UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #6

[Interested_But_Confused]

I also think it's interesting that BW concedes she could be mistaken about seeing SJL's car in the FPR, but nobody else admits they might be mistaken about having seen her car outside 123SR. Somehow this makes me more confident in BW, not less.

RSBM. We know Suzy's car was found outside 123SR, so at least some of the sightings of it must have been accurate. I guess the questions are: what time was it parked there, was it ever moved after it was first parked there, and was another similar car parked there at any point? At this point in 2024, sadly, I doubt we'll ever know.

Unless the witnesses were mistaken about the time, or mistakenly thought they were seeing Suzy's car when they weren't, the only way every witness (apart from that pesky schoolboy) could be accounted for is if Suzy's car was parked on SR at around 12:45, driven away again and on FPR by 2:45, then returned to SR by the time the garage owner got home at 5:15.

But the witnesses seem to describe the car as always being parked in exactly the same place. That appears to make it less likely the car was moved and then returned, and also less likely it could have been two different vehicles.

Unless this was such an elaborately staged and pre-planned murder that someone planted a white Fiesta on SR in advance, then replaced it with Suzy's later in the afternoon knowing witnesses would report having seen it hours earlier than they possibly could have. I'm not really serious, but at this point I could almost believe aliens swooped down and took Suzy!

 

[WestLondoner]

The question of whether BW or WJ is more reliable about the car is kind of asymmetric, because depending who's right about it, she may debunk some other narrative.

If WJ is right, then SJL never went to 37SR. Therefore BW is wrong, but so too is HR, and so are the two other witnesses who are supposed have seen SJL in SR, and so are those who claimed she took the 37SR keys and particulars with her when she left. If she wasn't going there, none of that happened. If WJ is right, also, then either SJL drove it there with the seat in the wrong position, or someone else drove it there.

If BW is right, then WJ and the taxi driver who reckon they saw the car there earlier are wrong, and by omission, so is everyone who never noticed when the car really did arrive.

The only way WJ and BW can both be right is if there were two cars. One arrives that's not SJL's and is later replaced by one that is.

I actually wonder, looking at that "reconstruction", whether this in fact might be likelier than we think. If you look at WJ's front fence at around 4.15 in that video, it hides the lower part of the car parked opposite. She could only have seen the whole side profile of the car if she made a habit of leaving her front gate open.

This makes me wonder if what she saw was two different cars that looked similar from the glass up. Compare these side on views of a Fiesta, an Escort, a Vauxhall Nova and a Peugeot 205, the latter being similar size cars made by competitors. If you could only see the top half because fence, and you weren't really paying attention, could you definitely tell a white Fiesta from a white Nova?

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

The question of whether BW or WJ is more reliable about the car is kind of asymmetric, because depending who's right about it, she may debunk some other narrative.

If WJ is right, then SJL never went to 37SR. Therefore BW is wrong, but so too is HR, and so are the two other witnesses who are supposed have seen SJL in SR, and so are those who claimed she took the 37SR keys and particulars with her when she left. If she wasn't going there, none of that happened. If WJ is right, also, then either SJL drove it there with the seat in the wrong position, or someone else drove it there.

If BW is right, then WJ and the taxi driver who reckon they saw the car there earlier are wrong, and by omission, so is everyone who never noticed when the car really did arrive.

The only way WJ and BW can both be right is if there were two cars. One arrives that's not SJL's and is later replaced by one that is.

I actually wonder, looking at that "reconstruction", whether this in fact might be likelier than we think. If you look at WJ's front fence at around 4.15 in that video, it hides the lower part of the car parked opposite. She could only have seen the whole side profile of the car if she made a habit of leaving her front gate open.

This makes me wonder if what she saw was two different cars that looked similar from the glass up. Compare these side on views of a Fiesta, an Escort, a Vauxhall Nova and a Peugeot 205, the latter being similar size cars made by competitors. If you could only see the top half because fence, and you weren't really paying attention, could you definitely tell a white Fiesta from a white Nova?

Although the Crimewatch reconstruction shows WJ looking at the car out of her window, through the front gate, it also shows her passing the car as she left to go shopping at 12:45. So whatever model of car it was, I think she and the taxi driver must have seen the entire car.

Assuming WJ knew what time it was when she left to go shopping, 12:45 must also be pretty definitive.

If the garage owner owned a pale blue Fiesta, did he always park it in the garage or were WJ and others used to seeing a light-coloured Fiesta parked in that spot? A detail such as that might muddle their memory of exactly what they saw.

The taxi driver saw the car at approx. 2:00PM and WJ returned home at about 3:30PM, which does leave a potential window for the car to have been on FPR at 2:45PM. But as you say, that raises the question of why Suzy would have gone to Stevenage Road rather than Shorrolds Road at 12:45, and whether she could have been seen at 37SR if that were the case.

I fear we could puzzle over this for another 40 years and never really get anywhere.

 

[WiseOwl]

Although the Crimewatch reconstruction shows WJ looking at the car out of her window, through the front gate, it also shows her passing the car as she left to go shopping at 12:45. So whatever model of car it was, I think she and the taxi driver must have seen the entire car.

Assuming WJ knew what time it was when she left to go shopping, 12:45 must also be pretty definitive.

If the garage owner owned a pale blue Fiesta, did he always park it in the garage or were WJ and others used to seeing a light-coloured Fiesta parked in that spot? A detail such as that might muddle their memory of exactly what they saw.

The taxi driver saw the car at approx. 2:00PM and WJ returned home at about 3:30PM, which does leave a potential window for the car to have been on FPR at 2:45PM. But as you say, that raises the question of why Suzy would have gone to Stevenage Road rather than Shorrolds Road at 12:45, and whether she could have been seen at 37SR if that were the case.

I fear we could puzzle over this for another 40 years and never really get anywhere.

WJ said that she knew it was 12.45 when she left home that afternoon as her first port of call was the bank. It took her 4 minutes to walk to the bank, and she stated that when she went in she looked at the clock and it said 12.49, so she knew she left home at 12.45.

As WJ left home at 12.45 then the car must have been parked there earlier, as she didn't see anyone park it up or get out. The only possible explanantion for this (if true) is that the member of staff from Sturgis who used Suzy's car that morning had left it in Stevenage Road, but this seems extremely unlikely. If not, then WJ has got her timings wrong as there is no way Suzy could have driven her car and parked it up in Stevenage Road before 12.45, having left the office around 12.40.

 

[Pinkizzy]

Did Suzy drive another Sturgis vehicle when her car was in use?

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

WJ said that she knew it was 12.45 when she left home that afternoon as her first port of call was the bank. It took her 4 minutes to walk to the bank, and she stated that when she went in she looked at the clock and it said 12.49, so she knew she left home at 12.45.

As WJ left home at 12.45 then the car must have been parked there earlier, as she didn't see anyone park it up or get out. The only possible explanantion for this (if true) is that the member of staff from Sturgis who used Suzy's car that morning had left it in Stevenage Road, but this seems extremely unlikely. If not, then WJ has got her timings wrong as there is no way Suzy could have driven her car and parked it up in Stevenage Road before 12.45, having left the office around 12.40.

It really is so confusing.

We know, without any question, that it was Suzy's car parked on Stevenage Road at 10:00PM when it was found. And the witnesses say it was the same car that had been parked, without moving, since at least lunchtime. Yet Suzy's friend thought she saw Suzy driving her car on FPR at 2:45PM.

There must have been a car parked on Stevenage Road at lunchtime. If it was really there as early as midday, either it wasn't Suzy's, or it seemingly can't have been Suzy who put it there. If it was there too early for Suzy to have driven it, the only logical person seems to be Suzy's colleague--unless it was stolen whilst in the colleague's possession and he didn't want to admit it. But either way, he would have needed some other way to get back to Sturgis. Plus, if Suzy's car wasn't outside work when she left for the "Mr Kipper" appointment, why didn't she go back inside to ask where it was? And how did she actually get to wherever she went?

Every possible answer seems to throw up a dozen new questions.

 

[WestLondoner]

there is no way Suzy could have driven her car and parked it up in Stevenage Road before 12.45, having left the office around 12.40.

If I'm not mistaken, the idea that she left at 12.40 is itself based on the supposition that the 12.45 diary entry was genuine. She had a 12.45 appointment, it's 5 minutes away ergo she left at 12.40. But what if it's not genuine? There was no clock in the office, nor any reason for anyone to notice what time she left, so why can't she have left Sturgis at 12.20 or 12.30 on her real errand?

This would allow her car to have been the one seen by WJ. This debunks both BW and DV, but it also debunks the entire 37SR narrative, because she was clearly never there.

So we now have absolutely no idea who she might have been with after she left the office. The supposed identikit pictures of Mr Kipper at 37SR depict, as DV has said, some random who has nothing to do with any of it.

The problem with the WJ sighting is that it doesn't look like she drove the car. It does look like someone abandoned the car in a hurry. This could have been because she pulled up behind someone she was meeting who was perhaps parked also, and got out of her car leaving it unlocked and not properly parked, expecting a brief conversation. She never returned to her own car even to lock it, nor did anyone else, yet somehow the seat got moved back.

 

[WiseOwl]

The idea that Suzy left the office at 12.40 is not based on the supposition that the 12.45 diary entry was genuine, but what was recorded by AS in his book:

PAGE 28 & 29: KR went to her bank at 12.30 but returned 5 minutes later, and remembered seeing Susannah on the phone and half-sitting on her desk as if she was about to leave. She went to pick up the keys to 37 Shorrolds Road from the key board behind MG's desk, and then took the house details from a drawer. Everything seemed normal. She was carrying her purse too, and a ring holding the keys of her car, the office and her flat.

So KR was reported as going to the bank at 12.30, then returned to the office 5 minutes later, so 12.35. Then you have to factor in Suzy finishing the phone call, going behind MG's desk to pick up the keys, getting the house details from a drawer and then leaving the office. So from the information in AS book, it would seem as if Suzy left the office about 12.40.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

If Suzy leaving the office could have been a few minutes earlier than 12:40, or WJ leaving to go shopping could have been a few minutes later than 12:45 (based purely on the possibility of a watch being a few minutes slow or fast), then Suzy's car could just about have been on Stevenage Road when WJ believes she saw it.

But if that schoolboy was correct about seeing it at midday, Suzy can't possibly have put it there.

 

[WestLondoner]

But if that schoolboy was correct about seeing it at midday, Suzy can't possibly have put it there.

Yep, this is the issue. Someone is right here and someone is wrong. The schoolboy and BW make WJ categorically wrong, but if she's actually right then there was no Shorrolds visit, nor (probably) was SJL driving the car when it got to 123SR.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Does the schoolboy make WJ categorically wrong? WJ first saw the car when she went shopping at 12:45, but did she say it couldn't have been there earlier? If WJ was as specific as saying she first saw the car at 12:45, and it wasn't there five minutes earlier, that would be a crucial window which Suzy potentially could have fit into. Of course the schoolboy would have to be wrong.

I'd also say BW's sighting on FPR isn't *necessarily* wrong if the car was outside 123SR at 12:45. WJ didn't return home until 3:30 and the taxi driver saw the car at 2:00, leaving 90 minutes when the car could have moved--and BW's sighting is right in the middle of that window. But it would mean the car *did* move and then return again.

And if Suzy *was* seen at 37SR, it would presumably mean she must have parked her car outside 123SR and then been driven to 37SR in a different car. Which doesn't really make sense.

Most of the potential sightings seem to be theoretically possible, but quite convoluted and not very plausible. On the other hand, if the schoolboy is correct about the car being parked at 12:00, it blows the whole thing out of the water... *headshake*

 

[WestLondoner]

Does the schoolboy make WJ categorically wrong? WJ first saw the car when she went shopping at 12:45, but did she say it couldn't have been there earlier?

The problems are reconciling to the boy's account and to BW's.

If the boy is right and a car was there at noon, then he did not see SJL's car, because she hadn't yet left the office.

WJ maintains SJL's car was already outside her house at 12.45 and was still there at 10pm having never moved. If so, then either

• it had literally just arrived at 12.45 and parked in the place vacated by the identical 12 noon car; or
• the car she passed at 12.45 was another car altogether, it left at some later time, and the space was then taken by whoever was driving SJL's car.

Either way, there had to have been two cars. The boy's sighting supports this - he saw the other car.

What we don't know is whether WJ saw both or one. If she actually saw both and took them for the same one, then the 12.45 sighting was not the car she saw at 3.30, which was SJL's. If she only saw SJL's car then it left Sturgis at 12.40 and was driven straight to 123SR at 12.45.

The claim it never moved is based IIRC on WJ's recollection of how it was parked. It could of course have moved and come back, or moved and been replaced by SJL's car, and she just didn't notice.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I'd be very curious to know who the schoolboy was, and when he made his claim to have seen Suzy's car, i.e. immediately after Suzy went missing or days/weeks/months later. His story seems to be the one with the least supporting documentation.

If his account is accurate, then indeed, it either can't have been Suzy's car, or somehow it got there before Suzy left work.

What makes me believe WJ was seeing Suzy's car the entire time is that it was parked in such a conspicuous manner, partially crossing the entrance to the garage. WJ saw it parked like that, the taxi driver at 2:00PM saw it parked like that, and it was found by police parked like that. It's the sort of thing that would be more likely to stand out, even if the car itself was fairly nondescript.

Whether it was two different cars, or whether it was one car which moved and came back, there would need to be an explanation for it being parked in that same peculiar manner every time. The only explanation I can think of is that there was another car or obstacle preventing the Fiesta from being parked further forward.

 

[Eastend Eagle]

The idea that Suzy left the office at 12.40 is not based on the supposition that the 12.45 diary entry was genuine, but what was recorded by AS in his book:

PAGE 28 & 29: KR went to her bank at 12.30 but returned 5 minutes later, and remembered seeing Susannah on the phone and half-sitting on her desk as if she was about to leave. She went to pick up the keys to 37 Shorrolds Road from the key board behind MG's desk, and then took the house details from a drawer. Everything seemed normal. She was carrying her purse too, and a ring holding the keys of her car, the office and her flat.

So KR was reported as going to the bank at 12.30, then returned to the office 5 minutes later, so 12.35. Then you have to factor in Suzy finishing the phone call, going behind MG's desk to pick up the keys, getting the house details from a drawer and then leaving the office. So from the information in AS book, it would seem as if Suzy left the office about 12.40.

Where is KR now? She seems to remember a lot.

 

[rls11]

Where is KR now? She seems to remember a lot.

I'm also slightly puzzled by her account that Suzy "was carrying her purse too, and a ring holding the keys of her car, the office and her flat." If I worked in a place where my car was used by other people in my team, I wouldn't have the car key on the same ring as my flat. I would have a separate key ring for the car key. This makes me realise how now, 40 years on with no more answers, statements made at the time weren't thought to be challenged...

 

[Eastend Eagle]

I'm also slightly puzzled by her account that Suzy "was carrying her purse too, and a ring holding the keys of her car, the office and her flat." If I worked in a place where my car was used by other people in my team, I wouldn't have the car key on the same ring as my flat. I would have a separate key ring for the car key. This makes me realise how now, 40 years on with no more answers, statements made at the time weren't thought to be challenged...

Has KR been heard from since the immediate aftermath of this crime?

 

[Terryb808]

One scenario that supports WJ is that Suzy was taken as she reached her car in Whittingstall Road. She’d have got in, put her things in the door pocket ready to go.
She’s then taken and someone else abandoned the car in Stevenage Road.
This accounts for:
1. The drivers seat.
2. Handbrake off.
3. Drivers door unlocked & passengers door locked.
4. Parked in a hurry.
5. Never moved between 12.45 & 5.15pm
This of course means at least 2 people involved, they’re going to know when she’s leaving the office as the Shorrolds appointment is in the desk diary.
Also, that she never went to Shorrolds Road or the PoW.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I think BW said she didn't see "Suzy's" face because "Suzy" was turning towards a man in the passenger seat? As much as BW believed it *was* Suzy, she also acknowledged it might have just been a similar car. Although BW was the only witness who actually knew Suzy, the fact that she didn't see her face must leave some room for doubt.

I have to say, I find the Shorrolds Road sightings very plausible. MG didn't go to 37SR until about 4:30PM if I remember correctly, and for so many witnesses to potentially be three or four hours off on their timing seems unlikely. Suzy had written in her diary that she had an appointment at 37SR at 12:45, and subsequently a woman matching her description was reportedly seen by a number of witnesses at 37SR at around 12:45-1:00PM. I don't know. It's only a gut feeling, but I do think that was Suzy.

How she was on Shorrolds if her car was on Stevenage is tricky to answer. Because I also think WJ's account is very plausible.

 

[rls11]

I think BW said she didn't see "Suzy's" face because "Suzy" was turning towards a man in the passenger seat? As much as BW believed it *was* Suzy, she also acknowledged it might have just been a similar car. Although BW was the only witness who actually knew Suzy, the fact that she didn't see her face must leave some room for doubt.

I have to say, I find the Shorrolds Road sightings very plausible. MG didn't go to 37SR until about 4:30PM if I remember correctly, and for so many witnesses to potentially be three or four hours off on their timing seems unlikely. Suzy had written in her diary that she had an appointment at 37SR at 12:45, and subsequently a woman matching her description was reportedly seen by a number of witnesses at 37SR at around 12:45-1:00PM. I don't know. It's only a gut feeling, but I do think that was Suzy.

How she was on Shorrolds if her car was on Stevenage is tricky to answer. Because I also think WJ's account is very plausible.

Although BW may not have been sure she saw Suzy, didn't she say she saw the straw hat in the back window? Maybe I've remembered incorrectly but, if she did, to me this adds weight to her seeing Suzy's car because it's a very specific detail (although I appreciate it's not unique, and doesn't corroborate day /time of the sighting...)

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Although BW may not have been sure she saw Suzy, didn't she say she saw the straw hat in the back window? Maybe I've remembered incorrectly but, if she did, to me this adds weight to her seeing Suzy's car because it's a very specific detail (although I appreciate it's not unique, and doesn't corroborate day /time of the sighting...)

I wasn't aware of that detail, but if BW thought she saw the hat in the window that is strong supporting evidence.

But I *think* some of the sightings on Stevenage Road also reported seeing the hat, which would just add further confusion.