midwest mama,
Do you have a reference to this fact, some citation, etc?
Which does not rule out BDI, does it?
BR may have overpowered JonBenet, so physical marks may have been absent. Have you applied the same reasoning to the parents?
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Was BR involved? #2
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midwest mama,
BR may have overpowered JonBenet, so physical marks may have been absent. Have you applied the same reasoning to the parents?
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It is true that we have no proof at all that BR was in his room at any time that night. The only time that can be verified is when FW arrived that morning and was sent to get BR from his room. Other than that, nothing proves he was in his room, indeed, the 911 call has proven he was NOT in his room (which the parents later admitted). While I believe BR played no part in the STAGING, and I do not believe he was in the basement during that time, we still can't prove that. We have no proof of his exact whereabouts other than we know he was in the house somewhere.
That BR was staged to appear as if he was always in his room might suggest this scenario is consistent with BDI staging on behalf of the parents.
Although Kolar, via allegations wrt BR's pants being found in JonBenet's bedroom suggest another scenario?
Everything being hidden is consistent with BR being the person who is being airbrushed from the crime-scene, i.e. not erased, just removed enough so nobody can place him at the scene of the crime.
IMO, its so obvious, its a no brainer!
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Although Kolar, via allegations wrt BR's pants being found in JonBenet's bedroom suggest another scenario?
Everything being hidden is consistent with BR being the person who is being airbrushed from the crime-scene, i.e. not erased, just removed enough so nobody can place him at the scene of the crime.
IMO, its so obvious, its a no brainer!
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midwest mama
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Must take time to make necessary corrections to my post #439 to come in line with comments by UKGuy. I will replace the word Fact with the word Speculation. Also, to clarify my meaning properly, the word Coached needs to be replaced with Reported To.
I intended to postulate that BR'S comments during questioning might suggest that he was in his room during the crime and that his knowledge about JB'S murder came from his parents later telling him she had been kidnapped then killed by an intruder.
Yes, it is true that corroborated information of BR being in his room only places him there for sure after the 911 call. The only other way to theorize he could have been in his room during the night is to believe JR tild the truth about assisting him to bed and then to wonder if what BR told interviewers could indicate he was actually in his room during the crime.
As far as either of the adults sporting marks that JB could have made on them in retaliation, I easily imagine them having a good deal more ability to refract agression from JB because they would have more physical ability to overpower and control such behavior. However, both parents, according to reports had only their hands and heads exposed from their clothing and nothing was reported as unusual. IMO, JB stood at least a chance to inflict some physical marks on her brother if she could have, and almost no chance to do it to eitherbif her parents. Strictly MOO!
I intended to postulate that BR'S comments during questioning might suggest that he was in his room during the crime and that his knowledge about JB'S murder came from his parents later telling him she had been kidnapped then killed by an intruder.
Yes, it is true that corroborated information of BR being in his room only places him there for sure after the 911 call. The only other way to theorize he could have been in his room during the night is to believe JR tild the truth about assisting him to bed and then to wonder if what BR told interviewers could indicate he was actually in his room during the crime.
As far as either of the adults sporting marks that JB could have made on them in retaliation, I easily imagine them having a good deal more ability to refract agression from JB because they would have more physical ability to overpower and control such behavior. However, both parents, according to reports had only their hands and heads exposed from their clothing and nothing was reported as unusual. IMO, JB stood at least a chance to inflict some physical marks on her brother if she could have, and almost no chance to do it to eitherbif her parents. Strictly MOO!
MissHaley
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So, I've been reading here before I was a member & have listened to Tricia's radio shows, so I'm just going to jump in here, since you brought up some thing I have a question about.
My problem with BR is that I cannot understand how a 9 yo would know how to apply a garrotte, or even know what one was? He would be breaking the paint brushes and finding rope? I don't understand. Any help would be appreciated.
MissHaley,
Welcome aboard the sweet ship websleuths.
Not only would a 9 yo not understand the difference between a boating knot and a garrote, he would most likely be unable to differentiate between a primary crime-scene and a secondary crime-scene. Granted a 9 yo recognizing he might have been involved an a primary crime-scene might wish to tweak it, i.e. remove clothing, e.g. size-6 underwear, or simply rearrange stuff to suit what will become some explanation.
So a 9 yo would have no conceptual grasp on the big picture, and its here the non BDI protagonists fall down. In a sense they seem to be arguing for arguments sake, despite a respected detective, i.e. Kolar, offering insights unavailable in the past!
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Welcome aboard the sweet ship websleuths.
Patently this is a rhetorical question, its answer lies therein.
Not only would a 9 yo not understand the difference between a boating knot and a garrote, he would most likely be unable to differentiate between a primary crime-scene and a secondary crime-scene. Granted a 9 yo recognizing he might have been involved an a primary crime-scene might wish to tweak it, i.e. remove clothing, e.g. size-6 underwear, or simply rearrange stuff to suit what will become some explanation.
So a 9 yo would have no conceptual grasp on the big picture, and its here the non BDI protagonists fall down. In a sense they seem to be arguing for arguments sake, despite a respected detective, i.e. Kolar, offering insights unavailable in the past!
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As you continue to read and investigate, you'll find that MOST people who believe BR was involved do NOT believe he fashioned the garrote or broke the paintbrush. His involvement was the sexual abuse and head bash. The parents did the rest (IMO).
887sMtreme
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Please forgive (and redirect) me if this has been discussed before. I did some searching and couldn't find anything on the forum. I have always thought a BDI scenario was worth exploring. Speculation for sure here, but I could imagine the boy being jealous of all the attention JBR got, her excessive (and probably stinky) personal grooming needs and how these might have annoyed him, and so on. Something could have snapped that night.
More to the point, do any BDI adherents believe B could have written the RN? Seems to me a 9-yr-old would probably not know such a note should be short. His handwriting would be erratic as he continued to spin out his cover. He would not have realized how stupid "small foreign faction" and other statements sounded in reality, might have picked up other random references from recently-seems TV programs or movies. He might have thought the mention of the $118,000 was very clever. The chances are he heard that sum mentioned. He might even have channeled his mother's voice with the "don't grow a brain" and other personal comments addressed to J -- it's possible he overheard such lines spoken in irritation in the past.
I'd love to hear what others have thought about this.
Thanks very much.
More to the point, do any BDI adherents believe B could have written the RN? Seems to me a 9-yr-old would probably not know such a note should be short. His handwriting would be erratic as he continued to spin out his cover. He would not have realized how stupid "small foreign faction" and other statements sounded in reality, might have picked up other random references from recently-seems TV programs or movies. He might have thought the mention of the $118,000 was very clever. The chances are he heard that sum mentioned. He might even have channeled his mother's voice with the "don't grow a brain" and other personal comments addressed to J -- it's possible he overheard such lines spoken in irritation in the past.
I'd love to hear what others have thought about this.
Thanks very much.
thanks for pointing out a few things that I agree with. One thing I've always believed, is if one child is abused, the other children are also affected and nobody has a normal life. The worse the abuse, the worse the reactions from all the children. They all learn to shut things out and to not talk about the abuse, etc. I do believe JB was severely abused and I agree with the GJ that the abuse was ongoing and resulted in her death. Now, my question is this...even if BR wasn't being abused, (but he could have been), how would this have affected him? IMO, all of the things that Kolar alluded to, could have been reactions to living in a badly dysfunctional family, and wouldn't necessarily point to him being involved. IMO, BR probably wasn't involved except for being in the house, faking sleep, and hearing and seeing more than his parents realized. I can't be suspicious of him because of issues he suffered, when IMO, those issues were probably caused by his upbringing. I mean, how can we judge him for abnormal behavior and call him a killer, when nothing around him was healthy or normal? How could we expect him to behave any way other than the way he did behave? seems to me, he loved his sister but learned to detach from her abuse, including the night of her murder, and then he tried to protect his family, (and himself). moo
IMO it would be impossible for BR to be the author of the RN. Would he know what an "attaché" is, know how to spell it or to include the accent mark? Why would he address it to his father? Why would he use the phrase "southern common sense" knowing his father is from michigan? The vocabulary alone makes me discount that idea, but also the sentence structure and general formatting of the letter is too good.
Not speaking for everyone, but I believe most posters who believe BDI attribute the note to the parents as staging after the fact.
Not speaking for everyone, but I believe most posters who believe BDI attribute the note to the parents as staging after the fact.
887sMtreme
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Thanks, Annapurna. Good thoughts. I wondered if BR could have picked up a few tidbits from the descriptions on the boxes of DVDs, maybe even books the Ramsey's apparently enjoyed reading, and from overheard comments. Perhaps PR heard the term "southern common sense" (perhaps even directed at him) and he turned it around on his dad in the RN. I know, way too speculative. I just have always wondered if BR's pocket knife could have been a prop in some "playing doctor" abuse, too.
Also, there is an Attaché International Marketing ad agency in Colorado that might have been a rival of JR's company, or maybe he knew people associated with it and their marketing materials were lying around. <shrug>
Also, there is an Attaché International Marketing ad agency in Colorado that might have been a rival of JR's company, or maybe he knew people associated with it and their marketing materials were lying around. <shrug>
I don't think there is any way a nearly 10-year old could have written that note. The linguistics and vocabulary and punctuation have Patsy all over it, right down to putting periods in between letters in acronyms, something that is no longer taught in school. BR would not have known to do that. Nor would he have known the dollar amount of his father's Christmas bonus that year, which had not been made public and which only his parents would have known. I believe BR was sexually abusing his sister and likely was the one who bashed her on the head that night (to shut her up when she screamed). I do not believe he had anything to do with what happened after that. The parents took over.
wildebeest
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DeeDee---you have just expressed my thoughts about this case, almost from the beginning. It is the only scenario that makes sense. I feel that Patsy did write the note, and she and John tried to cover up the facts. They didn't want to lose another child...:twocents:
IMHO
Hazura Jane
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My apologies if this was already covered somewhere in this thread.
The only thing that would have kept PR from making a deathbed confession is a mother's love for her remaining, living child, IN MY OPINION.
That's only my opinion.
If this has been covered already, my apologies for not taking time to go through this topic's posts.
The only thing that would have kept PR from making a deathbed confession is a mother's love for her remaining, living child, IN MY OPINION.
That's only my opinion.
If this has been covered already, my apologies for not taking time to go through this topic's posts.
Regarding the book JR was reading from way back in this thread, Steve Thomas deposition said his investigator claimed the book on his bedside was Mindhunter.
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-mindhunter.htm
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-mindhunter.htm
if you are trying to distance a child from an accident he caused, yes you might wipe down everything! even batteries.
the reason for no prints on the batteries is something a non criminal would think is important. You can wipe down the murder weapon but in their mind if the batteries had their fingerprints on them, that meant the flashlight was theirs.
And they wanted everyone to believe the flashlight was not theirs, hence wiping down the batteries. Now they can claim they had one like it but that was not it.
Well, where was theirs? They would have been better off putting the mag light in a tool box in the garage with finger prints and all.
The problem was Burke's prints were on it. and that made them very nervous.
All this is my opinion only, after carefully reading everything I could since the day it happened and thinking about how parents/grandparents relate to children. Children can be so volatile especially siblings. They can hate for no reason. Was this the problem in the family between Burke and Jb? Total jealousy and hatred between Jb and Burke?
I doubt it. According to their housekeeper, nobody in that house did anything. But that doesn't mean he might not have opened it and taken out a clean glass. The glass and tea bag may very well be a red herring anyway. There is no way to prove that tea was brewed in that glass or that it was consumed at the same time as the pineapple or even i JB's presence. It looks like an empty glass with a tea bag- no residue of tea in there. While most Americans do not brew tea in a glass (it is a European custom) they DO drink and possibly brew ICED tea in a glass. And some people drink iced tea all year, not just in the summer. It is said that BR liked iced tea- usually kids like the sweetened kind, not fresh brewed, but no way to prove that in this case. Some people brew a cup of tea and put the spent tea bag in anything handy - like an empty glass- and that may have been all there was to the tea-bag-in-the-glass. I am sure that tea bag and glass, along with the pineapple bowl, was something police wanted to discuss with BR when they asked him to come in to speak to them not that long ago. He refused, of course, or rather LW refused on his behalf. He said BR had "nothing further to add".
I woud think the glass and tea bag had been taken into evidence- and if so it should have been apparent if there was tea residue in the glass. Never saw it mentioned, though.
Occams Razor
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I'm of the belief that whoever molested Jonbenet probably killed her. With that in mind, I can only entertain the BDI theories if Burke himself had been sexually abused. The nature of Jonbenet's injuries (torn hymen, vaginal opening twice the normal size, etc) are more than a normally developing 9-year-old could ever inflict. The key word being "normal". Kids experiment sexually, but it usually ends at looking and light touching...not penetration powerful enough to change the vaginal structure.
If Burke was raping his sister, where did he learn such things from? There had to be some serious denial/neglect going on in that family. At the very least, the parents failed to protect their daughter from sexual abuse. If the tales of Jonbenet's urinary and fecal incontinence are true, she exhibited nearly every sign of child sexual abuse. Somebody knew something. For that alone the parents should've been charged.
(FWIW, I don't think Burke did it. I think the simplest explanation is the correct one in this case).
If Burke was raping his sister, where did he learn such things from? There had to be some serious denial/neglect going on in that family. At the very least, the parents failed to protect their daughter from sexual abuse. If the tales of Jonbenet's urinary and fecal incontinence are true, she exhibited nearly every sign of child sexual abuse. Somebody knew something. For that alone the parents should've been charged.
(FWIW, I don't think Burke did it. I think the simplest explanation is the correct one in this case).
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