WA WA - Kent, UnsFem 13-24, UP9930, SK G Ridgeway Victim "B20", Aug'03 - Tammie Liles

[Alpha_Q]

The B-20 remains were fragmentary and partial. They did not include a skull to compare dental records to. That skull was found in a completely different place. There was no way of knowing that they were from the same person without DNA to prove it.

MOO

I replied to this post earlier, but it was pulled, possibly because I linked to an outside website as 'proof' (?)

First, thank you for discussing this with me, I really appreciate your responses to me in this thread.

Individual teeth have been compared to dental records for initial identification purposes in many cases previously, including the WTC attack, and a case local to me involving triple murderer Douglas Garland, which has a thread here. I agree with Othram of the importance of DNA testing, of course. Surely a link between 'B-20' and her Oregon remains made in 2003 would have sped up that process.

Othram, the work you and your company does is simply fantastic.

 

[iamshadow21]

I replied to this post earlier, but it was pulled, possibly because I linked to an outside website as 'proof' (?)

First, thank you for discussing this with me, I really appreciate your responses to me in this thread.

Individual teeth have been compared to dental records for initial identification purposes in many cases previously, including the WTC attack, and a case local to me involving triple murderer Douglas Garland, which has a thread here. I agree with Othram of the importance of DNA testing, of course. Surely a link between 'B-20' and her Oregon remains made in 2003 would have sped up that process.

Othram, the work you and your company does is simply fantastic.

The fact that it took another twenty years for identification suggests the teeth found with B-20 didn't possess unique characteristics such as peculiar fillings or unusual formation. We don't know what Tammie's dental records were like. If they were a handwritten chart, not x-rays, then loose, unremarkable individual teeth would not be sufficient for a definitive identification.

The identifications for 9/11, from accounts by forensic anthropologists and others that I have read, relied heavily on DNA. They had to, since much of the remains DMORT had to try to identify was composed of parts that were so fragmentary and small. Teeth. Bone shards. Fingertips. Tiny portions of flesh or internal organs. For the most part, all damaged by fire, fire fighting chemicals, jet fuel, and catastrophic force.

I don't think there is any indication that due diligence wasn't done here. Agencies have been working since B-20's discovery to identify her. And as I said higher up the thread, with potentially twenty victims still missing and multiple found and unfound victims having had their remains separated and scattered, without DNA there was no way of being certain that Tammie and B-20 were one and the same.

MOO

 

[AkitasAreLovely]

Yeah, I think of the Herb Baumeister case wth so many charred and broken bits of bones, and the herculean identification work that would be needed on a case like that, and just thank science for DNA to make an otherwise impossible task possible.

 

[iamshadow21]

Yeah, I think of the Herb Baumeister case wth so many charred and broken bits of bones, and the herculean identification work that would be needed on a case like that, and just thank science for DNA to make an otherwise impossible task possible.

One of the most remarkable cases I've heard of is that of Glyde Meek and Page Jennings, for an anthropological identification. This was preDNA, in 1985. In that case, the perpetrator essentially created the conditions of a crematorium, the bones were reduced basically to powder and calcified to the point that even with today's technology, I think a DNA identification would have been very, very difficult. As it is, ID was probably only able to be made because a bone escaped the full force of the conflagration due to the structure the deceased were in collapsing. (The case is covered in the book written by the late William Maples.)

Ridgway didn't cremate his victims, but there are many things that can make an identification very difficult. DNA is at once robust and incredibly fragile. Bacteria, soil pH, water, heat, cold, physical damage, animal predation, incorrect storage, boiling remains or stripping them with chemicals, embalming, commingling of multiple victims... All can play their part in hampering the ID of an unidentified decedent. We saw a number of those factors in the Green River cases due to Ridgway's disposal and postmortem obfuscation, and the fact that many of the victims weren't found until they were skeletonised.

MOO

 

[Alpha_Q]

The fact that it took another twenty years for identification suggests the teeth found with B-20 didn't possess unique characteristics such as peculiar fillings or unusual formation. We don't know what Tammie's dental records were like. If they were a handwritten chart, not x-rays, then loose, unremarkable individual teeth would not be sufficient for a definitive identification.

The identifications for 9/11, from accounts by forensic anthropologists and others that I have read, relied heavily on DNA. They had to, since much of the remains DMORT had to try to identify was composed of parts that were so fragmentary and small. Teeth. Bone shards. Fingertips. Tiny portions of flesh or internal organs. For the most part, all damaged by fire, fire fighting chemicals, jet fuel, and catastrophic force.

I don't think there is any indication that due diligence wasn't done here. Agencies have been working since B-20's discovery to identify her. And as I said higher up the thread, with potentially twenty victims still missing and multiple found and unfound victims having had their remains separated and scattered, without DNA there was no way of being certain that Tammie and B-20 were one and the same.

MOO

Something continued to bother me about this, and I had a hard time letting it go, so I reread some of the material related to Green River murders. The Prosecutor's Summary of Evidence that was put together by the Prosecuting Attorney Norm Maleng in 2003 states that "approximately" 23 bones were found at the B-20 site and a mitochondrial DNA profile was extracted, but not matched to any of the official missing victims - the key word being 'missing.' (Page 123 of that document if anyone cares to look it up). I am now more convinced that there was no attempt to match these partial remains with other sets of partial remains, despite the knowledge that the killer relocated a number of victims' bodies.