VA- 6-YEAR-OLD is in custody after shooting teacher

[PriorTheCreator]

Virginia boy who shot teacher Abigail Zwerner told another he wanted to set her on fire: report

A 6-year-old who shot his teacher allegedly told another educator he wanted to light her on fire and watch her die, according to a report.

Last month, the troubled boy nearly made good on his apparent murderous impulses, shooting first grader teacher Abigail Zwerner at Richneck Elementary School in Newport News., Va., officials have said. Zwerner survived.

Zwerner and other Richneck teachers said they had shared their fears about the child’s grave behavior with administrators, only to have their concerns downplayed or ignored, The Washington Post reported.

 

[YepperBepper]

that doesn't make any sense. The gun was secured per the parents. So if the gun was secured....

that doesn't make any sense. The gun was secured per the parents. So if the gun was secured....

I disagree. I have raised 4 children in my residence and have taught them all what a gun is for and why and when we use it. It's not a toy or a game. They have never touched a gun without permission. The parents claims the gun was secured in a closet on a shelf. How did the 6 year old get it if it was secured? We need to teach gun safety to our children, over and over again so they understand using a gun is deadly, regardless of whether the gun is secure or not. They have also been taught how to load, clean and use guns in the house since they were 3-4 years old. It's not about access - it's about teaching your children. If you as a parent are going to possess a firearm in your residence - then teach the rules, reinforce the rules and make sure your children learn the respect for a weapon and human life.

I disagree. I have raised 4 children in my residence and have taught them all what a gun is for and why and when we use it. It's not a toy or a game. They have never touched a gun without permission. The parents claims the gun was secured in a closet on a shelf. How did the 6 year old get it if it was secured? We need to teach gun safety to our children, over and over again so they understand using a gun is deadly, regardless of whether the gun is secure or not. They have also been taught how to load, clean and use guns in the house since they were 3-4 years old. It's not about access - it's about teaching your children. If you as a parent are going to possess a firearm in your residence - then teach the rules, reinforce the rules and make sure your children learn the respect for a weapon and human life.

I have four children. A BSN, an Engineer and two moderately autistic teens. We had guns in the home before our special boys arrived. I did the things you discussed with my two neurotypical children. Education. Respect. The guns (two hunting rifles) were locked and secured and they had no access. Then my beautiful special boys came. There are no guns anymore. Lol. We lock up kitchen knives. Hell ...we lock up shampoo, detergents, caustic substances and scissors. We keep the microwave locked. We have locks for the stove. They have still found way to get to these things. Ugh

Impulsive kids with disabilities or behavioral problems are a totally different ballgame. Imho

Imho

 

[Simply Southern]

When a child is not neurotypical and needs extra support, there are two avenues - the child remains in a mainstream school or the child will be sent to a specialist school. FAPE (the right to a free and appropriate education under the Americans with Disabilities Act) means that the aim is for a disabled child to have as 'normal' for lack of a better word education as possible. So the aim is to keep as many children in a classroom as possible but with a support system that enables this. A support system can mean pull-out academic support, social workers, school psychiatrist, an inclusion classroom with a second teacher with a special ed background, an aide for the student or other things. In many cases this works great. Of course the more adequately funded a school is, the better it works. Sometimes it doesn't work. Then the kid will be sent to a specialist school that can handle the kid's needs better. But this out-of-district placement is expensive and the school district has to pay for it. I live in an East Coast state with one of the best schools in the country and the highest property taxes and an out of district placement could easily be $100k for the year. So the school districts often try to argue that it is not necessary.

My child has a learning disability (and is getting great IEP services that are so supportive that it looks like they will learn the skills to operate without supports by the time they graduate high school so we are a real success story of a well funded system) so I can't really speak to behavioral aspects of the IEP system, only the academic side.

But it appears from what I have gleaned over the years that IEP students with underlying behavioral issues will get sent to talk to the social worker when they act out in class. That is step one. We have a child with fetal alcohol syndrome in the neighborhood and he was not able to function in a regular classroom. When he set fire to the school bathroom in elementary school, he was then placed out of district. My guess is that something needs to happen for the school district to take that action. So it appears you go through a system of escalation. But this is a system that is well funded and supportive. It appears that things are not like that in Newport News.

As to the parent in the classroom, I have never heard of that either. The only explanation/theory I have is that with staff shortages, the parent acted as aide because the school district was unable to hire one.

I hope this explains the IEP system a little bit. The student will have had an IEP. 504 plans are 'merely' adjustments to help you function during the day. For example, if you are blind the 504 plan will entitle you to books in Braille. Or if you have ADHD, you can get extra time on exams or preferential seating where you can concentrate better. I hope this makes sense.

You are a wonderful mother, very supportive. You know the system well.

Many children do not receive the intensive attention and care they need due to cost shifting and/or lack family support. In many of our Virginia school systems we no longer have alternate school. This changed 6 or 7 years ago and the focus was to mainstream children and add support systems. This may work well for some, but does not meet the need of many.

We have disbanded many of our residential/training centers and mental hospitals and moved to in home care. Those without strong and diligent family support do not success.

I commend your efforts for your child!!

All my opinion

 

[Laughing]

Just wondering what/ how the Real Estate Market in Newport News is doing. Have listings gone up through the roof? Because, if I had a school aged child there, or taught in a school there,
I would be 'Flying Like An Eagle'.
No way would I tempt fate again, with that system.
MOO

Well, as long as our Navy is there -- the real estate market is protected.

I was told by an administrator of a Lutheran school that you can tell the quality of public schools near a military base by the number & quality of private schools.

At that time, the Lutheran school in Pensacola, Florida was thriving & had a high percentage of non-parishioners enrolled.

A moment with Google shows that there are 2 Pre-K -8th grade Lutheran schools in Newport News; Catholic schools include at least one high school

Roughly a million students are enrolled in Lutheran education in the US btw.

YMMV of course.

 

[fred&edna]

I wonder how much money the school administrators were earning... the one/s who refused to heed warnings?

'Sometimes it doesn't matter how much tax payers have to turn over in the name of public education... it appears the money is often wasted.

And, who holds them responsible for bad action/inaction??

 

[mickey2942]

Private school for children with behavioral issues, is usually day treatment or residential treatment, specialized services provided by staff trained to deal with kids who are unsafe in a neighborhood school environment. Unsafe for other children, and staff.

The school district provides payment, Medicaid, other private insurance pays for the specialized services.

 

[fred&edna]

I have four children. A BSN, an Engineer and two moderately autistic teens. We had guns in the home before our special boys arrived. I did the things you discussed with my two neurotypical children. Education. Respect. The guns (two hunting rifles) were locked and secured and they had no access. Then my beautiful special boys came. There are no guns anymore. Lol. We lock up kitchen knives. Hell ...we lock up shampoo, detergents, caustic substances and scissors. We keep the microwave locked. We have locks for the stove. They have still found way to get to these things. Ugh

Impulsive kids with disabilities or behavioral problems are a totally different ballgame. Imho

Imho

I completely understand if you do not want to answer. Did any of your children ever threaten anyone with physical harm? Do you happen to know if neurotypical includes what has been described as "acutely disabled"?

 

[YepperBepper]

I completely understand if you do not want to answer. Did any of your children ever threaten anyone with physical harm? Do you happen to know if neurotypical includes what has been described as "acutely disabled"?

My kids are predominantly socially nonverbal, with the exception of scripting and expressing wants and needs. They have never threatened anyone. They have harmed me and themselves. Biting me. Hitting themselves. This happened much more often when they were younger and unable to communicate. They are impulsive, at times they don't understand the consequence of actions but don't have the cognitive ability nor the disposition to preplan attacks. They are very gentle men, with rare outbursts these days. They are also very vulnerable. One has been injured in the classroom by an emotionally disturbed child. That's a sad long story.

Anywhere I've ever seen reference to acutely disabled referred to someone with a persistent and severe mental illness with underlying criteria.

All imho

 

[fred&edna]

My kids are predominantly socially nonverbal, with the exception of scripting and expressing wants and needs. They have never threatened anyone. They have harmed me and themselves. Biting me. Hitting themselves. This happened much more often when they were younger and unable to communicate. They are impulsive, at times they don't understand the consequence of actions but don't have the cognitive ability nor the disposition to preplan attacks. They are very gentle men, with rare outbursts these days. They are also very vulnerable. One has been injured in the classroom by an emotionally disturbed child. That's a sad long story.

Anywhere I've ever seen reference to acutely disabled referred to someone with a persistent and severe mental illness with underlying criteria.

All imho

I really appreciate you sharing your personal insight and experiences. Finally, did your nonverbal sons have mainstream education in public schools? If so, did they have assistants helping? And, I assume understanding classmates/teachers??

Thank you!

 

[YepperBepper]

Private school for children with behavioral issues, is usually day treatment or residential treatment, specialized services provided by staff trained to deal with kids who are unsafe in a neighborhood school environment. Unsafe for other children, and staff.

The school district provides payment, Medicaid, other private insurance pays for the specialized services.

Yes. That said, if you are not on Medicaid, residential is limited, unless you can afford out of pocket payment once insurance stops paying. Insurance companies deny these types of things often as not medically necessary...and most limit the days they will pay for. In my state (pa) kids qualify for Medicaid based on diagnosis. I don't think all states are like that and some have income requirements, but I may be wrong. There is no reference to disabled or seniors being eligible for coverage for Virginia and it appears to be solely income based?:

A state-by-state guide to Medicaid: Do I qualify?

Medicaid is about to get harder to follow. Here's a state-by-state guide to who is eligible for the federal- and state-sponsored health insurance program.

www.policygenius.com

I have read news articles pertaining to people who mortgaged their homes or quit their jobs and spent down their assets so the could qualify for Medicaid to get their kids placement.

We are very lucky. Our private school is a Catholic multi- disabilities school. It's very small. A teacher to student ratio that is every teachers dream. Very few behavior kids....they generally didn't stay long and it seemed to be a last resort or stop before residential placement. Our population at this school tends to be vulnerable. CP. IDD. Nonverbal autism. Downs.

I really appreciate you sharing your personal insight and experiences. Finally, did your nonverbal sons have mainstream education in public schools? If so, did they have assistants helping? And, I assume understanding classmates/teachers??

Thank you!

Private school for multidisabilities. Full day Therapeutic Staff with each. As the years have gone by, the hours were titrated down based on behaviors decreasing. They generally only need one on one on outings, now....for safety purposes, as neither have safety awareness.

Imho

 

[Nanceedroo]

How does a 6-year-old child form intent?

I think they mean that the child aimed at the teacher and shot her.

 

[mickey2942]

@YepperBepper true. People eligible for Medicaid, or the very wealthy can get expensive treatment for their children. And often school districts will pay for the fees, if there is no other alternative, as in this case, I doubt that there is appropriate placement available in this district for this child.

 

[airportwoman]

Violent kids take over schools and have the law on their side

The same laws that protect disabled students make it difficult for schools to remove a student as profoundly disturbed as the Parkland school shooter. Even threatening to shoot classmates is not a lawful reason to expel the child, our investigation found.

projects.sun-sentinel.com

I wish it were that simple!

The link is part 2 of an excellent series about classroom violence in Florida (but increasingly true nationwide). The policies have to change at the state and national level. The school districts have to obey these increasingly convoluted methods for permanently removing a violent child from school to receive specialized education and treatment. Mainstreaming children with disabilities to spend part of the day in a regular classroom is a noble and successful idea dating back to the 1970’s and ‘80’s. But increasing numbers of children with severe psychological disabilities has resulted in mainstreaming gone mad IMO. Sadly, it is not a simple fix.

Yeah, the people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School found that one out the hard way. I believe that deinstitutionalization is a big factor in all of this.

One wonders if this was a case of administration neglecting to do anything because they wanted to see what would happen. People have done stranger things.

 

[airportwoman]

@YepperBepper true. People eligible for Medicaid, or the very wealthy can get expensive treatment for their children. And often school districts will pay for the fees, if there is no other alternative, as in this case, I doubt that there is appropriate placement available in this district for this child.

Middle-class parents whose children need this level of care often have to surrender custody of them over to the state in order for Medicaid to pay for it, which has GOT to be beyond a difficult decision.

Like I've said elsewhere here, there was such a facility in my neighborhood when I was growing up, and higher-functioning students went to school with us. One thing that NEVER changed was that no matter how smart they were, they always performed several grade levels behind where they should have. This was in the 1970s, and most of these kids had been in foster care most, if not all, of their lives, but there are two who really stand out who were not only mildly intellectually impaired, but probably also on the autistic spectrum.

 

[airportwoman]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> At different times in the 1990s, my brother and his wife lived in Houston, TX and Kansas City, and in both cities, they met TEACHERS who homeschooled! The public schools were really that bad, and private school were expensive, had long waiting lists, and/or were no better. They knew they didn't want to raise their future children there, that's for sure.

One of their children had to be home-schooled for a while because of some sensory processing issues, so they understand.

 

[Lilibet]

What does that even mean? We shouldnt properly diagnose out children?

Ignoring it doesnt make it go away.

If you read my post, I praised mainstreaming as noble and successful in its original intent to provide children with disabilities access to a regular classroom for part of the day. I was clear that my point about “mainstreaming gone mad” had to do with children who had been diagnosed with severe and often violent behavioral issues and that the laws prevented them from being easily removed from the regular classroom. That was not the original purpose of mainstreaming. I said nothing about not properly diagnosing our children and ignoring the issue. I’m not sure how you got that from what I wrote.

What do you mean "mainstreaming has gone mad?"

Should we just not diagnose children with things they have, or work to accommodate those with disabilities?

Again…???

I guess I misunderstood your comment of "Mainstreaming has gone mad" as a criticism of modern diagnosis's for kids.

Yes you did misunderstand. To make sure it’s clear, mainstreaming only refers to children who already have been diagnosed with a disability (blind, deaf, wheelchair-bound, ADHD, autistic, etc). The purpose of mainstreaming was/is to include these children who need specialized education in a regular classroom for at least part of the day, and not be isolated.

But when the policy of mainstreaming is applied to children with severe behavioral problems (including violence), it is “mainstreaming gone mad” IMO. The red tape involved in removing highly disruptive children from a regular classroom is such that they remain there to traumatize and endanger the other students and the teacher. And THAT is “Mainstreaming gone mad”!! MOO

Again, I highly recommend the series of articles from the Florida Sun-Sentinel for an in-depth discussion of this issue. It’s linked in one of my posts you replied to.

Hope this helps clarify my use of the expression “mainstreaming gone mad.” I didn’t mean to be confusing or imply that mainstreaming is a bad idea.

 

[Lilibet]

Yeah, the people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School found that one out the hard way. I believe that deinstitutionalization is a big factor in all of this.

One wonders if this was a case of administration neglecting to do anything because they wanted to see what would happen. People have done stranger things.

In my long life (the same age as Dolly Parton but not as cute ), I’ve observed that well-meaning efforts by the government to solve problems often result in a multitude of unforeseen problems that are extremely difficult to solve. Deinstitutionalization is a case in point. There were terrible abuses in mental health institutions. But the noble goal of serving the mentally ill in local communities has not succeeded and so they wander the streets unhoused, in large cities and in my small town of 22,000. Or in cases like Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, Nikolas Cruz shoots up a school. All of which is to say that there are no simple fixes, and each fix creates its own problems.

As to why the administration neglected to deal with the threat this six year old presented that day, I’m not sure it was because they wanted to see what would happen. I think it was partly that they didn’t believe there was a gun or that anything would actually happen. And as my retired teacher husband pointed out, searching the child could bring on a lawsuit. So could calling the police if there was even a whiff of abuse on the part of LE. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have done those things, but the mindset is to be very careful. What if you’re wrong? Bye bye job. It’s too bad no one was willing to take the risk and let the lawsuit or job loss chips fall where they may. It would only have taken one brave person.
JMO

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Then my beautiful special boys came. There are no guns anymore. Lol. We lock up kitchen knives. Hell ...we lock up shampoo,

Quote RSBM.
Thank you for sharing. People who say, "My kids were taught not to touch our guns" might not see what this type of case is really about IMHO.

We have some dangerous things (knives, meds...) locked up in our home, too, but for a different reason; one child has threatened self harm. A gun would never be in our home, no matter how many locks there could be. It's painful to have an emotionally unstable child, but when you do, you can't just teach the impulses and threats away. I wish everyone "got" this.

 

[sandy_80]

so far my cousins severely disabled boy ( a very rare syndrome ) has shown aggression only at home and not in school or at strangers ...but he was attacked savagely by another boy with a more severe case
it depends on what kind of disability they are talking about

 

[alex dvport]

Yeah, the people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School found that one out the hard way. I believe that deinstitutionalization is a big factor in all of this.

One wonders if this was a case of administration neglecting to do anything because they wanted to see what would happen. People have done stranger things.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but are you suggesting that admin failed to act because they wanted to see if the child would shoot at and potentially kill other children and staff? If that is your suggestion, then …