UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #4

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ADMIN NOTES:

Websleuths is pro-LE unless there is something specific supported by MSM that substantiates allegations in a particular case. Generalized LE bashing is off topic and a violation of TOS. Zero tolerance.
In in the Suzy Lamplugh case, we had the Metropolitan Police (22 years ago) stating that a convicted murderer John Cannan is also responsible for her Suzy's murder. John Cannan was never prosecuted, in fact he was never even charged by the Crown in the UK, for her murder.

For a number of years here, we have had a healthy debate on Websleuths on this topic, which I am thankful for as I've learned so much regarding this case.

With respect, are Webslueths now saying that no other possibilities or suspect(s) (other than Cannan), can be discussed here now, as it will be deemed as 'anti-LE'?
 

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Within AS’s book he makes is clear that those working on the case back in 1986 didn’t all agree that SJL went to Shorrolds Road. Some felt that she went to Stevenage Road.
On this basis and taking into account the DV narrative, SJL went to either Shorrolds, Stevenage Road or the PoW.
You need to look at the witness account, when those witnesses came forward and the timeline to decide which option is the most likely.
You can’t just decide who is guilty and then try to make the facts fit, it must be the other way round.
 
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In in the Suzy Lamplugh case, we had the Metropolitan Police (22 years ago) stating that a convicted murderer John Cannan is also responsible for her Suzy's murder.

In November 2002 the Metropolitan Police named JC as their "only suspect". This does NOT equate to a statement declaring that JC is "responsible for Suzy's murder" as you have posted <modsnip>.

The wording is critical as only a court can find someone guilty following due process of law.

However, this also means that police followed ALL reasonable lines of enquiry, the vast majority of which are not in the public domain, and eliminated every possible suspect that came across their radar, EXCEPT JC.

The circumstantial evidence was compelling, but for reasons of witness confidentiality and operational integrity and security it has not been made public. With their being no crime scene or deposition site established, the physical evidence, needed to meet the threshold of the full code test, remains hidden.
 
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A historical member of staff at the PoW has been 'named' by implication....all be it a pseudonym in DV, which some are persuaded by. Although there is zero evidence for it directly, yet the claim is based on the known issues in the timeline, on account of witness timings!

To me that demonstrates inconsistencies in the timeline, which need to be resolved......it doesn't point to a whole new means, opportunity and motive by a third party at an entirely different location.
 
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"Getting behind the story" doesn't mean going entirely left field, no matter how exciting it may seem.

1. Linking crimes is never done unless the links are compelling, as it undermines both investigations.

2. SJL needs to be investigated in isolation. Not even SB's abduction and murder, committed by JC, has been formerly linked.

3. Establishing a time line based on the evidence available, highlighting the inconsistencies and objectively endeavouring to resolve them is the first step.

4. Swimming against the tide is the analogy to use, because the police conducted the investigation and have a significant amount of evidence and information that is not in the public domain. This includes all the resolved lines of enquiry that were conducted.

5. Invariably, the most likely scenario, based on such occurrences and offender behaviour will not be far off the mark.

6. Don't make the age old error or coming up with a theory and selectively choosing or ignoring the evidence/information that does or doesn't fit to support the desired outcome.

7. Create hypotheses of all reasonable possibilities to ensure open thought. Create lines of enquiry to collect all the available evidence. Identify possible suspects. Find evidence that both supports or undermines a suspects involvement.

8. The prime suspect/suspects will become apparent, but it remains essential to continue to find evidence that both implicates OR undermines the evidence against them.
 
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There are two key issues:

1. What happened, where, when, how and why?

2. Who did it?

We can reasonably discuss the first as we have hypotheses, a timeline and witness evidence.

The second one is moot, because we do not have access to the possible suspects on the police radar and their lines of enquiry. If the police said that JC is the "only suspect", then every other potential suspect they came across their radar was eliminated.

The police accept that they don't know exactly what happened, where, when, how and why? If they did we would have a crime scene, a deposition site.....and more than likely a conviction!
 
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Ok lets run with JC the suspect, SL vanished with out a trace, fast forward to 87, JC abducted and murdered SB , he kept her car, he had the tax disc, now after allegedly abducting and killing SL with out a trace, he perfected the crime ,his next victim he made many a mistake one a perfect crime the other he was caught for, just doesn't add up imo . The victim leaves traces, go back to the Red Sierra I gave a link for in the previous thread, its alleged both SL and JC's dna were in that car , is that a myth ?
 
Ok lets run with JC the suspect, SL vanished with out a trace, fast forward to 87, JC abducted and murdered SB , he kept her car, he had the tax disc, now after allegedly abducting and killing SL with out a trace, he perfected the crime ,his next victim he made many a mistake one a perfect crime the other he was caught for, just doesn't add up imo . The victim leaves traces, go back to the Red Sierra I gave a link for in the previous thread, its alleged both SL and JC's dna were in that car , is that a myth ?

Objectivity is absent...and objectivity is required to do this justice.

I refer you the disappearance of Genette Tate, 13 years old, whilst delivering newspapers on her bike, in 1978. Her bike and newspapers were found in the road. No trace of her body or clothing has ever been found.

Devon and Cornwall Police carried out a review in 2014 and were preparing a file for the CPS for a decision to charge the child serial killer Robert Black with Jenette's murder. Black died in 2016 before the decision was made and the CPS would not assess the charging decision posthumously.

Genette would have been Black's first known victim, had he been charged and convicted. In which case he disposed of her in a way that she wouldn't be found.

Black's subsequent known victims were all deposited where they were found, which greatly assisted the evidential trail. Black was arrested when he was seen to abduct a young girl and drive out of the village only to turn around and drive back through the village as the witness was speaking to police at the scene!

N.B. The abducted girl was THE police officers daughter. He rescued his own daughter.....AND kept his cool!

Killers got lucky, particularly in the days before CCTV, ANPR, DNA and telecoms data, social media etc.

Killers also get more confident and their arrogance means they make mistakes.

JC thinks he the dogs....he's a bit thick really but he can't see it because he's a narcissist.

With SJL, I firmly believe that JC knew her and that he was looking to develop an 'acquaintance' further. He had conned her about who he was and what he was. She was drawn in by the apparent wealth initially but then sought to extinguish his interest in her.

With SJL he had a plan, he was on the charm offensive. He was able to persuade her to go voluntarily to a place where he made a move....she rejected him....his rage was as is well documented.

Because of JC being able to strike at an enclosed location and at a time of his choosing, he had less chance of being caught and had time on his side to dispose of her properly and clean up, not leave silly clues such as clothing, keys, sale particulars etc, combined with a fear of getting caught and not having the confidence of having killed before and got away with it.

Your argument has not considered any of these factors and these are very much the norm for most serial killers. They invariably get caught eventually, because their narcissism, over-confidence and arrogance makes them sloppy.

There will always be those who are pure psychopaths, think Bundy......who have no fear and are highly intelligent. They think clearly and logically in the most challenging of situations. They are not prone to making lazy mistakes.
 
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If this was JC and he was friends with her why choose a working day at lunch?

It would make a lot more sense at night where she is a lot less likely to be missed for many hours. Within a few hours she was missed and then MG went to her last known location to check it out.
 
If this was JC and he was friends with her why choose a working day at lunch?

It would make a lot more sense at night where she is a lot less likely to be missed for many hours. Within a few hours she was missed and then MG went to her last known location to check it out.

I believe SJL made the lunchtime appointment. JC may have been badgering her, flowers, wanting to meet up etc.

SJL wanted it done....to tell him she wasn't interested in taking it any further.

Meeting at lunchtime provided her with a get out/excuse to break off the meet reasonably quickly as far as she thought....that she had to get back to work, meet a client at another viewing etc.

Maybe SJL deliberately met at 37 Shorrolds Road and wrote it in the diary as a viewing, so that her colleagues would know where to find her if she didn't return withing an hour or two.....who knows she may have had a premonition that she didn't feel able to articulate because of the impression it would give to her colleagues....after all she was still officially in a relationship with AL at the time. Remember there were no mobile phones to assist with a call for help or a pre-arranged call from a friend.

Evening meets can give mixed messages, which SJL didn't want to happen or to have to cover for with her friends/family/AL.

This is just my theory, based purely on how such a situation could arise and how it could play out with someone such as JC. A man who responds with extreme violence to rejection.
 
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With respect, are Webslueths now saying that no other possibilities or suspect(s) (other than Cannan), can be discussed here now, as it will be deemed as 'anti-LE'?
I don't know how my post relating to LE bashing turned into questioning about John Cannan.

"Anti-LE" is the generalized bashing of them with such comments such as "well, they don't know their butt from a whole in the ground" or "LE obviously didn't do their job", etc etc. If members wish to ask things like "did they check such and such" or "I wonder why they didn't do such and such" is fine. It's just the generalized negative opinions about law enforcement that are not allowed.

It's all in the approach. If members want to question what LE did or did not do, it can be done in such a way that it is not bashing them. Just the facts without any unsubstantiated anti-LE sentiments.

JC can always be discussed as he was announced as the suspect. What is NOT allowed is using the names of other individuals and discussing them as a POI or suspect, insinuations or accusations, and sleuthing out their personal and background information related to them and posting it on a public thread. Discuss anything you want in PMs but realize that publicly discussing someone in relation to a murder, on a public thread, leaves both members and Websleuths open to legal repurcussions of libel or slander, and nobody needs that.

IF, for example, a neighbour Mr. ABC was the last one to see a victim. It's fine to question why Mr, ABC (always using initial only without naming them) did such and such. To come flat out and say "Mr. ABC obviously killed the victim" or "Mr. ABC is obviously hiding something" is not allowed. It's just common sense and responsibile posting on the internet where the whole world can see what is being said.

Any more questions in this regard, jump off any post to Report and ask, without members jumping on the bandwagon to derail the thread with off topic comments about freedom of speech or questions and slams about Websleuths or its moderation.
 
If this was JC and he was friends with her why choose a working day at lunch?

It would make a lot more sense at night where she is a lot less likely to be missed for many hours. Within a few hours she was missed and then MG went to her last known location to check it out.

Indeed, for anyone to plan an abduction in the middle of the work day is risky and time pressured as that person could be missed immediately. Also there's a huge risk of them bringing someone along with them. Plus daylight hours in a residential area. So, maybe it wasn't a planned abduction but a plotted meet up gone wrong?
 
Indeed, for anyone to plan an abduction in the middle of the work day is risky and time pressured as that person could be missed immediately. Also there's a huge risk of them bringing someone along with them. Plus daylight hours in a residential area. So, maybe it wasn't a planned abduction but a plotted meet up gone wrong?

@Observe_dont_Absorb agreed it was a meet up gone wrong!

I believe that JC's plan was a sleazy 'charm offensive' as he was chasing after SJL, his intent beforehand was not to abduct and murder.

SJL arranged to meet at lunchtime as she wanted to tell him 'no thanks', he thought it was an opportunity to work his magic. He had enough 'charm' and enough persuasion for her to go with him, who knows where? Who knows the charm may have worked a little and she started errrring. However, he pushed his luck, tried to kiss her or worse, she said 'no', he lost the plot and reverted to type, of being a crazed and terrifying psychopath intend on absolute violence and control!

SJL wouldn't take a work colleague to tell a bloke "it's over", particularly if she's still supposed to be with AL.

Now tell me that this 'everyday' scenario, because that is what it is, except without and abduction and murder, doesn't knock DV's PoW tale into a cocked hat for realism and plain old 'common sense'!
 
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Now the Met have so much confidence in JD the can’t be bothered to search that part of the canal.
Excuse was it was done as part of another investigation, guess what, they searched the canal, but not at Gallows Bridge.
Looks like a typical Met approach to crime investigation?

Gallows Bridge is on the River Brent not a canal (Grand Union or any other).

Being a river it has flow and consequently is prone to silting up and become obstructed, which increases the risk of flooding at times of high rain fall and high flow.

Because of this it is subject to periodic dredging.

The combination of third party information and in particular the periodic dredging was the reason why the Met Police decided that is was not appropriate to undertake a police search.

It's also a reality that the Met are on a limited budget and have to spend wisely.

A significant amount has been spent on the SJL enquiry over the years, quite possibly one of the costliest ever. The Met, with so much demand on serious crime investigation has to make a judgement of where to spend that money and the most serious current investigations will no doubt be the priority over a case nearly 40 years old. Cold hard reality.

It is disappointing when misplaced facts and a lack of insight are used to undermine LE.
 
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Indeed, for anyone to plan an abduction in the middle of the work day is risky and time pressured as that person could be missed immediately. Also there's a huge risk of them bringing someone along with them. Plus daylight hours in a residential area. So, maybe it wasn't a planned abduction but a plotted meet up gone wrong?
Well this is the typical approach that JC would use, he doesn’t plan that well. If it was him he’d have tried to persuade SJL not to dump him, then when this failed the red mist would descend.
IMO his planning would only go as far as what he might do if SJL dumped him.
Shirley Banks was kept captive for some time before he murdered her. Maybe he did the same with SJL.
It’s one option that fits with the crazy time of day SJL was abducted.
 
Well this is the typical approach that JC would use, he doesn’t plan that well. If it was him he’d have tried to persuade SJL not to dump him, then when this failed the red mist would descend.
IMO his planning would only go as far as what he might do if SJL dumped him.
Shirley Banks was kept captive for some time before he murdered her. Maybe he did the same with SJL.
It’s one option that fits with the crazy time of day SJL was abducted.

Agreed that without SJL knowing JC in some 'positive' way then this could not have happened in broad daylight without overwhelming risk. I don't even think JC was stupid enough to abduct a stranger in West London on a working summers day lunchtime.

I think JC's mindset was one of having his way, with or without consent. He had a suitable location lined up to take SJL to, which she likely went to voluntarily......his charm and demeanour may have totally disarmed her, because he did have that ability at a surface level.

As I have said before, JC made a move, SJL stifled it, JC saw red!
 
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