UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #3

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Have we mentioned this before but 'kipper' in old slang means 'a young adult who cannot afford to move away from home' apparently.

Would SJL know that? Is it maybe a joke in estate agency? Have we discussed this before?

Was SJL going to meet someone fairly young, a close friend maybe, who was frustrated at still living at home with their parents and looking for advice to buy a first home - in which case if related to an actual property would surely need to be a studio / one or two bed maximum?

Could that be the person who was leaning on her?


Kids In Parents Pockets Eroding Retirement Savings (KIPPERS).

I really don't think so. I doubt if this was an acronym in 1986....most young adults could generally afford to move out.

 
I wonder why Sturgis office didn't have a clock? London estate agents even used to have clocks in several time zones - NYC / HK etc and yet this one didn't even have a single clock, how odd?
It does seem strange, but most people wore watches in 1986
 
IMO they look like MG to me and since he went to 37 SR then it seems quite obviously an error IMO for anyone to circulate these pics and say they're the perpetrator.

They both look like clean shaven chaps with dark hair....must be ident then!

Do we have to ignore the obvious that MG spoke directly to HR later in the afternoon?

1. Is HR really going to describe MG to MG?

2. If MG appeared on the timeline in Shorrolds Road at the same time that HR described seeing said smartly dressed male then the police would have gone....ah ha......as they picked up their magnifying glass!

I have no idea why these obvious facts are ignored and this 'MG is Kipper's sketch' idea remains.

I am genuinely starting to worry!
 
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I wonder why Sturgis office didn't have a clock? London estate agents even used to have clocks in several time zones - NYC / HK etc and yet this one didn't even have a single clock, how odd?

It stops clock watching which detracts from productivity......it was the money, money, money mid 80's after all.
 
Yeah I think this theory can be put to bed. I don't think it holds water. The police knew what MG looked like as they literally met him. For this to be true they have to be incapable of investigating whether the sun came up that morning.
They did not give themselves time to do so, though, and then they were committed to their narrative.

Getting into Shorrolds, finding the car, searching Stevenage, and talking to AL kept them busy till 0330 next morning. By mid morning they've got HR with the artist and they've decided to go for the 2pm press conference at which that sketch was brandished.

They arrested 30+ people that day for the cement factory fraud, so they simply did not have time to take statements and cross compare them while simultaneously preparing for the press conference at which they told the TV cameras that SJL went to 37SR and was seen there.

If they'd held that conference 2 days later I'd be less sceptical, but they did what they did and then pronounced the results of the appeal for further sightings 'disappointing'. Well, it would be if you're appealing for sightings of something that didn't happen. Given HR's demonstrable flakiness and tendency to tell you what you wanted to hear, this should and possibly was enough to suggest that Mr Kipper was MG, but how popular would you be if, a few days after that press event, you said Er actually there may never have been any visit or any Mr Kipper? MB still maintains that all we know is SJL left the office at about 1240 and her car was seen at 10pm. It doesn't sound like he buys Mr Kipper either.

I don't think it's safe to eliminate possibilities on the basis of what the police would normally have done, if the timing suggests they left themselves no time to do so.
 
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WestLondoner posted this in a earlier thread :D



HR's statement
HR lived at 35 Shorrolds, next door to the house where SJL wrote in an appointment. He was 58 in 7/1986. He said - per the police press conference - that "he saw a fair-haired lady and this man [the pencil sketch of 'Mr Kipper'] leaving the property at about ten past one. And that is the last time she has been seen.’



So this also ties in with her hair colour change that weekend. I just can not fathom this being anybody but her and a client.
In the CW reconstruction all the female Sturgis staff have blonde streaks.
 
I don't agree here. Mark Gurden has curly hair which is not combed back. It is allowed to fall naturally. By contrast, the photofit shows a head of carefully coiffed hair, sleeked back and with not a single strand resting on the forehead.
Which is fair enough, but it shows I think that reasonable people can disagree, which in turn makes the Mr Kipper sketch of very doubtful value - especially when HR disagreed with it himself. His second description of Mr Kipper - the diamond dealer - does not look remotely like the first (the pencil sketch).
 
There is zero reason to place MG at Shorrolds at 1.15pm unless he is now a suspect and he wasn’t off having lunch with other colleagues.


The time line doesn’t fit at all!!


MOO
Which nobody does. He was there about 3 and HR later misremembered this as earlier. If he had been prompted 'was that about 1?' he would certainly have agreed.
 
They did not give themselves time to do so, though, and then they were committed to their narrative.

Getting into Shorrolds, finding the car, searching Stevenage, and talking to AL kept them busy till 0330 next morning. By mid morning they've got HR with the artist and they've decided to go for the 2pm press conference at which that sketch was brandished.

They arrested 30+ people that day for the cement factory fraud, so they simply did not have time to take statements and cross compare them while simultaneously preparing for the press conference at which they told the TV cameras that SJL went to 37SR and was seen there.

If they'd held that conference 2 days later I'd be less sceptical, but they did what they did and then pronounced the results of the appeal for further sightings 'disappointing'. Well, it would be if you're appealing for sightings of something that didn't happen. Given HR's demonstrable flakiness and tendency to tell you what you wanted to hear, this should and possibly was enough to suggest that Mr Kipper was MG, but how popular would you be if, a few days after that press event, you said Er actually there may never have been any visit or any Mr Kipper? MB still maintains that all we know is SJL left the office at about 1240 and her car was seen at 10pm. It doesn't sound like he buys Mr Kipper either.

I don't think it's safe to eliminate possibilities on the basis of what the police would normally have done, if the timing suggests they left themselves no time to do so.


This case has had multiple reviews it makes no sense nobody would of spotted such a glaringly obvious oversight if true.

MOO
 
Which is fair enough, but it shows I think that reasonable people can disagree, which in turn makes the Mr Kipper sketch of very doubtful value - especially when HR disagreed with it himself. His second description of Mr Kipper - the diamond dealer - does not look remotely like the first (the pencil sketch).

THe diamond dealer thing is very odd, I want to read news reports from the time to see how it was all reported. There is a photo of the diamond dealer on a news image sight (getty maybe) if you google his name.
 
This case has had multiple reviews it makes no sense nobody would of spotted such a glaringly obvious oversight if true.

MOO
Maybe, but equally, who would have thought SJL's car - the only known crime scene - would have been taxed and driven around for four more years? Or that nobody would check in 1986 for recently released sex offenders and then in 2000 investigate only one such? Or that the list of possible suspects would be people who were in Fulham that day, ignoring BW's sighting of SJL heading out of Fulham? Some very odd things have happened and failed to happen in this investigation.
 
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THe diamond dealer thing is very odd, I want to read news reports from the time to see how it was all reported. There is a photo of the diamond dealer on a news image sight (getty maybe) if you google his name.
ND the eye witness at 37 Shorrolds road also had a background in the jewellery trade, He was an unemployed Jeweller at the time.
His discription of the man is the one police used for the 2nd artist impression.

We have no record of HR seeing either Devere or Doyle. There may be a perfectly good reason for this.
I do have a question mark over both of them until I can find out more.
Did either of them know HR
MOO
 
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Maybe, but equally, who would have thought SJL's car - the only known crime scene - would have been taxed and driven around for four more years? Or that nobody would check in 1986 for recently released sex offenders and then in 2000 investigate only one such? Or that the list of possible suspects would be people who were in Fulham that day, ignoring BW's sighting of SJL heading out of Fulham? Some very odd things have happened and failed to happen in this investigation.


Some good points - I still think that BW saw her that afternoon.


My theory’s change like the wind unfortunately and especially when I see some of the wonderful posts put forward on here.



I can’t rule out her wanting to move up in the world and putting her house on the market and champagne man was somehow part of that. We know she was due to get a £3000 payment from somewhere.
 
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They did not give themselves time to do so, though, and then they were committed to their narrative.

Getting into Shorrolds, finding the car, searching Stevenage, and talking to AL kept them busy till 0330 next morning. By mid morning they've got HR with the artist and they've decided to go for the 2pm press conference at which that sketch was brandished.

They arrested 30+ people that day for the cement factory fraud, so they simply did not have time to take statements and cross compare them while simultaneously preparing for the press conference at which they told the TV cameras that SJL went to 37SR and was seen there.

If they'd held that conference 2 days later I'd be less sceptical, but they did what they did and then pronounced the results of the appeal for further sightings 'disappointing'. Well, it would be if you're appealing for sightings of something that didn't happen. Given HR's demonstrable flakiness and tendency to tell you what you wanted to hear, this should and possibly was enough to suggest that Mr Kipper was MG, but how popular would you be if, a few days after that press event, you said Er actually there may never have been any visit or any Mr Kipper? MB still maintains that all we know is SJL left the office at about 1240 and her car was seen at 10pm. It doesn't sound like he buys Mr Kipper either.

I don't think it's safe to eliminate possibilities on the basis of what the police would normally have done, if the timing suggests they left themselves no time to do so.

There is a issue with the way you consistently misquote the circumstances and place unwarranted negative bias on what has been reported.

Report the facts as they are, like them or not, instead of rebutting them without any supporting evidence.

The escalation of such a missing person enquiry into a major investigation is a well established and effective process.

1. There were more than enough CID and uniform officers to deal with the initial missing person report (uniform/DI Johnstone), house searches (37 SR and SJL's flat - CID), statements from HR and MG (CID), street search (uniform) and securing the vehicle until the following morning (uniform), elimination interview of AL (CID - early AM 29th July)

2. DI Johnstone and DS Barley were involved in the cement factory early morning raid on Wednesday 30th, the day AFTER the press conference. They were back in the office a few hours later. D/Supt Carter was still SIO, during this time. AMIP detectives don't need their hands holding......they are exceptionally experienced. (AS (p.36-7)

3. D/Supt Carter was the next SIO on the rota from AMIP (Area Major Investigation Pool). He was in the office at 06:00 the following morning. Due to the circumstances he escalated the enquiry, internally, to a murder investigation. Time was of the essence to find SJL's body to provide the best opportunity to solve the crime. Hence the need for a press conference without delay. The police needed witness and information asap to identify additional lines of enquiry, not wait for two days twiddling their thumbs. (AS p.20, 22, 29-31)

4. HR gave a first description to MG, when he went looking for SJL. There is no reason for this not to be an accurate and reliable account of what he saw (AS p.8)

5. We know that HR spoke to MG directly. HR did not describe MG to MG, that is absurd! (AS p.8)

6. MG is just repeating what DS Barley said about the undisputed facts, that SJL left the officer at approx 12:30 and that her car was found in Stevenage Road at 22:01. That is just fact being quoted....nothing more, nothing less.

7. Do you have the experience of major investigation to make a judgement on what can or can't be achieved in a certain time period?

8. Uniform officers and the Duty Inspector will have picked up the initial missing person report and liaised with the on-call CID, who contacted DI Johnstone. DI Johnstone provided the initial investigation supervision and tasked the duty CID and uniformed officers via the Duty Inspector (Uniform). What was required was perfectly manageable with the significant resources as the time.

9. Once D/Supt from AMIP had been tasked he came with a team of specialist detectives manage the investigation, in addition to DI Johnstone, DS Barley and other local CID officers.
 
Which nobody does. He was there about 3 and HR later misremembered this as earlier. If he had been prompted 'was that about 1?' he would certainly have agreed.

Which is precisely why closed (leading) questions are not used in witness recall, except to confirm a point after the witness has said it.
 
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