VA - Bethany Stephens, 21, mauled to death by her 2 dogs, Dec 2017

[Bernina]

There is a reason that other countries have banned or have restricted ownership of some dogs. I know that the US has a huge population and therefore a huge number of these dogs, but when you have the same dogs involved in fatal or near fatal attacks, you have to think about why?
You cannot depend just on people being responsible owners when some are clearly not.

The US is about "consumerism" and the "newest accessory". Advertising and people in the limelight make trends. Whether it's a well known celebrity with a specific dog breed in their purse, an ad for fabric softener with another specific breed, or just "keeping up with the Joneses", it's generally "I want, I gotta have".

"Shinyitist" with fur. And without forethought.

We have a lot of freedom in this country, I just believe they were meant for people who had common sense and responsibility......

 

[rsd1200]

I'm sorry if it seems like blaming the victim. I get that. I know that from my perspective I always try to teach about the human error part to these events because it's the only thing that can prevent it in the future. Animals cannot reason in the same way we do, and ultimately it's the choices we make about them that leads to whatever outcome is going to happen. We decide whether they are born or not, whether they are adopted or not, what kind of housing, training, food they get, etc.

Understand that when I say human error is behind most of these cases, I sometimes mean just a human error in communication or understanding. That does not mean anyone deserves to be attacked or that there was abuse happening. But the only way to prevent attacks is to understand what went wrong.

When that little Benji dog got hold of me and nearly slit my wrist, I did not deserve it! But it happened due to human error. It happened because I failed to recognize how he was communicating with me, and because I was being impatient at the time. I have effed up a few times and honestly sometimes I think I am lucky to be alive, given how big most of the dogs were that I rescued. So her situation hits very close to home for me.

I also think about what she would think of this thread, because I can see myself in her. We can't know. Maybe she would hate pit bulls now. But I suspect she would probably just tell us what happened, what signs she missed, and would probably want people to be more educated about handling their dogs. I can imagine her saying it was a mistake to take Pac-man, in particular. I'm guessing her heart said yes, but she gets no do-over on that mistake, and that is sad.

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This is O/T but, human (my) error, a TWH mare I had at one time, was very high strung, and I knew all the signs while riding her, (had to be on constant alert, no fun to ride at all), but she was a sweetie on the ground. She had a foal, and I had a run-in for them, all ready. The foal was high-headed, a big guy! He was having trouble finding the teat, b/c he was so big and lanky. So, I had to help him. I should have known to tie Momma, but she was never high strung on the ground, (but this was her first baby). I went around to help the foal find the teat and she whipped her head around and bit me on the shoulder and nearly tore my shirt off! I wasn't especially surprised, b/c she was a new mom. My mistake. I went and got a tie and tied her short, got the foal to nursing and all was good. I didn't get much damage other than bad bruising b/c my bite was a warning bite, and I was so focused on the foal, I'd not noticed her little side-steps, and huffing, til AFTER she bit me. However, my friend, who knew nothing about horses at all, lost most of the muscle in her arm due to messing with a stud horse, who was focused on a mare in heat, in the stall near him...

 

[keeleydoll]

Giant snails are a danger to wildlife in the fact that if they escape they can eat large amounts of local crops and reproduce by themselves. I think thats a little different.
Im not sure if im having problems trying to explain myself.... its nothing to do with 'large dogs' its pitbulls.
This and ONLY this breed im referring to originate from England and were 'made' to fight in pits. Hence Pit Bull. I am not going to post again. Maybe the attacks are drop in the ocean in a large country like the USA but here in the UK its a high statistic for such a small country.
I think that is extremely petty trying to be sarky comparing it to a snail. This poor girl lost her life and your petty remarks are unjust. These dogs (can be) lethal and im not debating it any more. Statistics prove this and hopefully others might learn from this thread. I feel for this poor girls family.

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Wow. I was just being silly, one of my kids recently got interested in the snails and I found out that they are not allowed in the US and why. I’m not sure why you are getting “petty” from this. Didn’t mean any offense.


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[rsd1200]

There is a reason that other countries have banned or have restricted ownership of some dogs. I know that the US has a huge population and therefore a huge number of these dogs, but when you have the same dogs involved in fatal or near fatal attacks, you have to think about why?
You cannot depend just on people being responsible owners when some are clearly not.

I gotta agree. Idk why anyone would take the risk. Had my husband's dog not been there that day, that pit was coming in straight at him, not our dog, him, and my husband is 6' so he's not a little guy, but 50-60 pounds of teeth and hair hits you, you're gonna have a problem. The guy had a fenced place for them, they'd NEVER gotten loose before, the owner seemed like a nice guy, he was able to get his dog to release it's grip on our dog's collar (we teach our dogs the "release" command too), and he said, while he lived there, he had no more trouble, BUT, all it took was one time. My husband said he never walked down that part of the road again. I don't hate the breed, but it's like my mare, she was zero fun to ride and train, b/c she was just high strung, and I feel had been trained improperly to begin with, possibly harshly and that's me making excuses for her. I didn't even want to sell her. I was afraid someone would get hurt. I even enlisted the help of a high profile trainer, in our region, and he thought I was doing something wrong and he could "fix" her. He took her on, and then flat out told me, "she's dangerous". I managed to find the person who had originally had her sire, and her 1/2 brother. I told them her history, but that she threw beautiful foals, would they like her for a brood mare. They said, oh yes! How much?! They came from out of state to get her and and I gave her to them. Free of charge, with all of her history. They said she'd mostly be a pasture pet, and that was ALL she was good for (except if you wanted a gorgeous foal) .

 

[Vedder]

Someone I grew up with breeds them, and I can't understand it. I tried talking sense into her, educating her about how many are in shelters. I asked her why, if she was doing it because she loved the breed, she didn't focus on rescuing instead. She claimed she would reserve a kennel spot for rescues, and then months later I saw her advertising one of her own pits for free on Facebook because she had a health issue and couldn't breed her. At that point I had to just hide her from my news feed. She doesn't love pits, she loves the money she's making off these dogs. And she still hasn't rescued a single one.

RSBM & BBM

This is how unscrupulous people get a hold of animals to train to fight or use as bait. I wish I could save them all. Makes me sick.

 

[Stanly]

I think our countries have very different ideas of what constitutes real freedom and healthy society. You'll find the same issue with gun ownership in the US. It makes no sense, and we are willing to put our lives and every one else's lives at risk by having them for the sake of being able to claim "freedom." I don't understand it, myself. You must think we're all crazy over here!

Haha yeah [emoji6] freedom is limited here in many areas but the US is such a vast place and i guess rules vary from state to state.



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[rsd1200]

Haha yeah [emoji6] freedom is limited here in many areas but the US is such a vast place and i guess rules vary from state to state.

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O/T States' Rights, are what they're called. Each of our states have the right to pass, enforce, and interpret, their own laws.

 

[Stanly]

I understand. I would never own one, personally. I've seen how, otherwise perfectly normal dog owners, in the past, who got one, and it went south, and they were just totally surprised. Thankfully, no humans were killed. I do think that what they were bred to do originally, and still are being bred to do, has a lot to do with this, for lack of a better word, phenomena. Pits, unlike most other dogs, don't seem to give any signs, to the person who is fixing to be attacked, or is witnessing an attack, on another animal. "It came out of nowhere!" Is the standard statement. My husband was in his yard or in front of it, with our GSD. Our GSD was one of the large, old-fashioned GSDs. None of this hip sloping stuff they do today. I digress, my husband was out near the road in front of his home, at the time, and out of nowhere the neighbor's pit showed up, making a bee line, straight at him. Our GSD, rolled up between them, and with his body weight,rolled the Pit, and engaged him, until, the pit backed off and ran back home. Again, our GSD was very big, and in excellent shape, at the time. However, many times dogs will give a various signs before biting;

1) Some dogs will yawn, and lick their lips (more than once). They are uncomfortable with a situation.
2) Eye contact: Avoidance of eye contact. Could be a more timid dog and a fear biter. Fear biters usually cower, and tuck their tails. Direct eye contact is a more dominant dog, and usually goes along with #3, below.
3) Erect, slowly wagging tail, body still/stiff. (If a dog is happy, their whole body wags), direct eye contact.
4) Hackles raised. Big sign that a dog is unhappy and may bite. (Hackles = fur along neck behind head to withers).
5) If you see the whites of a dog's,(or horse's), eyes, they are anxious and uncomfortable and can lash out.
6) Growl and/or show of teeth. (Obvious)


https://stories.barkpost.com/bite-prevention/

https://www.thespruce.com/signs-a-dog-may-bite-1118537

How scary! Thank you for the info re: warning signs and body language [emoji4] its good to know some basics at least and ive never thought about it before.

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[jamicat]

The question that comes up in my mind is at what danger point should there be a ban on the cause of that danger? Also, a definition of what that danger is needs to be established.

I find that the statistics for pitbulls are way off because of the type of breeding and owners that these dogs have. A cursory glance at the adopted pit mixes at our shelter alone does not match up with that type of dog being registered or to them being patients at the vets.

More than half the dogs we own are mutts. Pitts are dominating the Mutt field. Yet I see stats as low as 3-6% for pit mixes in this country. Something is not right with these numbers

I was at a vaccination clinic one weekend where vaccines and a quick routine check up were offered at half price or less. 50 something dogs at the clinic. Only two pitbulls mixed that I could visually discern. In an area where there are many pitbulls.

However, the county despite this large number of pitbulls also has not had any severe pitbull attacks on humans. Or of any dog for that matter in the last 10 years. Dog on dog attacks, police reported, yes, and the pits dominate there. However, the stray dog ownership, along with other behaviors of negligent and sbisive iwnership ate heavily concentrated among pit owners. No question, that this breed in my area has a hard life in terms of care from owners. Under represented in licensing, medical care, too many stray and left chained in yard , too many with owners with so many other problems that these people are not caring well for selves much less for their dogs.

If Bethany had raised two German Shepards or Wolf HoundS or Labs as comfortable indie dogs and then left them in solitary confinement the way she did, would the outcome have been less likely?

My initial concern with this story was about the possibility that another human was involved in Bethany’s death and the grisley feeding on her body by her dogs might have covered up the initial injuries. LE’s stupid statements, some of them turning out to be not true, did not dispel that possibility. However that Bethany had a full autopsy, should have. If no other injuries to her were possible prior to the dogs attacking her, and the cause of death clearly those dog attacks, then another person being responsible is not a viable theory.

I was repulsed and think lowly of LE for thinking that releasing gruesome info, namely that the dogs were eating her has any relevance in substantiating that the dogs killed. One has nothing to do with the other. The dogs could have done the feeding without having been the culprits in the killing. All that info did was turn the case immediately into tabloid fodder even worse than it was.

 

[Trident]

The question that comes up in my mind is at what danger point should there be a ban on the cause of that danger? Also, a definition of what that danger is needs to be established.

I find that the statistics for pitbulls are way off because of the type of breeding and owners that these dogs have. A cursory glance at the adopted pit mixes at our shelter alone does not match up with that type of dog being registered or to them being patients at the vets.

More than half the dogs we own are mutts. Pitts are dominating the Mutt field. Yet I see stats as low as 3-6% for pit mixes in this country. Something is not right with these numbers

I was at a vaccination clinic one weekend where vaccines and a quick routine check up were offered at half price or less. 50 something dogs at the clinic. Only two pitbulls mixed that I could visually discern. In an area where there are many pitbulls.

However, the county despite this large number of pitbulls also has not had any severe pitbull attacks on humans. Or of any dog for that matter in the last 10 years. Dog on dog attacks, police reported, yes, and the pits dominate there. However, the stray dog ownership, along with other behaviors of negligent and sbisive iwnership ate heavily concentrated among pit owners. No question, that this breed in my area has a hard life in terms of care from owners. Under represented in licensing, medical care, too many stray and left chained in yard , too many with owners with so many other problems that these people are not caring well for selves much less for their dogs.

If Bethany had raised two German Shepards or Wolf HoundS or Labs as comfortable indie dogs and then left them in solitary confinement the way she did, would the outcome have been less likely?

My initial concern with this story was about the possibility that another human was involved in Bethany’s death and the grisley feeding on her body by her dogs might have covered up the initial injuries. LE’s stupid statements, some of them turning out to be not true, did not dispel that possibility. However that Bethany had a full autopsy, should have. If no other injuries to her were possible prior to the dogs attacking her, and the cause of death clearly those dog attacks, then another person being responsible is not a viable theory.

I was repulsed and think lowly of LE for thinking that releasing gruesome info, namely that the dogs were eating her has any relevance in substantiating that the dogs killed. One has nothing to do with the other. The dogs could have done the feeding without having been the culprits in the killing. All that info did was turn the case immediately into tabloid fodder even worse than it was.

What is it about this case that makes you reject the idea her pitbulls killed her? There are multitudes of pitbulls attacks, thoroughly documented, that prove these dogs WILL and DO attack their owners. Anyone can go on the 'net and find case after case where they HAVE done just that. Maybe they were also FEEDING on the body, but LE didn't want to, or had no need to be so graphic. We don't know this.

What EXACTLY, about this case makes you question the truth of her dogs attacking and killing her? Was it the "friend" whom I haven't read anything about since. Has anyone else questioned the facts? EXACTLY why are LE being vilified and convolutions being made to exonerate the pittbull dogs? Don't you believe pittbulls attacks? What? I'm at a loss here.

 

[Stanly]

What is it about this case that makes you reject the idea her pitbulls killed her? There are multitudes of pitbulls attacks, thoroughly documented, that prove these dogs WILL and DO attack their owners. Anyone can go on the 'net and find case after case where they HAVE done just that. Maybe they were also FEEDING on the body, but LE didn't want to, or had no need to be so graphic. We don't know this.

What EXACTLY, about this case makes you question the truth of her dogs attacking and killing her? Was it the "friend" whom I haven't read anything about since. Has anyone else questioned the facts? EXACTLY why are LE being vilified and convolutions being made to exonerate the pittbull dogs? Don't you believe pittbulls attacks? What? I'm at a loss here.

I cannot get my head around it either. These attacks happen here often. To put it bluntly, the victim is attacked and sometimes killed, the dog/dogs are destroyed and thats it. The lesson is learnt not to own a banned dog. I cant understand why there are these conspiracy theories about cover ups for a human murderer. This case is very clear cut. Girl takes 3 dangerous dogs for a walk and they attack her. This girl had a big heart and clearly wanted those dogs but these dogs should be banned all round. They are MADE to fight. They are made from a mix of breeds, its in their blood. I am glad the warning signs were posted above to help people with warning signs and i will be taking these on board with other peoples dogs but my same point i keep trying to make is WHY would you have a dog if you have to look out for these warning signs. What a life to live! I respect peoples opinions but its so frustrating that people can be naive enough to think there 'loving soft harmless pitbull' can be any different.



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[2Hope4]

I gotta agree. Idk why anyone would take the risk. Had my husband's dog not been there that day, that pit was coming in straight at him, not our dog, him, and my husband is 6' so he's not a little guy, but 50-60 pounds of teeth and hair hits you, you're gonna have a problem. The guy had a fenced place for them, they'd NEVER gotten loose before, the owner seemed like a nice guy, he was able to get his dog to release it's grip on our dog's collar (we teach our dogs the "release" command too), and he said, while he lived there, he had no more trouble, BUT, all it took was one time. My husband said he never walked down that part of the road again. I don't hate the breed, but it's like my mare, she was zero fun to ride and train, b/c she was just high strung, and I feel had been trained improperly to begin with, possibly harshly and that's me making excuses for her. I didn't even want to sell her. I was afraid someone would get hurt. I even enlisted the help of a high profile trainer, in our region, and he thought I was doing something wrong and he could "fix" her. He took her on, and then flat out told me, "she's dangerous". I managed to find the person who had originally had her sire, and her 1/2 brother. I told them her history, but that she threw beautiful foals, would they like her for a brood mare. They said, oh yes! How much?! They came from out of state to get her and and I gave her to them. Free of charge, with all of her history. They said she'd mostly be a pasture pet, and that was ALL she was good for (except if you wanted a gorgeous foal) .

Brief rant and I promise to shut up then! Do NOT breed a horse that has a behavioral or physical problem. It's no different than breeding dogs with a violent disposition, or hip disorder Genetics exist All you're doing is passing on bad genetics to yet another foal/puppy/kitten... Breeders should strive to breed the best of the best in order to BETTER that breed, not make it worse. End Rant

 

[2Hope4]

Yes I know you are sincere and I have appreciated your posts in this thread very much. I can tell you are a genuine animal lover and I respect what you do for animals. I’m sure what you do is not easy and can be very emotional.

I just feel like Bethany’s murder is being downplayed in a sense, or maybe that she’s being blamed (for adopting the dog who had been aggressive, leaving the dogs at her dads, etc), because others have had different experiences with pit bulls. I truly don’t think people would be as supportive of a murderer if it was an abused child who killed another child as they are towards the dogs who murdered Bethany. It’s hard for me to ignore the statistics regarding pit bulls. I guess I’m biased, but I’ve never been on a thread where people defend the murderers the way they are on this one.

ETA - it also just seems like the thread is a debate about animals and completely derailed from Bethany’s murder. The same way some threads get derailed with heated gun control debates. I just think it’d be more appropriate to have a thread to discuss dog specific issues, so people can share their own experiences and opinions without it being at the expense of a dead young woman.

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I can understand why you feel that way. IMO, people in general like to be able to say "this and this" contributed to the murder, tragedy, etc, and if I avoid "this and this" it won't happen to me. I don't think it's necessarily meant to blame the victim, but a subconscious effort to avoid that same tragedy.

Does that make sense?

 

[Trident]

I can understand why you feel that way. IMO, people in general like to be able to say "this and this" contributed to the murder, tragedy, etc, and if I avoid "this and this" it won't happen to me. I don't think it's necessarily meant to blame the victim, but a subconscious effort to avoid that same tragedy.

Does that make sense?

Makes perfect sense. We all want to feel "special". Take a look at those who have a close affinity to lions and tigers and snakes - oh my! They all want to feel they can tame the wild beast, become that ONE, special person in it's life. But we can't. We aren't animals, we don't have their life experiences or genetics. In the end, a great many "special" people ended up dead, some were eaten. This leads me to believe animals don't have the same feelings we do. I've seen documentaries where lionesses would eat their own dead cubs, whether for the protein or making it a part of them - you are what you eat.

It's always easier to blame someone or something else to mitigate your own stupidity - yes, stupidity, and that's what I think all of those who "play around", like Bethany did are guilty of. I've read some forums by pittbull breeders. They make no bones about the traits, good or bad, about the breed. They are realists. Today's back-yard, emotional owners, have no idea what they are playing with, nor do they have any idea what they are subjecting our pets and ourselves to.

Sometimes (God forbid I said this) I feel the serious breeders, trainers, should be allowed to fight their dogs in a controlled environment. That IS what these dogs are bred for. If not, get RID of the breed because they serve no other function that I can see. I know this won't be popular, but it makes sense to me. These dogs LOVE to fight and kill. That IS what they were bred for.

My opinion, of course.

 

[CrimeDawg123]

Brief rant and I promise to shut up then! Do NOT breed a horse that has a behavioral or physical problem. It's no different than breeding dogs with a violent disposition, or hip disorder Genetics exist All you're doing is passing on bad genetics to yet another foal/puppy/kitten... Breeders should strive to breed the best of the best in order to BETTER that breed, not make it worse. End Rant

Slightly OT but since you brought up horses that reminded me of a spectacular documentary called "Buck". He encountered an extremely violent and disturbed horse - the preeminent 'horse whisperer' basically said this horse was beyond repair. It was eye opening.

 

[Trident]

Slightly OT but since you brought up horses that reminded me of a spectacular documentary called "Buck". He encountered an extremely violent and disturbed horse - the preeminent 'horse whisperer' basically said this horse was beyond repair. It was eye opening.

I have seen horse behavior in person. I have seen people "trying" to load horses into van - it wasn't pretty. Often I stood behind a tree 'cause I've seen it all before and it was a dangerous situation. One day I say a man from Texas or Oklahoma, not sure, load a "problematic" horse within seconds. No fight, no nothing. Amazing. VERY impressive. I do believe some people have a special bond or knowledge with/about animals. My question is, does it work with dogs? And, if so, does it work when a dog goes to a new, non-whispering owner? Would it work on a pittbull and all the subsequent owners? Is anyone willing to risk their life on that?

I hate to see death for anything, BUT if it comes them vs me and my loved ones, I choose ME and my loved ones.

:cow:

 

[rsd1200]

Brief rant and I promise to shut up then! Do NOT breed a horse that has a behavioral or physical problem. It's no different than breeding dogs with a violent disposition, or hip disorder Genetics exist All you're doing is passing on bad genetics to yet another foal/puppy/kitten... Breeders should strive to breed the best of the best in order to BETTER that breed, not make it worse. End Rant

Had she been inbred, or had crazy breeding in her history, I'd have never bred her. She had beautiful lineage. I consulted with the breeder, and she'd never thrown a foal, so I tried for one.

The reason I thought it was not breeding, in her particular case, was because I found that she'd been broke with either a barbed bit. That's a bit with barbed wire wrapped around it, or just a straight wire bit (which is what it is, just wire, no "bit"). I found this out through having my equine vet come out to check her teeth to see if something was wrong there, because her behaviour only occurred under saddle.

He found during the check, that her tongue had almost been sliced in two, and had a deep fissure about the size of a No.2 pencil, all the way across. Because of her sweetheart ground manners, and excellent TWH lineage, I really felt it was the abuse, and it messed with her head, when she was bridled and saddled. She just could not get past it.

Her foal was a treat to ground break, well gaited, gentle as a lamb, but as an adult stud, he didn't like other adult studs. That was his only vice that I was ever told about, by the friend who bought him, and if you've ever been in a barn with stud horses, that's a pretty common problem, especially if there's mares in heat.

The folks who had her sire, I left any future breedings, for a foal of their own, up to them. You can't spay a mare (well, I guess you could, but I couldn't afford that). I thoroughly inundated them with everything I knew of her history. The were experienced with her line and said they'd never known of one to have behaviour issues like that, and felt it was, what the vet found. Last they sent me a pic, she was a pasture pet.

She was on point on manners, when I tried her out for an hour long trail ride, the day I bought her (she'd been drugged), or I'd not bought her in the first place. Otherwise, I agree, don't breed horses with bad breeding and who are inherently mean natured.

 

[rsd1200]

I have seen horse behavior in person. I have seen people "trying" to load horses into van - it wasn't pretty. Often I stood behind a tree 'cause I've seen it all before and it was a dangerous situation. One day I say a man from Texas or Oklahoma, not sure, load a "problematic" horse within seconds. No fight, no nothing. Amazing. VERY impressive. I do believe some people have a special bond or knowledge with/about animals. My question is, does it work with dogs? And, if so, does it work when a dog goes to a new, non-whispering owner? Would it work on a pittbull and all the subsequent owners? Is anyone willing to risk their life on that?

I hate to see death for anything, BUT if it comes them vs me and my loved ones, I choose ME and my loved ones.

:cow:

I've always been good with animals of all kinds. I'd bought this mare for a saddle mare. My gelding at the time, had passed (and is buried beside my house). She loaded, walked on lead, nuzzled, did all the things that folks wanted from a sweet horse, until, you tacked her up. I've ridden studs that only the owner said only he could ride, so I was not inexperienced, but, I was not looking for another pasture pet, nor a challenge. I'm getting older, I know my limits.

I searched long and hard for a solution for her other than dog food, or euthed and buried on my back lot. Just as Tennessee Walker's are bred, and born, to gait, pitbulls were bred, and born, to fight something. Most all Walkers, are born with that four beat gait, and a beauty of a personality, but some have to be educated to get their walk down, because they are pacey, and some can be stubborn. Arabians are a bit more high strung. Part of my family bred them, and part bred Walkers. I had an Arab pony out of a grand champion Arab sire, crossed with a pure bred Shetland (he was an oops). Lots of fun and very fast! But ya had to watch him, or off his back you'd go (he's laid to rest on the back of the farm). We got him as a two year old and he passed, on the farm, at 30. Yes, some folks have tried to take the non aggressive pits, and start new lines, but then you have these XL breeders that are making them into giants, with attitudes.

 

[rsd1200]

I cannot get my head around it either. These attacks happen here often. To put it bluntly, the victim is attacked and sometimes killed, the dog/dogs are destroyed and thats it. The lesson is learnt not to own a banned dog. I cant understand why there are these conspiracy theories about cover ups for a human murderer. This case is very clear cut. Girl takes 3 dangerous dogs for a walk and they attack her. This girl had a big heart and clearly wanted those dogs but these dogs should be banned all round. They are MADE to fight. They are made from a mix of breeds, its in their blood. I am glad the warning signs were posted above to help people with warning signs and i will be taking these on board with other peoples dogs but my same point i keep trying to make is WHY would you have a dog if you have to look out for these warning signs. What a life to live! I respect peoples opinions but its so frustrating that people can be naive enough to think there 'loving soft harmless pitbull' can be any different.



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No one ever thinks it will be them, or their dog, or their child, etc... but, yes, they were made to fight.

 

[enelram]

Slightly OT but since you brought up horses that reminded me of a spectacular documentary called "Buck". He encountered an extremely violent and disturbed horse - the preeminent 'horse whisperer' basically said this horse was beyond repair. It was eye opening.

I've seen that doc. numerous times in fact I believe I bought it in video. That horse, I believe, was an orphan and stallion
and was raised by an inexperienced owner that treated it like a dog, not a horse. She caused the horse to be an outlaw. Sad for the horse, but it was totally woman-made.