VA - 6-YEAR-OLD in custody after shooting teacher, Newport News, Jan 2023 *mom charged* #2

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Teachers use their phone in class for many things- attendance, showing media, keeping time and we also have the right to have our phone in the classroom for emergencies - like any other professional. It doesn't mean she is misusing it. Students give the same question, why can teachers have their phone and not students snd the short answer is because they are TEACHERS and adult professionals, it seems strange, to me, that a teacher having a phone in class is the issue in all of this.imo

In addition it was said she was reading a book go the class and they were a seated- he was, iirc, seated in front of her, took out the gun and *advertiser censored* her as she was reaching to take the gun from him.
I know one of the teachers in the Covenant School definitely had her phone, because she was on the phone to emergency when the police were knocking on the classroom door, and she was calmly saying that she wasn't going to open the door unless the folks on the phone verified it really was LE and not the shooter at the door.

In the age of school shootings in America, or anywhere, really, it makes sense for teachers to have their phone on them.

I live with two teachers. One, my mother, puts her phone in the safe every day and never uses it in school time and just today, had to be reminded where to find texts she's received on it. (She's great on other tech devices, she's ridiculously good at family history since it all went digital, she's just got no interest in using her phone as something to do anything but make phone calls.)

The other is almost twenty years younger, and always has her phone on her, both for food, water, and medication alarms to keep her healthy, and to access media for her classroom, such as stories read aloud on sites like YouTube and ABCKids (Australia). It's not something that she's fiddling with when she should be teaching, it's integrated into her teaching as a device that's a resource, just as much as her school laptop or her whiteboard.

Both of these people are old enough to be Ms Zwerner's mother. Grandmother, in my mum's case. It makes complete sense to me that she'd have her phone with her while teaching.

MOO
 
There are also OSHA standards (procedures and evaluations) that I'm sure the principal was well-aware... and should have been known/followed by administrative staff.

ETA: Doesn't seem possible to hide behind "worker's comp" when the admin didn't uphold their training for a safe environment. jmo

I’m not sure OSHA, which is federal, applies to public schools which are state controlled.
At least during Covid, OSHA was not applied to all public schools across the nation in the same manner.

Local educational agencies (LEAs), such as public school districts, and other state and local government entities are not subject to federal regulation, inspection, or enforcement by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA)
OSHA and Public Schools

JMO
 
Teachers use their phone in class for many things- attendance, showing media, keeping time and we also have the right to have our phone in the classroom for emergencies - like any other professional. It doesn't mean she is misusing it. Students give the same question, why can teachers have their phone and not students snd the short answer is because they are TEACHERS and adult professionals, it seems strange, to me, that a teacher having a phone in class is the issue in all of this.imo

In addition it was said she was reading a book go the class and they were a seated- he was, iirc, seated in front of her, took out the gun and *advertiser censored* her as she was reaching to take the gun from him.

Absolutely, the teacher of 1st grade students is not a 1st grader herself.
She is not a teenager working at a burger stand playing on her phone instead of doing her job, or a teen girl babysitting some kids at a park playing on her phone.

She is a degreed professional, who has been taught how to manage a classroom of children so that they learn to read, do math, and behave like civilized humans.
It would help the general public to spend a day in an elementary classroom and watch and learn- teachers do so much that is right and beneficial to all of our lives. Unless they have been shown to do something wrong- they should be given our gratitude and support.
If she had that gratitude and support of the parents and admin- she would not have gotten shot.
The parents of this boy and the admin of the school should have done their jobs better, but instead they left it up to her And the children in the classroom to deal with it.

JMO
 
Respectfully, and IMO, some possible reasons no one has questioned why AZ was on her phone are a) because it’s largely irrelevant to the child’s aggressive response to her, and b) it was AZ’s prerogative, as an adult, to check her phone whenever she needed to. She could’ve been reading a weather alert from the school, making a note to herself to document an occurrence of troubling behavior in a student, checking for an update on a relative in the hospital, etc. No reason she could have possibly provided to the child in the moment—which she had absolutely no obligation to do—would have stopped the child from reacting violently and smashing the phone, because all that seems to have registered with him is that he wasn’t getting what he demanded (her attention) and his response IMO was driven by the frustration and rage he felt at being “ignored.” In short, that is why I think the “why” of AZ’s in-class phone use is not germane to the discussion here.
Totally agree! I'm an elementary school special ed teacher, and my phone is usually somewhere nearby. During the school day, I communicate with other staff members (intervention aides, classroom teachers, other special ed staff) and I also use it for timers, etc.

<modsnip> Her use doesn't mean that she wasn't giving her attention to her students.
 
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My apologies to anyone offended by my post. As I said in that post, here in the UK, or at least the part where I live, no staff are allowed their personal phones in school during school times, they must be kept in a locker or somewhere else secure, and can be checked in the staff room during breaks. It is a safeguarding issue due to almost every phone now having a camera. Then again, we aren't allowed to keep guns in our homes that could be brought into school by our 6yr olds, so we wouldn't need personal cell phones to call LE to report an active shooter.

There shouldn't be a need to check weather alerts on a personal phone whilst teaching a class, I'm pretty certainly the office could let you know if there was an urgent weather warning.

Other examples were given in posts here, some I can understand, others not so much, but my confusion was based on what I said, we aren't allowed phones in our classrooms, or even in the kitchens where I worked, and I didn't realise that it was common place in the US to have them. For the majority of examples given, our teachers have walkie talkies to communicate with eachother and the office.

<modsnip> ... It was a question. I specifically said AZ and indeed the whole class, and anyone else that had ever been hurt due to this child's emotionally driven violence, absolutely did not deserve what happened that day. I also didn't say that AZ caused this, I merely tried to point out the motivation from the child's perspective, which I haven't seen many here try to understand. Reasons, not excuses.
 
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I’m not sure OSHA, which is federal, applies to public schools which are state controlled.
At least during Covid, OSHA was not applied to all public schools across the nation in the same manner.

Local educational agencies (LEAs), such as public school districts, and other state and local government entities are not subject to federal regulation, inspection, or enforcement by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA)
OSHA and Public Schools

JMO

I could be wrong but these links suggest Virginia has an OSHA approved state plan. See my previous post #935 regarding VOSH.

I mean... what happened to "prevention and protection" listed below?? Please explain what I'm missing.


Maintaining a safe and secure school building involves planning in five major categories:
  • Prevention – actions schools take to prevent an emergency incident
  • Protection – steps taken to secure schools against manmade or natural disasters and acts of violence
  • Mitigation – actions taken to eliminate or reduce the loss of property and life by lessening the impact of an emergency
  • Response – steps taken to stabilize an emergency once it has occurred
  • Recovery – actions taken to restore the learning environment



D. In addition, the school administration shall ensure that the school has:

1. Written procedures to follow in emergencies such as fire, injury, illness, allergic reactions, and violent or threatening behavior.

3. A written procedure, in accordance with guidelines established by the local school board, for responding to violent, disruptive, or illegal activities by students on school property or during a school sponsored activity;

Also, see:

 
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My apologies to anyone offended by my post. As I said in that post, here in the UK, or at least the part where I live, no staff are allowed their personal phones in school during school times, they must be kept in a locker or somewhere else secure, and can be checked in the staff room during breaks. It is a safeguarding issue due to almost every phone now having a camera. Then again, we aren't allowed to keep guns in our homes that could be brought into school by our 6yr olds, so we wouldn't need personal cell phones to call LE to report an active shooter.

There shouldn't be a need to check weather alerts on a personal phone whilst teaching a class, I'm pretty certainly the office could let you know if there was an urgent weather warning.

Other examples were given in posts here, some I can understand, others not so much, but my confusion was based on what I said, we aren't allowed phones in our classrooms, or even in the kitchens where I worked, and I didn't realise that it was common place in the US to have them. For the majority of examples given, our teachers have walkie talkies to communicate with eachother and the office.

<modsnip> It was a question. I specifically said AZ and indeed the whole class, and anyone else that had ever been hurt due to this child's emotionally driven violence, absolutely did not deserve what happened that day. I also didn't say that AZ caused this, I merely tried to point out the motivation from the child's perspective, which I haven't seen many here try to understand. Reasons, not excuses.

This is a good post explaining what your thoughts were.

However, I wouldn’t rely on (at least parts) of the office or Admin for anything after their reported handling of multiple situations with this child. It seems they do not support their staff, and not just Abby.
*My opinions
 
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I could be wrong but these links suggest Virginia has an OSHA approved state plan. See my previous post #935 regarding VOSH.

I mean... what happened to "prevention and protection" listed below?? Please explain what I'm missing.


Maintaining a safe and secure school building involves planning in five major categories:
  • Prevention – actions schools take to prevent an emergency incident
  • Protection – steps taken to secure schools against manmade or natural disasters and acts of violence
  • Mitigation – actions taken to eliminate or reduce the loss of property and life by lessening the impact of an emergency
  • Response – steps taken to stabilize an emergency once it has occurred
  • Recovery – actions taken to restore the learning environment



D. In addition, the school administration shall ensure that the school has:

1. Written procedures to follow in emergencies such as fire, injury, illness, allergic reactions, and violent or threatening behavior.

3. A written procedure, in accordance with guidelines established by the local school board, for responding to violent, disruptive, or illegal activities by students on school property or during a school sponsored activity;

Also, see:

OSHA has no jurisdiction. This is VOSHA. So I guess we will see if VOSHA comes after them and looks into other schools as well.
 
My apologies to anyone offended by my post. As I said in that post, here in the UK, or at least the part where I live, no staff are allowed their personal phones in school during school times, they must be kept in a locker or somewhere else secure, and can be checked in the staff room during breaks. It is a safeguarding issue due to almost every phone now having a camera. Then again, we aren't allowed to keep guns in our homes that could be brought into school by our 6yr olds, so we wouldn't need personal cell phones to call LE to report an active shooter.

There shouldn't be a need to check weather alerts on a personal phone whilst teaching a class, I'm pretty certainly the office could let you know if there was an urgent weather warning.

Other examples were given in posts here, some I can understand, others not so much, but my confusion was based on what I said, we aren't allowed phones in our classrooms, or even in the kitchens where I worked, and I didn't realise that it was common place in the US to have them. For the majority of examples given, our teachers have walkie talkies to communicate with eachother and the office.

<modsnip> It was a question. I specifically said AZ and indeed the whole class, and anyone else that had ever been hurt due to this child's emotionally driven violence, absolutely did not deserve what happened that day. I also didn't say that AZ caused this, I merely tried to point out the motivation from the child's perspective, which I haven't seen many here try to understand. Reasons, not excuses.
<modsnip: Quoted post was modsnipped>

I also understand the empathy for the child, who is after all, just 6. I feel that he was giving so many red flags that were dismissed by his family. 6 is way too young to truly understand the effects of what he was doing.
 
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Absolutely, the teacher of 1st grade students is not a 1st grader herself.
She is not a teenager working at a burger stand playing on her phone instead of doing her job, or a teen girl babysitting some kids at a park playing on her phone.

She is a degreed professional, who has been taught how to manage a classroom of children so that they learn to read, do math, and behave like civilized humans.
It would help the general public to spend a day in an elementary classroom and watch and learn- teachers do so much that is right and beneficial to all of our lives. Unless they have been shown to do something wrong- they should be given our gratitude and support.
If she had that gratitude and support of the parents and admin- she would not have gotten shot.
The parents of this boy and the admin of the school should have done their jobs better, but instead they left it up to her And the children in the classroom to deal with it.

JMO
Absolutely. It seems strange to me to even question this, esp when there are discussions about arming teachers.

I think the issue is what is expected from teachers in this situation and plenty others on a daily basis when nobody- not parents, not admin and certainly not the general public wants to deal with a child's issues themselves.
 
It is not OSHA. I think this is being missed. But maybe it is irrelevant. Nothing is likely to be done that is really impactful. And that is whether it is OSHA or VOSHA.

Apparently, I haven't missed anything ;) Whatever you want to call it (or not call it)... safety in the school as a work place was at least recognized in Virginia (and OSHA approved this). I still have hope that someone, somewhere has some impact... even if you don't.
 
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It is not OSHA. I think this is being missed. But maybe it is irrelevant. Nothing is likely to be done that is really impactful. And that is whether it is OSHA or VOSHA.

Agreed, in all of the school shooting cases I’ve not heard a single time when OSHA or VOSHA stepped in for any kind of inspection.

Public schools are locally governed by the state, and local school district. Tip toeing on these two would be unlikely, in my experience any violation would be of protocols by these…
- state education agency
- school district, school board, employee handbook, employee contract
- teacher union

JMO
 
Agreed, in all of the school shooting cases I’ve not heard a single time when OSHA or VOSHA stepped in for any kind of inspection.

Public schools are locally governed by the state, and local school district. Tip toeing on these two would be unlikely, in my experience any violation would be of protocols by these…
- state education agency
- school district, school board, employee handbook, employee contract
- teacher union

JMO

<modsnip: Removed snark>


I do see a link for Incident and Injury Control (under the Federal heading)... but conveniently it's broken, lol!
 
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I'm not saying I agree with it. I'm saying that parents cannot be forced into having their child evaluated. Clearly these parents were in denial about their son's issues and behaviors.

There should have been a plan in place, beyond having the family members serve as aides in the school.
Why would a parent NOT WANT an evaluation? In this case, the parents were well aware of their son's problems because, for a while, one was required to accompany him to school.

JMO
 
My apologies to anyone offended by my post. As I said in that post, here in the UK, or at least the part where I live, no staff are allowed their personal phones in school during school times, they must be kept in a locker or somewhere else secure, and can be checked in the staff room during breaks. It is a safeguarding issue due to almost every phone now having a camera. Then again, we aren't allowed to keep guns in our homes that could be brought into school by our 6yr olds, so we wouldn't need personal cell phones to call LE to report an active shooter.

There shouldn't be a need to check weather alerts on a personal phone whilst teaching a class, I'm pretty certainly the office could let you know if there was an urgent weather warning.

Other examples were given in posts here, some I can understand, others not so much, but my confusion was based on what I said, we aren't allowed phones in our classrooms, or even in the kitchens where I worked, and I didn't realise that it was common place in the US to have them. For the majority of examples given, our teachers have walkie talkies to communicate with eachother and the office.

<modsnip> ... It was a question. I specifically said AZ and indeed the whole class, and anyone else that had ever been hurt due to this child's emotionally driven violence, absolutely did not deserve what happened that day. I also didn't say that AZ caused this, I merely tried to point out the motivation from the child's perspective, which I haven't seen many here try to understand. Reasons, not excuses.

The tech level you are describing is 15-20 years old, in Texas. I observe in classrooms all over the state and have worked in education for over 35 years.
While tech availability and use is very different from school to school, it is used everywhere. More and more teachers are mandated to carry a device with them all day long.

Tasks once done by paper and pencil, PA system, phone, email, are now often done quietly without class interruption using a phone.
Attendance now takes less than 5 min. Years ago it took about two hours before all children on a campus were signed in.
During covid teachers communicated with parents during the day using pictures of their kids. Pics of student work, student digital work are now part of portfolios which are visible to parents and teachers. These follow kids if they change schools.

iPADs are being used In some Kindergartens, in some schools each child is issued an iPAD for using at school in 3rd grade. There is no assumption the kids are goofing off because they have a device. And- they are entrusted to take pictures or videos of classmates And record each other’s voices, as they create slide shows and presentations.

Tech has come a long way in the past 15 years, and covid pushed it forward faster.

What seems a big difference is the level of trust. The only reason an admin would demand teachers lock up their phones is a lack of trust. What I’m seeing here is admin who are tech savvy who trust their teachers. We must realize that anything a teacher can do on a computer- can also be done on a mobile device.
Teachers are no longer stuck behind their desks to tend to work, or at the board, or at the overhead projector.
Now they can walk around the room interacting with students, while they teach math using an iPAD that displays on a screen.

Yes there are some places where cell phones must be locked up- those working with classified docs.

It is silly to think adults who choose to teach cannot be trusted, employees all over the world go to work and carry their cell phones in their pockets.
Education must meet technology where it is, of all places Education should not be decades behind when it comes to technology. Yes, safe, private, and secure, but not behind.

JMO
 
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Why would a parent NOT WANT an evaluation? In this case, the parents were well aware of their son's problems because, for a while, one was required to accompany him to school.

JMO
I can't speak to the reasoning in this particular case, but some parents do not want their children to be "labeled" or placed in special educational settings. My sister and her ex refused ongoing evaluation for their son (my nephew, who is now 34) when he was in elementary school. It was obvious to family members that something was wrong with this child who was non-verbal until age 3. The parents enrolled him in a special pre-school program offered by the county, and he was able to start Kindergarten with his peers. Throughout elementary school, he participated in pull-out sessions until he decided that he didn't want to go to the special room any more. His parents chose to opt out of further evaluation and programming because they did not want him to be permanently "labeled" as having developmental issues which have, unfortunately, followed him throughout his life.

I can't be certain, of course, but I suspect that this might have been part of the reason that the 6-year-old in this case was kept in a regular classroom. Instead of getting the help that he so desperately needed, family and school personnel chose to mollycoddle this child and pretend that nothing was amiss. JMO
 
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Why would a parent NOT WANT an evaluation? In this case, the parents were well aware of their son's problems because, for a while, one was required to accompany him to school.

JMO
Oh wow. Most of the parents I have worked with definitely want an evaluation to further understand any issues (whether they qualify as having a disability or not) and to help their child.

However, you would be surprised how many parents do not want any kind of testing done. I have heard that their child cannot have a disability due to culture or future plans (college, possible military service). Many parents just aren't ready to accept a possible disability for their child.

Knowing that their child has issues and wanting more information or a "label" are two different things.
 
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