Was Burke Involved? # 4

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kanzz

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True, it could be transfer. Unlucky to just be transferred into that particular area and nowhere else on her body though. If it is from BR, why weren't similar fibres found elsewhere?
That's a fair question. I don't really know. Like the brown fibers, it's always been a mystery.
 

DrollForeignFaction

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DrollForeignFaction,

I still allow for the possibility of PDI, but after finding out Patsy is claiming to have deliberately went to JonBenet's bathroom drawer and selected a pair of Burke's long johns, and redressed her in these on Christmas night. I quickly downgraded PDI.

I realized Patsy was covering for BR on both the size-12's and long johns. What were BR's long johns doing in JonBenet's bathroom drawer anyway?

This explains Patsy's version of events on Christmas night: I could not find her pajama bottoms, and the size-12's: I put them into JonBenet's underwear drawer for her to use.

Although the case might be JDI or PDI the GJ does not think so and I doubt either parent would stage a crime-scene where JonBenet is dressed in over sized underwear or male long johns.


.
(Respectfully snipped)
I don't see why the long johns are such a big deal. They're interesting for sure but could easily be nothing. We already knew JB wore B's hand-me-downs so it's not surprising they'd be in her pajama drawer (which is where all the old, comfy, not wearable in public clothes go in my experience). No, it doesn't track with the pageant queen image but I'm not going to discount PDI or JDI (or BDI and J or P staged) because she wasn't staged in something girly and nice. Besides the huge urine stain that obviously came post-mortem they appear to be clean. If that's something JB would usually wear to bed it may not have occurred to the stager that others would find it weird for her to be wearing them. We never even knew she was wearing boy's long johns until a few weeks ago, no one saw a reason to comment on it, not even Kolar.

As for the underpants, it could be she was dressed in overly large underpants by a young boy who wouldn't think about how strange it would look. And yet he went through the trouble of tracking down a brand new clean pair of underwear fresh out if the package for some reason? A new package that wasn't ever found by police - did he hide it? And either by accident or thanks to a keen eye for detail, he puts her in Wednesday underpants to match the last day she was alive, as if to indicate she was wearing them all that day, as Patsy tried to make the police believe. IDK, I think there's more to the big Bloomies than carelessness.
 

GINK

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you all don't get it...... this is a case protected by the specifics in the 1st amendment. your not supposed to know, this is about protecting the masses (public in it's entirety.] Nixon was once told, if u lose the tv audience, you lose the country,,,, well that is true to this day. Imagine 300 million people get told that media was reason a child was sacrificed..... well you have a major loss of trust on your hands...... that's what I know about xmas 1996.
 

GINK

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This isn't entertainment, though so many act like it is......this is fact not supposed to be popular....it's real pain, you just don't know it
 

Sunshine4Me

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I don't think it's odd that Burke was sent back to school after the murder. If my son had a terrible secret to hide I would think trying to make him look as normal as possible would be the best way to make him look like he had no secret to hide, that would include sending him back to school after a proper mourning period. I don't think Burke would tell on himself knowing what the consequences of that would mean for his parents after they had lied for him, and for himself being stigmatized and branded as a killer. Children can and often do keep dark secrets hidden from others, even for a lifetime. But I don't agree with covering for him and sending him to school to be around other children, I only mean that I can see how the Ramsey's would think it was the best way to keep suspicion off Burke as much as they possibly could given the circumstances. Obviously no one was buying their ransom note, and no one except Lou Smit was buying the Intruder scenario, if Lou Smit was even on the case at that point. I think there was a need to make the 3 people in the house look as innocent and normal as they could, the Ramsey's knowing attention was being focused on them, and that meant Burke would need to return to his normal routine, especially since they knew he was in no danger. And with all the scrutiny the Ramsey's were under I don't think Burke would have lashed out at anyone else, he would have to know he'd be caught if he did anything again.

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Miz Adventure

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Sunshine: You are making a lot of assumptions.

Are you saying that if you had discovered your 9 year old son had garrotted your 6 year old daughter you would feel comfortable in sending him back to school? That wouldn't be fair on the parents of the other kids in the school, would it?

A kid with temper enough to bash his sister's brains in is not fit to be with other children, unless closely supervised at all times.

I certainly would not wish my daughter to be a classmate of another child who could do something like that.

The chances he may do something similar again (if unsupervised) would probably be quite high. Would you really want to take that chance?

A child who could do something like that would need therapy - and lots of it - plus all kinds of counselling, which I truly believe could have happened in this case.
 

Aburt

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I think one thing can shed absolute light on this; BR's medical files. But I have more questions.

1. Who ate pineapple with milk? Burke or just JonBenet?
2. Was the pineapple cut up in the fridge of did it require to open a can or chop it up? Some of this the children couldn;t do on their own.
3. What is all that food out on the counter? They got up, went to the Fleet's party at 5 and returned home 930/1000. Why is all that food out? Bagels, and other plates of food.
4. I can imagine PR packing for Michigan and JBR and BR running around the house... there was the partially torn gift in the basement, the gift wrap was torn as if a child wanted to see what was wrapped.
5. Just in general, the house was a mess. Rich people with a housekeeper, home all day on Christmas and no one picks up anything? Leaves food on the counter to go bad?
6. Is there any knowledge about BR going to therapy? It is withing the realm of possibility that a skilled psychologist can create false memories and BR thinks he's innocent.
 

Userid

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Auburt,

With regard to number 2, I asked this same question not too long ago (nobody knew exactly). One theory is that the pineapple was already cut up (a day or so before), stored in a plastic container, and put in the fridge. But you're right: if the pineapple was cut that night, right before being prepared/eaten, then a child couldn't have performed that feat -- it would have had to have been an adult. To my knowledge, it has never been proven that police found any more pineapple in the fridge, or a container/plastic ziplock bag that may have contained the pineapple beforehand.

Number 3: great question. You know, I wonder if they prepared the food after getting home from the White's party. I know I've done this many times after a party, a wedding, etc. -- because for whatever reason, many times I won't eat enough to get full at a social gathering. This may be common in the sense that, you want to make sure there is enough food for everyone else at the party (i.e. not impose) and that wedding food in general isn't normally appetizing and/or filling (portion-wise).

Number 4: another great question. Was this the catalyst for the attack/head blow? Was JBR discovered by someone as she tried to unwrap a gift?

Number 5: it would make sense that the housekeepers were given Christmas (and the few days prior) off, so the messy house doesn't really stand out to me, but I could be wrong.
 

Miz Adventure

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I think one thing can shed absolute light on this; BR's medical files. But I have more questions.

1. Who ate pineapple with milk? Burke or just JonBenet?
2. Was the pineapple cut up in the fridge of did it require to open a can or chop it up? Some of this the children couldn;t do on their own.
3. What is all that food out on the counter? They got up, went to the Fleet's party at 5 and returned home 930/1000. Why is all that food out? Bagels, and other plates of food.
4. I can imagine PR packing for Michigan and JBR and BR running around the house... there was the partially torn gift in the basement, the gift wrap was torn as if a child wanted to see what was wrapped.
5. Just in general, the house was a mess. Rich people with a housekeeper, home all day on Christmas and no one picks up anything? Leaves food on the counter to go bad?
6. Is there any knowledge about BR going to therapy? It is withing the realm of possibility that a skilled psychologist can create false memories and BR thinks he's innocent.

This is the first time that I've heard about milk being eaten with pineapple. That sounds like an odd combination to me.

Patsy stated it was pre-prepared pineapple from a supermarket. The kind you buy in a container, where somebody else has already done all the work.

The food on the counter is probably for all those guests that the R's had invited over to share in their grief. A kind of 'kidnapping party'.

Yes the upstairs rooms were a mess. It seems the couple were only interested in the public rooms downstairs. They had to be perfect. Outwardly perfect, inwardly a mess, a bit like PR herself.

I think the housekeeper only did what she was asked to do - the bare minimum. She had obviously never been requested to pick up clothes or tidy the place up.

I understand the toilets were pretty rank as well.

As for BR going to therapy - he probably did but it seems that it could be a closely guarded secret.
 

UKGuy

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(Respectfully snipped)
I don't see why the long johns are such a big deal. They're interesting for sure but could easily be nothing. We already knew JB wore B's hand-me-downs so it's not surprising they'd be in her pajama drawer (which is where all the old, comfy, not wearable in public clothes go in my experience). No, it doesn't track with the pageant queen image but I'm not going to discount PDI or JDI (or BDI and J or P staged) because she wasn't staged in something girly and nice. Besides the huge urine stain that obviously came post-mortem they appear to be clean. If that's something JB would usually wear to bed it may not have occurred to the stager that others would find it weird for her to be wearing them. We never even knew she was wearing boy's long johns until a few weeks ago, no one saw a reason to comment on it, not even Kolar.

As for the underpants, it could be she was dressed in overly large underpants by a young boy who wouldn't think about how strange it would look. And yet he went through the trouble of tracking down a brand new clean pair of underwear fresh out if the package for some reason? A new package that wasn't ever found by police - did he hide it? And either by accident or thanks to a keen eye for detail, he puts her in Wednesday underpants to match the last day she was alive, as if to indicate she was wearing them all that day, as Patsy tried to make the police believe. IDK, I think there's more to the big Bloomies than carelessness.

DrollForeignFaction,

I don't see why the long johns are such a big deal. They're interesting for sure but could easily be nothing.
From memory they are not bloodstained or contain forensic residue from any prior worn underwear.

So I assume they are clean on after being redressed in the size-12's?

The long johns are such a big deal precisely because they are Burke's, that they might be Burke's hand-me-downs, works both ways, i.e. BR justifying redressing JonBenet in his long johns. The speculation does not arise if the long johns were not male, and Patsy would not need to offer a version of events to cover their use.

The long johns are not a smoking gun, but fit neatly into a BDI that has Patsy explaining away Burke's crime-scene behavior by her own actions, consider the size-12's.

If the case were really PDI or JDI JonBenet would not be wearing over sized underwear or male long johns.

One thing I cannot explain, step forward Kolar, how did BR access the size-12's, i.e. did he go down to the basement to fetch them?

.
 

UKGuy

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The problem that I see with assuming that Burke did the redressing, is that fibres from the shirt that John was wearing that night were found in JB's genital region. So, to me, either he was involved in the redressing, or he was involved in doing something to JB before she died. :(

TinaD,
JonBenet was wiped down after being redressed in the size-12's and bleeding internally.
Search Warrant, 01/30/1997, Excerpt
Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that he observed []red stains in the crotch area[/b] of the panties that the child was wearing at the time that the child's body was subjected to the external visual examination. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that the red stain appeared to be consistent with blood. Det. Arndt further informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in the area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's public area having been wiped by a cloth.

Assuming the fibers found belong to JR's Israel manufactured shirt then he wiped down JonBenet simply by pulling her underwear down?

i.e. after the fact staging?


.
 

HarmonyE.

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As to the pineapple and the bagels - my understanding is that the bagels were brought by the victims' advocates who arrived after Patsy had invited her posse.

As noted above, the pineapple was fresh, but cut at the supermarket according to Patsy, so easy for a child to deal with. The pineapple and milk thing is very weird. I should think the milk would curdle pretty quickly from the acidic nature of the pineapple. ( Pina Coladas are made with coconut milk, not dairy milk.) I don't know, maybe it's okay if you eat it very quickly. Still a strange combo. But then again, what wasn't strange about these people?
 

Aburt

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JonBenet liked to eat them with milk, maybe almost like cereal? Nothing is in my kitchen without my knowing. What were the pineapples in? In a plastic container?

So they put out food for the posse? OMG.

I understand and there's a formal part of a house that remains clean and tidy in case visitors show up but those rooms were a mess. But maybe that's just me. I keep a clean house.

I also cant tell from the picture of the bedroom if PR slept on top of the bed or underneath the covers. Almost looks like she never went to bed.

I believe their heir grief was real but that's logical even if BR did it. They are still grieving the loss of their little girl.

If BDI, I believe Burke went into treatment after. Memories can be erased. And som skids act up at home, but keep it up in public. It all hinges on the medical files. Also, JBR went to the pediatrician a lot. How come those files were never leaked? Everything leaks eventually.

If an intruder did it (assuming he gained entry not through the window, impossible due to spider web), maybe he tried to stuff her in the suitcase but couldn't fit it through the window.
 

Miz Adventure

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Even if there wasn't, it's still good to disprove it all the more by bringing up the subject; it should not be taboo.

Understood. However, regarding the IDI theory, we've been there and done that and found it to be baloney.

It's a bit like being told the world is flat.
 

kanzz

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As to the pineapple and the bagels - my understanding is that the bagels were brought by the victims' advocates who arrived after Patsy had invited her posse.

As noted above, the pineapple was fresh, but cut at the supermarket according to Patsy, so easy for a child to deal with. The pineapple and milk thing is very weird. I should think the milk would curdle pretty quickly from the acidic nature of the pineapple. ( Pina Coladas are made with coconut milk, not dairy milk.) I don't know, maybe it's okay if you eat it very quickly. Still a strange combo. But then again, what wasn't strange about these people?

Pineapple (or pretty much any fruit) and milk or half-and-half, cream, etc. is a southern or familial thing for the most part. But you're right that the acidity of pineapple might cause the milk to curdle if it sits too long, depending on the freshness and sweetness of the fruit. But it doesn't happen immediately. When I lived in NC, people ate all kinds of fruit with milk or half-and-half on it.. and usually sugar. My mother did as well. It's actually pretty good.
 

UKGuy

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Pineapple (or pretty much any fruit) and milk or half-and-half, cream, etc. is a southern or familial thing for the most part. But you're right that the acidity of pineapple might cause the milk to curdle if it sits too long, depending on the freshness and sweetness of the fruit. But it doesn't happen immediately. When I lived in NC, people ate all kinds of fruit with milk or half-and-half on it.. and usually sugar. My mother did as well. It's actually pretty good.


kanzz,
My understanding is that its Pineapple and condensed milk, which is a favorite of mine.

Left out it only stays fresh for a couple of hours. You can still eat the pineapple as it is still sweet but the milk is bitter.

.
 

kanzz

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kanzz,
My understanding is that its Pineapple and condensed milk, which is a favorite of mine.

Left out it only stays fresh for a couple of hours. You can still eat the pineapple as it is still sweet but the milk is bitter.

.
UKGuy - Oh yeah, condensed milk makes it especially yummy. But the people I've seen eat fruit that way usually used half-and-half.. or milk if they didn't have that, as condensed milk just isn't something we often keep on hand. And then they ate it right away.
IDK if the bowl in the R house was said to have contained milk or condensed. I thought it was just milk. Either way, I think it was intended to be consumed right away.. don't you think?
 

Annapurna

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Do we have any trustworthy sources that confirm the presence of milk/cream with the pineapple? I've long heard this but I'm still not sure if its a fact or not.

One thing i thought of: it is possible the cream could be for the acidity. My mom likes pineapple but rarely eats it because it makes her mouth tingle. Perhaps JBR or BR had a similar reaction? The milk might make it easier, sort of like coffee.
 
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