Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #5

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Would any one be as uncomfortable if LE were watching a group that they thought were stockpiling weapons? Or perhaps had terrorist links? Or merely a different sect that also had a leader with "end of the world" visionary tendencies?

I equate Warren Jeffs with Jim Jones, David Koresh and what's that other guys name, the one that convinced his followers to commit suicide in California to catch a ride on a commet. All of these men molded their followers according to their doctrine, to fit their egos. Jeff's has been asking who among his people would die for him. If you were being asked that by him and you weren't as enamored of him as all that, wouldn't that be a chilling question?

Jeffs was preaching blood atonement with the end hope of being able to resume using that. If he hadn't flown into the proverbial ****fan there's no telling how soon he would have instituted that measure. It was already being used as a threat upon the members to keep them in line. That's even more chilling imo.

Jeffs IMO was so eaten up with power that he thought he truly was untouchable, a God here on earth. His comment below shows he had no intention of giving up that power over the others.

http://www.lasvegasweekly.com/content/fileadmin/oldsite/2004/02/05/cover.html
According to another FLDS member present, Jeffs, after making this announcement, turned to the other men at the gathering: "This is a benevolent dictatorship. But I would like anyway to see a show of hands of those who support me in cutting these men off." Only four men refused to back Jeffs, and the outraged prophet let them know: "God is taking this down." This is an excellent article and I think that erring on the side of caution was
necessary for CPS and LE regarding this group.

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/how-dangerous-flds
How Dangerous is The FLDS? "One of the trickiest parts of dealing with the extremist right is figuring out whether a given group is just harmless garden-variety crazy -- or harboring the special kind of insanity that will lead to acts of local violence or outright domestic terror. it's a question worth asking in the wake of the state of Texas' intervention in the Eldorado colony of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-Day Saints. As the country is thrust into a fresh debate over individual religious freedom versus our collective interest in protecting people's civil rights, we're struggling once again with the deeper question: When should we leave people alone? And when does the state have a public duty to intervene?"
 
FlowerChild said:
Turn things around and look at it THIS WAY
Think about it - We are faced with WOMEN (Adults) who have NEVER chosen their own attire, their own hairstyle or made so much as a SINGLE DECISION ON THEIR OWN. If you question the "rightness" of FORCING these women and children to change their THINKING (not their religion) you must examine whether the change we are advocating is one that affects the RELIGION or LIFESTYLE...?

It ISN'T.

ALL we are asking these women to do is MAKE DECISIONS THEMSELVES based on sound (lawful) information and facts. They may continue to dress, worship and live the way they have...ALL they must do is learn to THINK for themselves and MAKE SOUND CHOICES for themselves and their minor children. And yet they are unable to commit to doing so --- FROM FEAR?? GMAB

These ladies are afraid of THINKING....brainwashed into believing they are inferior and stupid and unworthy...brainwashed not by US, but by their own leaders and spouses. All we are doing now is asking them to THINK...not forsake God or wear make-up or ANY of that...just THINK and NOT ask their HUSBAND or a MAN to THINK for them.

Man, we are horrible...how can we persecute these poor women so??? Destroy their lives and family with THOUGHTS??? EDUCATION?? LOGIC???

AND BTW, CHANGE is ALWAYS SCARY - for ALL HUMANS!

My Opinion
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Not disagreeing with you FC, but they can still keep their hairstyles and pioneer dresses if they wish. Noone is forcing them to give it up. Personally, I don't think the children will be harmed if the TV is turned on and it's children's shows like Sesame Street, Barney, and Reading Rainbow. These are educational shows.
 
songline said:
I think you are trying to be very logical; Unfortunately I think that these pe ople are very brain washed group and the children are in danger of their very own male population; So treating these moms the same way as one may treat a mom that is not from a cult would not work - IMO.
I do think they should be given opportunities, I think they should be heard. but I would not give them one child this early on, how would we know that child would not be going back to the same environment? In fact it is safe to say that all people are creatures of habit and they would go back to the same environment. How would we know that these women would protect them? They never protected the kids before....
I personally feel that the children should be raised by Mormon family's - that is their culture; Many Mormon families live clean lives and do not belong to a psycho cult.
I personally think these women need to be re-educated, re-trained to think right before any children are given to them. JMHO
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I completely agree Songline!:clap::clap::clap:
 
KOOL LOOK said:
Believe it, concerning me and two sets of false allegations concerning my husbands daughter whom we had custody of. The judge fined the mother 1,500 dollars and held her in contempt, but he didn't jail her. Which I'm glad. I don't know if any reprecussions came out of these two hearings concerning cps. One agency from one county, one from another.

Our attorney did an outstanding job, or should I say they did such a lousy job lying anyone could see it. Our attorney pulled out previous court hearing transcripts they had previously testified under oath and they were busted. But as a whole, I don't believe they go around lying, but I believe they will to cover their behinds if they've done something wrong or have a motive too.
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I'm sure we've all heard of cases were CPS was in the wrong, but they're not always wrong. For every one we hear about that screwed up, there are plenty more out there in every state who try to do the best they can. In your case I'm glad you were prepared and proved your case. If they're wrong, they're wrong. But when they're correct, it's nice if they can get some credit for doing a job well.
 
mollymalone said:
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=110284&messages=209&page=1&desc=yes


Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 02:49 PM

2 girls who tried to run found tied together and drowned in the reservoir. Colorado City. Description by their cousin, ex-flds, video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BLkJRFSVbw&feature=related

BABY GRAVE YARD SHOWN
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Well i find myself weeping again after watching what Flora has to tell in this video. :(
 
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-04-27-pringle_N.htm


The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) has put roots on 140 acres of rugged territory. It is the same sect as at the ranch near Eldorado, Texas, where the practice of men taking multiple wives and allegations of sexual abuse of underage girls have sparked a custody battle over more than 400 children.

No such allegations have been made here, but local police worry about whether they can do their job when many of the people in their jurisdiction live in a closed, secretive society.
 
For those who are concerned about the kids watching TV, this might help.


Workers at the Children’s Shelter on this city’s gritty west side began this week to remove anything and everything colored red from the walls, the floors, even from their clothes.

snip....But getting the red out is only the beginning. Forget bologna and white bread for lunch, too. Because the children, from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or F.L.D.S., have never eaten processed foods, the new shelter mantra is whole grains and fresh vegetables. Because they have never been to public school, the equivalent of home schooling will be established in shelters. Because they have never watched television, televisions will remain off.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/26/us/26raid.html?em&ex=1209355200&en=d55fcdab5e1c835a&ei=5087%0A
 
mollymalone said:
I'm sure we've all heard of cases were CPS was in the wrong, but they're not always wrong. For every one we hear about that screwed up, there are plenty more out there in every state who try to do the best they can. In your case I'm glad you were prepared and proved your case. If they're wrong, they're wrong. But when they're correct, it's nice if they can get some credit for doing a job well.
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I agree with you Molly. For their human just as we are. They can make honest mistakes, have accidents and then intentionally decieve, for there's the human element to all of this.

In my case, I wasn't prepared. I thank the Lord he had my back though. They were, along with the bio mom had allegations pinned on me that would have probably sent me to prison for 10 to 20 years had they had there way. I was in the process of moving into my new home July 2000. I had only packed enough clothes for my family shorts, t shirts, under clothes, to work and move in, but be able to sleep on a mattress while we began to settle in.


We got notified on a Sunday evening around 6:00 p.m. the time to return our daughter, that there was trouble. They got an emergency hearing for the next day Monday at 10:30 a.m.. I wept uncontrollably. A neighbor brought clothes for husband and I to appear in this hearing. One of the few times I was proud of my attorney was he dropped everything and was there spot on. Cost me Two thousand five hundred dollars to defend myself in the latest lie filled allegations. Which I never recovered, though the judge ruled for my attorney fees to be paid. The bio mother had nothing to retain or sue over, so it was all on my husband, me and our children to absorb the cost and do without.

To this day, I have never decorated my new home, set it up with the loving nurturing hands i would have so freely labored over because I had my joy destroyed. I was robbed.

Thank you mysteryview, it did help soothe my concerns for the children. Tv destroys the minds of all that watch it, if they don't monitor and hand pick what is aired in their homes. Garbage in, garbage out. Be careful little eyes what you see, be careful little ears what you hear.
 
KOOL LOOK said:
I agree with you Molly. For their human just as we are. They can make honest mistakes, have accidents and then intentionally decieve, for there's the human element to all of this.

In my case, I wasn't prepared. I thank the Lord he had my back though. They were, along with the bio mom had allegations pinned on me that would have probably sent me to prison for 10 to 20 years had they had there way. I was in the process of moving into my new home July 2000. I had only packed enough clothes for my family shorts, t shirts, under clothes, to work and move in, but be able to sleep on a mattress while we began to settle in.


We got notified on a Sunday evening around 6:00 p.m. the time to return our daughter, that there was trouble. They got an emergency hearing for the next day Monday at 10:30 a.m.. I wept uncontrollably. A neighbor brought clothes for husband and I to appear in this hearing. One of the few times I was proud of my attorney was he dropped everything and was there spot on. Cost me Two thousand five hundred dollars to defend myself in the latest lie filled allegations. Which I never recovered, though the judge ruled for my attorney fees to be paid. The bio mother had nothing to retain or sue over, so it was all on my husband, me and our children to absorb the cost and do without.

To this day, I have never decorated my new home, set it up with the loving nurturing hands i would have so freely labored over because I had my joy destroyed. I was robbed.

Thank you mysteryview, it did help soothe my concerns for the children. Tv destroys the minds of all that watch it, if they don't monitor and hand pick what is aired in their homes. Garbage in, garbage out. Be careful little eyes what you see, be careful little ears what you hear.
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((((KOOL LOOK)))) I'm so sorry you went through such a terrible time. :blowkiss:
 
mostlylurking said:
Yep, we Americans really got it going on, now down't we.... :rolleyes:
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Now darn it, that's my line! Where ya from? I'm from the South and we talk like that round here.

believe09 said:
now THAT is a creative solution-I love it.
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I appreciate your input believe. There's always a way to do something, and then there's the right way to do it. They could have quietly entered onto this property, gathered the men, taken them to a facility and questioned them appropriately. They could have investigated the living conditions, supervised and monitored daily activities as they investigated believed to be perpetrators and law breakers. Remove the criminals, not the innocent.

Jolynna said:
I put all adults who have sex with children in the "to catch a predator" pedophile category. It isn't ever ok. I think all adults (male and female) who indulge should be punished to the full extent of the law.

However, I have friends who are Amish and Mennonite who don't have electricity in their homes, musical instruments are forbidden by some sects and many children don't go to school past the 8th grade.

If you lived where I live, you'd see those kids outside their homes every day romping and playing in the fresh air. They eat meals emphasizing grown from your own garden, home-preserved food. Those kids aren't unhappy or abused. At night families play games, read (yes probably from the Bible) or talk.

I went without a television in my home for over 3 years...by choice. (Not for religious reasons) I think my children's happiest memories are from that time. My experience is that all modern luxuries are not only not necessities, they can even replace having a life.

I totally agree with you that adults should never have sex with children. I respectfully have to disagree that what is considered mainstream culture is necessarily the best way to raise a child.

IMO
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Good post. My thoughts exactly. You wait till this is all over, the facts are all in, this will be one that goes down in the history books as a perfect example of abuse of authority. I would love to have some accurate information of the lifestyles, homes and family relationships of those that called the shots here. That's what I want to know. Show me this, and I'll show you where the root of this evil manifested towards the innocent. I know for a fact, others, and I'm going to say it, some women are extremely jealous of the purity, Godliness, obedience, submission and hard work these women show in staying at home raising their children. That's one of the underlying unspoken hidden undercover of darkness wicked elements to this action that has caused it to come to fruitition. Just one of the many.

My thoughts in general to those in authority and those who support the shock and awe of this raid:
Play it on play it on. Defend this action if you must. There is going to be heavy consequences to this invasion and attempt to cause division within families.
 
Floh said:
((((KOOL LOOK)))) I'm so sorry you went through such a terrible time. :blowkiss:
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I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I still tear up when I think about it. Not that I haven't forgiven all, for I have. It's myself I am hard on now. I should have never allowed anyone or anything to hinder me from being the mother and wife, homemaker I am inside.

So my solution to all this now, te he is we're looking for another home, a new beginning. This time, no one is going to steal my joy, rob me of what my husband and I work so very hard to build, which is a peaceful loving home for not only our very own family, but those in need of love and compassion.

The bio mom passed away January was a year ago. Her name was Patty. We made amends, she grabbed and hugged me, and I don't believe would have ever let me go had my husband not been there and peeled her arms away. When I learned of her sickness, diagnosed with hepatitis C, and was in it's last deadly stages, I gathered our daughter, placed her back in the care and custody of her mother to live the rest of her days with the love and companionship of each other. Patty had made so many positive changes when she became diagnosed. She was diagnosed to die within weeks. Through prayer, she lived almost four more years. She and I had peace with each other. She had a loving relationship with Chelsea until her last days here on earth. Nothing can ever change the inner happiness I feel inside knowing that we made it, we learned to love.
 
Koollook, please do not type your thoughts into the middle of my quote. I would appreciate it if you corrected this, as I am in support of the law here. Thank you.

For the record, Koollook wrote the little paragraph beginning with 'Bull Malarky' in the middle of my comment.
 
KOOL LOOK said:
I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I still tear up when I think about it. Not that I haven't forgiven all, for I have. It's myself I am hard on now. I should have never allowed anyone or anything to hinder me from being the mother and wife, homemaker I am inside.

So my solution to all this now, te he is we're looking for another home, a new beginning. This time, no one is going to steal my joy, rob me of what my husband and I work so very hard to build, which is a peaceful loving home for not only our very own family, but those in need of love and compassion.

The bio mom passed away January was a year ago. Her name was Patty. We made amends, she grabbed and hugged me, and I don't believe would have ever let me go had my husband not been there and peeled her arms away. When I learned of her sickness, diagnosed with hepatitis C, and was in it's last deadly stages, I gathered our daughter, placed her back in the care and custody of her mother to live the rest of her days with the love and companionship of each other. Patty had made so many positive changes when she became diagnosed. She was diagnosed to die within weeks. Through prayer, she lived almost four more years. She and I had peace with each other. She had a loving relationship with Chelsea until her last days here on earth. Nothing can ever change the inner happiness I feel inside knowing that we made it, we learned to love.
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You're a good person.
 
One of the problems with "removing the men" is that some of the women might also be abusers. Therefore, leaving the children in place within the "home" ranch would solve nothing if their abusers were still there with them.
 
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/28/flds.openness/index.html

Excerpt:

The sect's sudden openness appears an attempt to reunite mothers and children. However, the stakes may be higher, said Walsh, who explained that FLDS members believe polygamy and ably caring for many children are essential to reaching the highest tier of heaven.

According to FLDS beliefs, you must be free from sin -- as with most Christian religions -- to get to heaven. Those deemed "wicked" go to hell until they atone for their sins, said Walsh, a mainstream Mormon doing post-doctorate studies at the University of St. Thomas-Houston in Texas.

Those who aren't deemed wicked go to the "spirit world" to await the final judgment that dictates in which of the three levels of heaven they will reside for eternity. Everyone will eventually go to one level of heaven, Walsh explained, but to ascend to the highest tier, you must first learn certain lessons -- how to be a good parent and spouse among them.

"To really enjoy heaven, you have to be married and you have to have your kids with you," Walsh said. "Everything experienced on Earth will be in its more perfected form in heaven." See a map of FLDS enclaves »

If you haven't learned the lessons you needed to learn on Earth, "you would have to learn these lessons in the spirit world" before entering heaven, he said.

If your children are taken away, you may have to learn how to be a good parent in the spirit world, thereby postponing your passage to heaven, Walsh said.

In short, the parents are willing to sacrifice their secrecy in exchange for the children -- a level of desperation that Walsh believes Texas authorities could tap to reach an "amenable" compromise.

But don't mistake FLDS openness for candor, said Marci Hamilton, a professor at Yeshiva University's Cardozo School of Law who has studied polygamist sects for 10 years.

The FLDS is only as open as it needs to be. Everything church members offer -- the news conferences, the interviews, the tours of the YFZ compound, even the Web site's name -- has been scripted to elicit sympathy, she said.
 
I have a poster on another forum who said this:

So you think FLDS is just a big phony baloney front organization for a secret society of pedophiles?

Maybe instead of reading current news all day, you should take a 1/2 hour break and read some of the history of the mormon church. I think it might help your perpective on the mentality of these people. I'm not saying I know that these guys AREN'T a bunch of pedophiles covering their activities with religion, but I'm just saying that when you really don't know, all you can do is pidgeon-hole them out of your own perspective. And unless your perspective is enhanced with contextual/cultural/historical knowledge, it sounds like the blind judgment of ignorance.

post # 261 here:

http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=253&nav=messages&webtag=ab-crime&tid=19167

Would love to know what you all think of this post.
 
SewingDeb said:
I have a poster on another forum who said this:

So you think FLDS is just a big phony baloney front organization for a secret society of pedophiles?

Maybe instead of reading current news all day, you should take a 1/2 hour break and read some of the history of the mormon church. I think it might help your perpective on the mentality of these people. I'm not saying I know that these guys AREN'T a bunch of pedophiles covering their activities with religion, but I'm just saying that when you really don't know, all you can do is pidgeon-hole them out of your own perspective. And unless your perspective is enhanced with contextual/cultural/historical knowledge, it sounds like the blind judgment of ignorance.

post # 261 here:

http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=253&nav=messages&webtag=ab-crime&tid=19167

Would love to know what you all think of this post.
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I sincerely don't mind being called ignorant when i say i believe they are pedophiles covering their activities with religion.

ETA: Wow! you've been cooking up a storm on that site SewingDeb. way to go! :)
 
Thanks! I feel better now.

He also sees a beautiful poetic justice in their bleeding the beast.
 
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