VA - Nicole Lovell, 13, Blacksburg, 27 January 2016 #5 *Arrests*

[Inthedetails]

Ah! Yes! I am hung up on that suitcase comment too: It isn't clear to me if the dad really answered the question. I DVR'd it, and just rewatched that part, and have transcribed it here:

Dr Phil to Dad: "when she left, she took a small suitcase with her."
Dad: (seems to be nodding but did not directly answer the question verbally) "As far as I know, (hesitation) she took a few things with her."
Dr. Phil (cutting in and speaking over dad who is still finishing that above sentence): "But she had a blanket with her"
Dad: "Yes, sir, I know she had the blanket with her"

The go on to discuss the minion blanket, and the fact that she did not leave with her medicine, which it sounded like she received 3 times a day.

So, did she, or did she not have a suitcase with her? A suitcase in my mind, means she WAS planning on running away. But surely she knew that she could not survive without her medicine. Dad seemed to think so. So, why would you bring a suitcase if you were planning on coming home before the next dose? And, Is this the same suitcase in NK's room where the minion blanket and cleaning supplies were found?

Another part in the episode that I am puzzled over is when Dr. Phil was talking to the dad how did he find out she was missing. Dad said the mom called him at 7 a.m, he thinks possibly even before she called the police, after finding Nicole missing and the window open. He said that the mom told the him that the only thing that they knew was Nicole had been in contact with someone named David, and his name is David, so they immediately called him (I assume to rule out that Nicole wasn't over there). So, how did the mom know this???

Thanks for checking. My hunch is that she did NOT take a suitcase but that Dr. Phil was confused about the suitcase in NK's dorm room. I'm going to dismiss the suitcase until we hear better confirmation.

Regarding the Mom knowing a "David" existed....whoa!

 

[QueenBea13]

Marking my spot, going to watch Dr Phil before I catch up!


The thoughts & opinions stated above are that, MY random thoughts & opinions.

 

[Bootsctr]

He does pay. Remember the infamous series of interviews with the Supreme Enablers, aka George and Cindy Anthony? TONS of money.

Unfortunately, yes uke:

 

[Mollyandme]

I'm thinking this is where NK comes in. We could be wrong even assuming that NK knew the full extent of the relationship between DE and NL. DE could have just said this little girl is obsessed with me and won't leave me alone and she is threatening me. NK being who we have seen her to be said let's take care of it.

I agree that this is where NK came in. Based on what we currently know, I think that aside from the obvious fact that you have to be seriously evil to do what these monsters are accused of doing, a reasonable theory at this point is that DE vented to NK about Nicole (either a made up version that she wouldn't leave him alone, or told her the truth that she's 13 and he's worried about being exposed and charged with a sex crime) and asked her advice. NK brought up the idea of murder and over a short period of time convinced him it was the only way to stop Nicole from further contacting him or from exposing their relationship.

I think that DE and NK are both despicable and both fully responsible for Nicole's murder. I do think they both had different motives though. I think DE's motive was to cover up his inappropriate relationship with Nicole and he felt justified in doing so because he is evil and NK probably egged him on with more insane justifications as to why murder was the only choice. I think NK's motive was more of a thrill kill. Thrill killers often feel inadequate deep down and have a very strong need to feel powerful. Planning this murder probably made her feel really important because she was part of this plan with DE, and powerful because she now had the power to choose to end an innocent young girls life in the most violent, in humane way possible. In her own words, she was "excited to be part of something so secretive and special." Excitement is part of thrill killing. She kept the minion blanket so she could relive the murder and fantasize about it which is one reason why many killers keep a "trophy" from their victim. All jmo and subject to change

 

[Tootired]

It's easy to go there, but I truly do not think her parents understood the depth of her involvement in social media. Especially social media.



<modsnip>

I totally agree.

 

[Bootsctr]

Marking my spot, going to watch Dr Phil before I catch up!


The thoughts & opinions stated above are that, MY random thoughts & opinions.

I need to watch Dr. Drew's link... I'm anxious to hear his take.

 

[JanetElaine]

I'm still playing catch-up so forgive me if this has been posted.

Someone in the previous thread asked if anyone had searched for DE and NK's YouTube accounts. DE did not have one that I was able to find, Natalie had one, I posted the link to one of the two videos that were on there - a video she made about unemployment among college graduates.

That video and the entire account have since been 'poofed'.

 

[TsulaNC]

What if DE tricked her and said he had the same medicine, don't take yours or your mom will know something is up. My gut tells me she thought she would be right back, but this is one scenario we haven't thought of.


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[whiskers]

I agree. The medicine is probably kept in a special place and probably in the kitchen. Busy area of a home.

What if DE tricked her and said he had the same medicine, don't take yours or your mom will know something is up. My gut tells me she thought she would be right back, but this is one scenario we haven't thought of.


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[Bootsctr]

Yes, she took a small suitcase, her minion blanket, and her cell phone. Not sure if her father said this or Dr. Phil. It was also said that she had a long sleeved shirt, but why wouldn't Nicole take her winter jacket/coat? It was very cold outside that night. Perhaps she thought she would be back soon so no need to take her coat? I've heard her mother say Nicole's window was ajar, but on Dr. Phil I think they said she left the window open. She most likely did that so she could get back in the same way she went out. Nicole also did not take her anti-rejection meds with her which is another indicator that she was planning on come back before morning.

I wonder if she might have used the suitcase as a step up to crawl in and out the window? I find it hard to believe the father wouldn't know about the suitcase Keepers had??? It sounds like he is blocking out a lot of information about what happened.

 

[Bootsctr]

What if DE tricked her and said he had the same medicine, don't take yours or your mom will know something is up. My gut tells me she thought she would be right back, but this is one scenario we haven't thought of.


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I think she was smarter than that. I have always thought she did not think she would be gone that long.

 

[cujenn81]

Ya know, I just thought about this...

I think it's quite likely that these two lowlife criminals didn't factor NL's medical history--the liver transplant or the need to take her medication on a strict schedule--into their plans. Because LE knew about the transplant, knew that she didn't have her meds, and knew that the risk of a serious and irreversible medical emergency increased with every missed dose, they definitely turned things up a notch (as they should have) and their search was conducted more aggressively, with more publicity, and with more urgency than it might have otherwise.

 

[dita78]

I agree that this is where NK came in. Based on what we currently know, I think that aside from the obvious fact that you have to be seriously evil to do what these monsters are accused of doing, a reasonable theory at this point is that DE vented to NK about Nicole (either a made up version that she wouldn't leave him alone, or told her the truth that she's 13 and he's worried about being exposed and charged with a sex crime) and asked her advice. NK brought up the idea of murder and over a short period of time convinced him it was the only way to stop Nicole from further contacting him or from exposing their relationship.

I think that DE and NK are both despicable and both fully responsible for Nicole's murder. I do think they both had different motives though. I think DE's motive was to cover up his inappropriate relationship with Nicole and he felt justified in doing so because he is evil and NK probably egged him on with more insane justifications as to why murder was the only choice. I think NK's motive was more of a thrill kill. Thrill killers often feel inadequate deep down and have a very strong need to feel powerful. Planning this murder probably made her feel really important because she was part of this plan with DE, and powerful because she now had the power to choose to end an innocent young girls life in the most violent, in humane way possible. In her own words, she was "excited to be part of something so secretive and special." Excitement is part of thrill killing. She kept the minion blanket so she could relive the murder and fantasize about it which is one reason why many killers keep a "trophy" from their victim. All jmo and subject to change

I'm in total agreement with you. I think there is a reason that each is charged with what they are charged with. Not just based on what NK has had to say. There is obviously evidence we are not aware of yet that make LE think DE was the murderer and NK helped.

 

[Bootsctr]

I have to wonder if Keepers and Eisenhauer even knew taking Nicole's body across the state line would bring in the Feds???

 

[Bootsctr]

I agree that this is where NK came in. Based on what we currently know, I think that aside from the obvious fact that you have to be seriously evil to do what these monsters are accused of doing, a reasonable theory at this point is that DE vented to NK about Nicole (either a made up version that she wouldn't leave him alone, or told her the truth that she's 13 and he's worried about being exposed and charged with a sex crime) and asked her advice. NK brought up the idea of murder and over a short period of time convinced him it was the only way to stop Nicole from further contacting him or from exposing their relationship.

I think that DE and NK are both despicable and both fully responsible for Nicole's murder. I do think they both had different motives though. I think DE's motive was to cover up his inappropriate relationship with Nicole and he felt justified in doing so because he is evil and NK probably egged him on with more insane justifications as to why murder was the only choice. I think NK's motive was more of a thrill kill. Thrill killers often feel inadequate deep down and have a very strong need to feel powerful. Planning this murder probably made her feel really important because she was part of this plan with DE, and powerful because she now had the power to choose to end an innocent young girls life in the most violent, in humane way possible. In her own words, she was "excited to be part of something so secretive and special." Excitement is part of thrill killing. She kept the minion blanket so she could relive the murder and fantasize about it which is one reason why many killers keep a "trophy" from their victim. All jmo and subject to change

Good post! I am seeing DE's motive in wanting to kill Nicole, but your explanation of Keepers' reasons make total sense. She must have been the driving force behind DE!

 

[Inthedetails]

Ya know, I just thought about this...

I think it's quite likely that these two lowlife criminals didn't factor NL's medical history--the liver transplant or the need to take her medication on a strict schedule--into their plans. Because LE knew about the transplant, knew that she didn't have her meds, and knew that the risk of a serious and irreversible medical emergency increased with every missed dose, they definitely turned things up a notch (as they should have) and their search was conducted more aggressively, with more publicity, and with more urgency than it might have otherwise.

I agree - I doubt the killers knew about Nicole's serious health issues and need for medication. I'm not sure it played a role in the crime as I'm convinced they plotted to murder her, but I'm willing to bet they didn't realize she needed meds. And, you're right that the fact she needed meds really made everyone take the case seriously as she wasn't a runaway.

Hmmm....now that I type that out, perhaps Nicole was instructed to take the suitcase so it WOULD look like she ran away. Maybe those social media exchanges about "running away together" were to plant the idea for searchers that Nicole was simply a runaway, which might slow the search a bit. The killers, however, didn't realize Nicole couldn't be a runaway because of the meds and the search would be swift and serious because people wanted to find her before her health declined drastically. Hmm....something to think about.

JMOpinion at the moment.

 

[DatelineFan]

I think she was smarter than that. I have always thought she did not think she would be gone that long.

I agree. I also think that often kids with her kind of medical background, just want to be "normal." I can believe she may not have ever told him about her transplant.

 

[Historydetective63]

Ya know, I just thought about this...

I think it's quite likely that these two lowlife criminals didn't factor NL's medical history--the liver transplant or the need to take her medication on a strict schedule--into their plans. Because LE knew about the transplant, knew that she didn't have her meds, and knew that the risk of a serious and irreversible medical emergency increased with every missed dose, they definitely turned things up a notch (as they should have) and their search was conducted more aggressively, with more publicity, and with more urgency than it might have otherwise.

Totally agree! I've thought the same thing.

 

[wgram]

Nellie's Cave Park is right up against the apartments. My husbands family have their reunion there every year. A couple years ago while playing around with my camera I decided to hike the woods. There are trails, gazebos and such. Lots of trees and hence the name of the park Caves. There are many areas there that someone could lurk at night. Plenty of areas where someone could sneak off and be together. Right now my computer is being a pain or I would upload some pictures of the area.

 

[sallye818]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/transcript/perfectcrime-transcript/

Here is the link for the transcribed version of last night's PBS "American Experience" documentary The Perfect Crime about Leopold and Loeb.

Some points that struck me as SOOO similar to DE and NK in comparison with Leopold and Loeb:

--ages of the victims (Nicole was 13, Bobby Franks was 14)
--both sets of accused perps were described as "wealthy and well-educated"
--As quoted in the documentary "They were the last people who had any reason to commit a kidnapping, much less a murder."
--In both of these cases, there seems to be an indictment on society (perceived increased immorality in the 20's with L&L; teens' involvement and the danger of social media with DE & NK)
--As with NK, L&L, once confronted with irrefutable evidence they'd committed the crime, detailed the whole kidnap & murder and led LE right to the body
--Both sets of alleged perps seemed to set about blaming each other upon confession
--This quote from last night's doc may fit NK & DE as well: "They literally demonstrated how they had done it and walked them through the scenes of the crime as if once they were discovered they were proud of the plotting. They became almost braggarts about it."
--Just as we WSers are having trouble deciding which perp was the mastermind, so did those in the days of L&L. At first, it seemed definite that Leopold was the cruel mastermind; as the time went on, it became obvious it was mostly planned out by Loeb, but both were just as involved.
--One commentator stated, as we have here on WS, that these two psychopaths/sociopaths seemed to hone in on each other like a special radar and their evil minds were like "kindred spirits"
--Just as lawyers and psychiatrists prob will do in DE & NK's cases, the focus was very much on L&L's youth and underdeveloped brains. They were described as still children in many ways; this is, in fact, what the judge hinged on when he handed down the decision (no capital punishment).

And, in conclusion, I think this quote from C. Darrow sums up what many of us feel about all the parents involved (those of NL, NK & DE).

"No one knows what will be the fate of the child they get or the child they bear... The mother who looks into the blue eyes of her little babe cannot help but wonder what will be the end of this child, whether it will be crowned with the greatest promises which her mind can imagine, or whether he may meet death from the gallows." -Clarence Darrow

It remains to be seen how much more similarities (and differences) we will see between this crime and the murder of Bobby Franks. (Thanks to poster meanmaryjean --way back in the beginning--for the first hint that these cases may be similar.)