somewhere proper to sleep that would affect her mentally. I am so disgusted by everything.
I also think it’s ridiculous in a case like this that SK has medical support. That may sound harsh but she needs to listen to what she and her boyfriend put poor Sophie through.

 

[michelle230]

Going to write two posts as lots to report back!
We were informed this morning that the case would not start until 12.45 today. None of the officials knew why! So - waste of a morning.
I only started going to court last week so missed a lot at the start and was confused about certain timelines.
I couldn`t work out who the children belonged to - something seemed amiss - and my hunch was correct. It`s the * younger child *, not the older one who belongs to MW. He has never met his son. He didn`t even know SK was pregnant and had given birth til the event had actually taken place.
I spoke to a couple of other people who had attended earlier in the case. I will post what they told me but bear in mind, it is third hand!
The witness neighbour was apparently not a brilliant witness - foreign - difficult to understand.
A school mother gave evidence. She said that K (older child) was extremely badly behaved (hardly surprising), and the other mothers did not want their children to mix with him. Apparently he had a party - invited the class - but only two children showed up. She also said that K treated Sophie badly in the way he spoke and behaved towards her.
K gave evidence via a video - I`m unsure if there were two lots of evidence - one pre-recorded and one live one - I think there was just one. At any rate, understandably he did not appear in person in the court room. He was asked why his mother did not Sophie and he reeled off three reasons 1. Her housework wasn`t good. 2. She took him to "dangerous" parks and boyfriends` houses 3. Money went missing (implying theft clearly). It seemed like he reeled off these answers and they had been rehearsed (the opinion of the person telling me).
These are just some snippets. Will write another post about this afternoon.
Macabre and chilling. I have never heard anything like I heard today. I think we were all listening in numbed disbelief.

 

[michelle230]

Going to write two posts as lots to report back!
We were informed this morning that the case would not start until 12.45 today. None of the officials knew why! So - waste of a morning.
I only started going to court last week so missed a lot at the start and was confused about certain timelines.
I couldn`t work out who the children belonged to - something seemed amiss - and my hunch was correct. It`s the * younger child *, not the older one who belongs to MW. He has never met his son. He didn`t even know SK was pregnant and had given birth til the event had actually taken place.
I spoke to a couple of other people who had attended earlier in the case. I will post what they told me but bear in mind, it is third hand!
The witness neighbour was apparently not a brilliant witness - foreign - difficult to understand.
A school mother gave evidence. She said that K (older child) was extremely badly behaved (hardly surprising), and the other mothers did not want their children to mix with him. Apparently he had a party - invited the class - but only two children showed up. She also said that K treated Sophie badly in the way he spoke and behaved towards her.
K gave evidence via a video - I`m unsure if there were two lots of evidence - one pre-recorded and one live one - I think there was just one. At any rate, understandably he did not appear in person in the court room. He was asked why his mother did not Sophie and he reeled off three reasons 1. Her housework wasn`t good. 2. She took him to "dangerous" parks and boyfriends` houses 3. Money went missing (implying theft clearly). It seemed like he reeled off these answers and they had been rehearsed (the opinion of the person telling me).
These are just some snippets. Will write another post about this afternoon.
Macabre and chilling. I have never heard anything like I heard today. I think we were all listening in numbed disbelief.

Oh - and apparently the first child K was the result of a rape/sexual abuse.
And remember I previously posted that she had been sexually abused as a child by her uncle - her mother`s brother. Apparently...

 

[Tortoise]

Roughly how old is K? Is he the one they found in Homebase after being put in the boot of the car?

 

[michelle230]

Roughly how old is K? Is he the one they found in Homebase after being put in the boot of the car?

Think he is about 8-9 years old.
Yes - except he wasn`t put in any boot of any car (said it was MW that did it)

 

[michelle230]

I`m not sure I can do justice to the haunting and horrific afternoon we were witness to but I will try my best.
I wasn`t at court on Friday but I believe the whole day was spent listening to more recordings of Sophie`s torturous interrogations.
And again today from 12.45, and still going on when I left at 4.10 pm. Minus one 15 minute break.
There were six taped recordings in total – all taking place on 18th September.
The first one was from 11.30 – 12.30.
The next one was at 2.30.
Then there were three short ones lasting roughly 20 minutes each.
The final one was at 6.11 pm and lasted just over 50 minutes.
It`s difficult to describe them – the madness – the rampant madness of them.
The voices of all three – SK, OM and Sophie were chilling to hear. SK`s voice was chillingly quiet, hypnotic, macabre and relentless. Dangerously quiet and relentless. OM spoke calmly, spoke much less but was equally as relentless. Sophie showed such courage as she tried to guess what she was meant to say and what it was that they wanted to hear. She spoke very quietly, inaudibly at times, cried at times but tried to match her responses as best as she could to satisfy her torturers. I really do not know how she was still able to even speak. Frightened, locked in for days, not fed, not allowed to sleep, having to write and write and write, hunched over a desk all night.
The interrogation was hours of repetition. The same – over and over, although the charges got more and more extreme. Sophie let MW (and other men) in to their home. Their bedroom. Sophie drugged the family. How many times did she drug them? How did she drug them? Did she put the pills into water? Into juice? How many times in the water? How many times in the juice? How many pills did she have left? Go and get them. Get them now! How many? Where are they? Sophie..Sophie..Of course you`ve got them. Of course you know where they are.
You watched while MW played with me (SK). Where did he touch me? And where else? And did he undress me? And you watched him while he abused the children. How did they abuse K? And G? (the younger child). They abused G too, didn`t they? What exactly did they do? How many times? And then what happened? You watched while MW drugged the children. Put syringes in their arms. Then what did they do? What did you do? Then what? When what? And heroin. They gave you heroin. You took heroin. I`m trying to help you. Before the police come. How many times did you let them in? When? Over how many months? What days? How many men? Describe them..
Every time Sophie gave a reply, SK went Uh hu..good.. and then what happened...go on..go on..tell me.. tell me everything..I`m listening..then what..
Sorry – it`s really hard to describe.
Any thoughts I had of OM being slightly less culpable…they are out of the window.
He was as mad/insane/relentless/threatening as she was.
But it`s more than that. Worse.
Because what I noticed throughout these hours, is that he was obsessed with himself. This was * not * about protecting SK, let alone caring about what these poor children had apparently been subjected to. Sexual abuse. Syringes in their arms to keep them asleep whilst they were being abused.
Nothing. Nothing like that at all.
His interrogation was all about * him *.
Did they come when * I * was here? How often when I was here? Did they drug me? They did – didn`t they? How many times did they drug me? How often was it just MW? How many times did the other men come too when I was here? How many men came when I was here? Give me the exact days. You can`t remember? Of course you can. Think. Think. It`s good to talk. Get it all out Sophie. We need to know. We need you to say it all.
Sorry – can`t really say any more. I think you get the picture of how it was.

 

[Alice253]

Two demons straight out of hell......

Sent from my Z798BL using Tapatalk

 

[Legally Bland]

Thanks for sharing, Michelle.

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks again for the updates.

I hope she was made to sit in her seat today. Do they interact with each other?

It must be so difficult to listen to. I doubt there is visual on the recordings too, is there? How did they think they could even use those tapes as any kind of evidence, unless they were going to edit themselves out maybe.

I do think the sentencing is going to be very harsh, holding Sophie captive and torturing her must be aggravated murder, whole life tariffs maybe?

 

[michelle230]

Thanks again for the updates.

I hope she was made to sit in her seat today. Do they interact with each other?

It must be so difficult to listen to. I doubt there is visual on the recordings too, is there? How did they think they could even use those tapes as any kind of evidence, unless they were going to edit themselves out maybe.

I do think the sentencing is going to be very harsh, holding Sophie captive and torturing her must be aggravated murder, whole life tariffs maybe?

No they are kept apart. Remember they are blaming each other. Sworn enemies.
She sits at one end of the dock with her interpreter, medical assistance and appropriate adult.
He sits at the other end. There are three court wardens on guard in the dock with them!
The Judge explained last week (I am worried they will get off on a manslaughter charge), but stupid the Judge ain`t! He explained to the jury that manslaughter is when death was not intentional. However when a person is treated in such a way - harmed in such a way - that there is a good chance of the harm leading to death - then that is classified as murder. Words to that effect anyway.
Hopefully he was setting the scene...
I also believe the sentence will be harsh but like Jennie Gray, I think this one will also play the system to the nth degree.
Anyway by the time she gets out, with any luck, her looks will have gone so she won`t have that to trade on any longer. Grey haired and wrinkled, I hope!

 

[michelle230]

Court is not on for the remainder of this week. Think the Judge is needed elswhere. So that`s it until Monday.
Apparently she has a character witness giving a (video?) statement from abroad.

 

[Elainera]

Thank you Michelle for this harrowing account. It must have been tough to listen to it.

These two seem to be paranoid/delusional and/or on drugs. I wonder whether they drugged Sophie? Made her dependent?

 

[michelle230]

For anyone who is interested this is why the murder trial has been postponed until Monday - this is where Judhe Hilliard is:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43699873