WA WA - Elma, AsianFem 25-40, 330UFWA, Sz6 pearl Avon ring, gold earring w/5 blue sapphires, Oct'88

[coldcaseman]

One more thing about the shirt over the branch. She was very tiny and short. Was the shirt hung where you think she could have placed it there or higher up? I would think if she placed it there they could have been a couple out shrooming, and if not he threw the shirt as he pulled it off of her inside out and it landed like that, and then they probably would not be a couple. The fact it was inside out tells me she probably didn't put it up there or she would have put it right side out like any woman would do.

The shirt says not a couple to me and he took her there expressly to kill her and she probably knew there was something up all the way there.

Scandi

It was a low branch, only a few feet off the ground. It's a long way out in the woods to take a stranger, prostitute or otherwise. I feel the shirt was hurridly taken off, or it was pulled off.

 

[docwho3]

It was a low branch, only a few feet off the ground. It's a long way out in the woods to take a stranger, prostitute or otherwise. I feel the shirt was hurridly taken off, or it was pulled off.

The way you have spoken of the shirt leads me to believe that there was no blood on it to indicate bloodcausing sort of trauma to the victem before the shirt was removed.

Were any buttons missing off the shirt? I do not know what shape it would have been in after hanging on a branch for long enough for the body to decompose.

And do we then think this was the victems shirt due to size or brand, the side its buttons are sewn on, or just because one would expect the killer to not leave anything of his own behind?

Note: Edited to strike questions that upon reflection I have decided might not be all that helpful. Cold Case man has said that he believes the key to solving this murder is to get the victem ID'd and to that end I have the following thought:

Any chance of the clothing being recognized by anyone who may have known her? Maybe dress up someone who might be of similar build in duplicate clothing and jewelry and take a pic for distribution?

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

i've been so used to CCM being very forthcoming about details of case i had to kick myself and remember this is a homocide. I want to be sure and respect the rules and accept that there will be some things we the public just can't know. So forgive me, ccm, if i pry into an area that would put you on the spot. Tell me it's none of my business and i'll back off. I simple "no comment" would work great.
another thing, were there legible prints on the bottle, if so i guess you didn't get lucky and get a hit from CODIS huh?
Was there other Human DNA found on her body?
Could you tell from entry wound in skull approximately the calibur from opening size? if so is it in keeping with the type that these "armed pickers" (as i will refer to them) carry. I mean if some don't care to get proper permits than their weapons were probably unreg off the streets right. And i guess most would have no reason for a CCW permit either?
P.S. there's a great show on right now on Court TV. about the Cold Case Cowboys. Retired LE joining together in their spare time. check your listings.
cya for now
kk

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

who owns the property where she was found, CCM?
If theoretically one is supposed to have permission from prop owner (which i bet half don't) then i wonder what the list of names looks like that the owner has given express consent to. Killer may have forgotten that at one time maybe he was recorded as having been there.
I used to hunt eons ago and there was a prop that a friend (w/ group) leased every season. After the first consent given by him to the rest of us to go to the deer camp, we never had to ask again. We're dealing with someone who knows the area i feel sure. so did he maybe at one time go check with the owner or have you already covered this base, CCM?
needle in a haystack?
like Igor said, "feed me master!"
give me somethin to run with. I mean something else.
kk

 

[coldcaseman]

Any chance of the clothing being recognized by anyone who may have known her? Maybe dress up someone who might be of similar build in duplicate clothing and jewelry and take a pic for distribution?

The clay reconstruction has the shirt found by the body. The floral print blouse is very close to the fragments I found.

 

[coldcaseman]

.
another thing, were there legible prints on the bottle, if so i guess you didn't get lucky and get a hit from CODIS huh?
Was there other Human DNA found on her body?
Could you tell from entry wound in skull approximately the calibur from opening size? if so is it in keeping with the type that these "armed pickers" (as i will refer to them) carry. I mean if some don't care to get proper permits than their weapons were probably unreg off the streets right. And i guess most would have no reason for a CCW permit either?
P.S. there's a great show on right now on Court TV. about the Cold Case Cowboys. Retired LE joining together in their spare time. check your listings.
cya for now
kk

No fingerprints, no DNA on the bottle. I've found people in the woods armed with everything from pop guns to assault rifles. The property belongs to the Weyerhaeuser Company. There was no one with permits for that area. We questioned anyone we could find who had any reason to be in that area.

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

CCM i didn't mean CCW.
I meant just a carry.
Is it safe to say that most of the armed pickers out there are carrying unreg'd hot guns?
kk

 

[docwho3]

The clay reconstruction has the shirt found by the body. The floral print blouse is very close to the fragments I found.

I think you might get better results with a full body picture with a real person of similar body build showing what she was wearing down to her new shoes (but that's just my opinion.) Maybe it would jar someones memory. Too bad someone at wherever she worked didn't have a coworker complaining of foot pain just before mysteriously "quitting" without giving notice.

 

[coldcaseman]

CCM i didn't mean CCW.
I meant just a carry.
Is it safe to say that most of the armed pickers out there are carrying unreg'd hot guns?
kk

We have recovered some stolen firearms from people found in the woods.

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

thanks.
kk

 

[scandi]

I was just going to say the land sounds like it is owned by a company that logs it - who cut in the roads most likely and keeps them graveled. It is unusual to find a graveled logging road I think, as in Lincoln County at the beach, if they have been graveled it was eons ago! The Elk do more good there than anything walking down those roads!

They might have a roving patrol, but no body is going to worry about getting caught with a firearm out there, as I think the only time would be if an officer like Lane would be out in the area and run across something unusual where he would check it out. I think~!

I agree CC that the shirt could have been pulled off and tossed as it was inside out. By then she was in real trouble.

Thinking past the cunundrums of if she was a local gal, a gal from out of town that hung with people that put her at risk or why he had a gun with him when her shoes say she wasn't really dressed to go shrooming, something about her there, or found around her, or with her bones or the ballistics which I realize are probably a 'no comment' item, is going to ID her. That is what needs to be done, to ID her to find the killer. Something that is in evidence now or remembered about the scenario that was unusual is going to point that direction to say who she was. I wonder if he tossed the gun in the woods as he was driving away so the bullet could never be matched. He had a lot of roadway to do that!

It could be something special in her DNA that says she had a unique factor. Maybe with hair, if that was found, or that earing that was only sold at a few places in the few counties that adjoin the general area of Elma. Or something health wise that is congenital to a certain type of people that could be determined from a piece of a DNA strand, and place her in the area where she would have lived in Washington State.Hmmmm, what could it be!

Scandi

 

[scandi]

I'm trying to think of anything odd about the scene that you don't usually see.

The only thing I can think of tonight is what about the head. Her skull was in so many pieces and still half of it is missing with the other earing? Is that odd? That says to me an animal ripped the missing part away with the earing still in her ear, and it would have to be pretty soon after she was killed as an earlobe would go pretty fast I would think.

I don't even know if that would mean anything to the case. Probably not. But the fact the half of the skull that was found was in so many pieces says to me she was hit more than once to crack her skull like that and make it so weak that an animal could just break the skull apart and take pieces here and there to chew on.

What it could say is maybe something about the killer, like an MO of pistol whipping his victims head before shooting the victim.

I'm watching Miami CSI, can you tell! LOL Scandi

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

Elma is a small town, about 1,200 pop. and the logging road she was on begins about 3 miles west of town. You then travel 5 mile North. I may have some photos, but the only ones I could share would show what we call second growth timber with the forest floor covered with moss, tree debris, some salal scattered about.

if you picture Satsop and 410 as the letter L does the long logging road run off to the north sort of parallel to satsop? Is all that property in the corner of the "L" owned by Weyerhaeuser? it looks like their office is a little east of town. They make hardwood veneer and plywood mainly supplying for the building industry so logging would be their main interest around there. It's interesting. The website link listed under company name and address in yellow pages is Tyloon.com. It's a central website directory for many manufacturers. Tyloon.com is available in English, Spanish and Chinese )two different versions.) I imagine their personnel is as diverse too?
Many of these product suppliers on Tyloon.com have an international reach.
Scandi, my guess is that for a road to be graveled it'd be county maintained or maintained by Weyer. If county does gravel it, I bet Weyer. gets the bill.

kk

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

:waitasec:
i'm not so sure Scandi i agree with your line of thinking. Her skull or any other bone for that matter wouldn't necessarily had to have been cracked up to allow an animal to rip it apart. I do agree that they probably absconded with part of her face/head before normal decomp or bugs took the flesh or the earring would've been close to body, IMO
I know the power of the jaws of some of these critters. Everything from river rats to badgers are probably around there. Even a coon could even pull off a jaw if the flesh had weakened enough. So this may help answer the timeline questions as to when her remains began to be disspersed. Once her ear left the scene, that other earring coulda ended up anywhere. With the amount of logging personnel out there no telling what they found and kept. If i found an earring like that alone on the ground i may have takin it without thinking. Now if it was still attached to half a person's face, i woulda hightailed it. I'll bet that Weyer. subs out alot of their trucking work. Other buyers may bring in their own fleet. That makes a long list of drivers/operators that went thru their in 20 years.
kk

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

was it exclusive to Avon?


If there are pics that can be posted/published, i'd love to see one of the general locale. Maybe one that was taken well after scene was processed.
it may sound silly, but i'd really like a mental image. The woods in my mind look like the ones i played in down in rural GA. Think about it if you will, CCM.
kk

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

i wonder if LE has ever, in any given case, considered circulating these unsolveds flyers around inmates. see what it kicks up?

kk

 

[scandi]

Hey, good idea about circulating photos to inmates Wannabe. Shelton is not too far away from Elma, north as I remember and off a different hwy.

If the logging roads are running through Weyerhauser property then they build and maintain them, unless of course there is some pre-agreement in the deed to the property which I doubt.

As to the Avon ring, it was very common and I think I might have had one myself about that time. It wasn't a real pearl but a fake, at least mine was.

Back to bed!


Scandi

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

bear with me with guys...
2 hrs sleep for now. It's like talking on your cell when batt is going. If i had a little red light on my forehead, it'd be blinkin.

Google earth, the basic program, can be downloaded for free. Google Earth Plus is about $20. I HIGHLY recommend that fellow sleuthers get it.Today. It can be a valuable tool for sleuthing and so many other things. THey've update the program and it's very user friendly. Once you start working it, you'll be amazed at what it can do. Here's the link to where to find it:

http://earth.google.com/

Once loaded? type in Elma, WA into "find" box. You should be able to see forrested area on north side of town. I believe this is the general area full of logging roads that our girl was found. Sort of gives one a better idea where this killer had to have driven her out to.

With that said, i have a question for CMM.
She was far away from nearest paved road. would that be the paved road you took to get to crime scene? what road was that, East Satsop?
It looks like Newman Creek rd heads into the same area too. Feasibly the killer could have taken a number of routes out there if he knew logging roads well enough. Was it as far north from town as Schafer Park? Do you think they drove to that spot from the same road you took?

I've got a list of ?? i made this morning. Will get them organized and post them a little later.
kk

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

do mushroom pickers wear gloves?
kk

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

something very off topic and very funny. I chuckled all day when i found this.
kk

http://veryfunnyads.com/ads/25001.html