Was the lawsuit really a motive for allegedly framing Avery?

Discussion in 'Netflix Series: Making A Murderer' started by Limaes, Jan 26, 2016.

  1. missy1974

    missy1974 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,385
    Likes Received:
    721
    Trophy Points:
    113
  2. missy1974

    missy1974 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,385
    Likes Received:
    721
    Trophy Points:
    113
  3. pcrum12

    pcrum12 Member

    Messages:
    791
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Totally Agree!
     
  4. Itsmevkb

    Itsmevkb Member

    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I can't agree with this enough.
     
  5. Limaes

    Limaes Active Member

    Messages:
    1,244
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    38
    It has been like one big social experiment. When I first heard about "Making a Murderer", and who the subject was, I genuinely believed it was going to be about SA's childhood. That, to me, would be more appropriate considering the title.

    Sometimes I think Netflix should have held off with the release until April 1st.
     
    ACJL likes this.
  6. missy1974

    missy1974 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,385
    Likes Received:
    721
    Trophy Points:
    113
  7. missy1974

    missy1974 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,385
    Likes Received:
    721
    Trophy Points:
    113
    the 4th ..... Judy Dvorak deposition

    http://www.postcrescent.com/story/n...ry-lawsuit-video-deputy-judy-dvorak/81549194/

    uhmm her name is listed as Judy Dvorak Yanda

    to refresh everyone's memory.... the cat incident.... his buddy that "tattled" on himself and SA, and was never charged with the same crime that he was also a "party to", was Jerry YANDA!

    Screw the 6 degree's of separation in this case... it's like 1 or 2 at the max lol
     
    Haze and e0nyx like this.
  8. dexter75

    dexter75 New Member

    Messages:
    2,208
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    0
    VERY well put Duchess!

    Excellent points! ALL of them!!
     
  9. Sarah

    Sarah Member

    Messages:
    194
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    JMO, but I think it would be very naive to discount the impact of the lawsuit and the timing of it on the case and the overall investigation.
    It's a fact, it was happening and there's no way that the prospect of it didn't have some impact on the behaviour and thought processes of both LE and SA.

    However, I'm not convinced that it's as big a motivator for out and out framing as some people believe.
    The "Hey, SA's going to sue us, so let's murder somebody and set him up for it" line of thinking is just ludicrous to me and disrespectful to both TH and her family. (I'm not suggesting anyone here has said that BTW)
    Without any solid evidence, I also think it's a bit of a stretch to imagine the pending lawsuit would be sufficient for LE to find TH already deceased, cremate her remains and haul that whole load of evidence over to Avery's.

    HOWEVER I absolutely believe that SA was a a thorn in the side of Manitowoc County LE.
    There was plenty of history there with prior convictions and complaints against him and now with this lawsuit he was publicly humiliating them, making them look incompetent and walking away smelling of roses with a huge amount of cash.
    TH disappears, initial evidence points towards SA as a viable suspect and I can absolutely see them zoning in on him to the exclusion of all others, rushing things through without following proper procedure and perhaps even 'enhancing' some pieces of evidence to make sure that he doesn't 'wriggle out of' this one. It certainly explains some of the more troubling aspects of this case, and although it doesn't change my view that he's still the most likely perpetrator it doesn't make it right.

    Of course, the other side of the argument is that it's awfully convenient for LE that SA just happened to pick that time to commit a murder. Indeed, why would he do something like that when things were turning around for him and he had so much to look forward to?
    Firstly, I subscribe to the line of thinking that the lawsuit was making him feel powerful, superior to LE and in some ways untouchable. I also don't believe that SA is much of a planner. I think he's impulsive and is more likely to act on things happening in the moment rather than looking to the future - so the prospect of receiving that payout in the future would not IMO be sufficient to suppress impulses in the present.

    Secondly, I believe that there were two other things that happened that day, totally coincidental and independent of the lawsuit that contributed to his frame of mind at that particular moment in time.

    He was supposed to be seeing Jodi and we all know that for whatever reason that didn't work out.
    We can only speculate, but I'd imagine that he'd been excited and looking forward to that and that it quickly turned to disappointment and frustration as he was back and forth on phone calls trying to work out what was happening.
    He'd also booked the Autotrader appointment with Teresa. We know that he'd tried to call her directly a couple of times but didn't manage to actually get through to speak to her.
    I think most people would be starting to get frustrated and fed up in those circumstances, so again we can only speculate, but I'd suggest that he was pretty wound up by that afternoon.
    By others' testimony and by his own admission, SA had a short temper at the best of times.

    We also know that he couldn't do his usual drive around to cool off because waiting for TH and waiting to find out whether he had meet Jodi had him tied to the house.
    All in all, I suspect that his frame of mind was such that it would have taken less than usual in order for him to 'snap' that day - and the timing with the lawsuit really was purely coincidental.
     
    Angela_Beckett likes this.
  10. proudfootz

    proudfootz Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    767
    Likes Received:
    600
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Sorry to resurrect this thread years later, but wasn't sure where to put this article about the lawsuit (I haven't seen this before today).

    [quotation snipped from full article follows]

    Before Avery’s legal team had deposed a single witness, there was an arsenal of ammunition from the AG’s office supporting a section 1983 claim. Meanwhile, Avery’s story had entered the national consciousness and Avery himself had become a statewide symbol of a broken criminal justice system in need of repair.

    Ultimately, Kelly and Glynn deposed almost forty witnesses on Avery’s behalf. Each set of testimony was more damning than the last and supported the allegation that Avery had been the victim of aggravated constitutional violations. Legally speaking, it was a bloodbath.

    “I think the depiction of the Steven Avery story in the [Netflix] series is a positive good,” says Kelly. “It reveals the underbelly of the criminal justice system. Although this is a spectacular case in itself, these operations and biases and countervailing forces that go on in the criminal justice system are daily events. And they require us to think twice about what’s important in that system.”

    As the discovery period progressed in Avery’s civil suit, two moments in particular sent a charge through his attorneys.

    First, they elicited testimony revealing that Manitowoc County detectives had begun round-the-clock surveillance of Gregory Allen two weeks before the sexual assault on Beernsten in 1985. However, surveillance of Allen was temporarily suspended on the day of the assault because police resources were redirected to another case.

    What’s more, Beernsten continued to receive threatening phone calls after Avery’s arrest, which county sheriff Tom Kocourek dismissed as immaterial. Worst of all, just days after Avery’s arrest, a Manitowoc County detective informed Kocourek that Allen was not under surveillance when the attack occurred, and it was likely that the wrong man was in custody. The detective was told to steer clear of matters outside his jurisdiction.

    A second high point during discovery was equally incriminating. Beernsten had identified Avery as her assailant using an image array of suspects. But deposition testimony confirmed that the sheriff’s department had used a booking photo of Avery to generate its forensic composite drawing.

    [​IMG]
    Mug shots of Steven Avery in 1985.

    The misstep? The mug shot that inspired the drawing was taken in January of 1985, and Avery’s appearance at that time was dramatically different from how he looked when he was arrested in July. Meanwhile, the department possessed and was aware of a 1983 booking photo of Allen that looked a lot like Avery’s composite drawing, but omitted it from the image array Beernsten reviewed.

    “Those were the two moments when we knew—to a degree that you rarely know in a civil right’s suit—that we had the defendants, ice-cold,” recalls Kelly. “I will tell you that in my mind and [co-counsel] Steve Glynn’s mind, if we had to go to trial, the only issue was going to be: ‘how much?’


    The Two Sides of the Truth | Boston College Law School Magazine
     
    guruagain and missy1974 like this.
  11. YIPSISTHEMAN

    YIPSISTHEMAN New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    3


    There are a lot of misconceptions about Avery's lawsuit. So many people have written, "He was about to get $36,000,000." And that's just not true.

    First off, this lawsuit was no slam dunk for Steven Avery. There was no guarantee he was going to win that lawsuit. We all know that Avery served 18 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit. But is that Manitowoc County's fault? He was found guilty by a jury of his peers. And why was that? It's because the victim in this case (a prominent local business women) pointed Avery out in court and said, "That's the man who assaulted me." It then became a he said/she said situation. On one hand we have a well-known respected member of the community. And on the other hand we have a local **** with a long history of criminal behavior - some of it violent. Who do you think the jury's going to believe? They believed the victim. And Avery got screwed. But proving that Manitowoc County was the reason was not going to be easy. The prevailing thought at the time was that everyone would settle on an amount around $2,000,000. Avery's attorney probably would have gotten 25% of that. The defendants probably would have weighed the cost of fighting it against the prospect of settling. And if they could settle for less than the cost of fighting it, then it's really a no-brainer.

    If you look at the lawsuit itself, you'll see that there were actually three defendants named; Manitowoc County, Thomas Kocourek and Denis Vogel. But the lawsuit was broken up into two parts. Avery was pursuing compensatory damages against all three defendants in the amount of $1,000,000 minimum to $18,000,000 maximum. In addition he was also asking for punitive damages in the amount of $1,000,000 minimum to $18,000,000 maximum - but this was against Kocourek and Vogel individually. He was not seeking punitive damages against Manitowoc County. So had Avery won, the absolute maximum amount that Manitowoc County would have been on the hook for was $6,000,000.

    But Manitowoc County (like probably every other county in the country) had insurance to cover things like this. And once the case was settled, the insurance company paid it. Manitowoc County was never in danger of "going bankrupt." Thomas Kocourek's insurance Company was refusing to accept liability for him. But Manitowoc County did not have the same issue with their insurance company.

    And as someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, arresting Steven Avery wouldn't make the lawsuit go away.

    Also as someone else pointed out, (assuming that Avery is in fact guilty of this crime) he probably thought he was untouchable - which of course is stupid thinking. But that seems very plausible.
     
    Angela_Beckett likes this.
  12. proudfootz

    proudfootz Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    767
    Likes Received:
    600
    Trophy Points:
    93
    IIRC the county's insurers weren't necessarily going to cover them for malicious acts. As further actions (or inactions) by persons connected to SA's prosecution and imprisonment came to light during the discovery process and revealed by depositions, more individuals could face civil and criminal charges.

    The fact that the Calumet Sheriff was tapped to run the investigation due to the conflict of interest by Manitowoc suggests to me that there was awareness that this was, in fact, a big deal. This would seem to indicate that officials were aware that persons involved in this lawsuit would have motive to engage in further misconduct.

    All MOO.
     
  13. Derpina10

    Derpina10 New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    3
    picking up this thread (again)
    ***This is my opinion/theory on the matter***

    I think after the first arrest when SA sued the county and PD. The county and PD knew they would have to pay the lawsuit if SA won. They were not able to afford such a high amount so they compiled this plan (TH's murder) to frame SA. In order to not pay out the lawsuit, thus getting rid of the pest/problem (SA). To me this theory makes sense because it wasn't long after he filed the lawsuit is when TH was murdered.
     
    RANCH likes this.
  14. YIPSISTHEMAN

    YIPSISTHEMAN New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    3
    The County did not have to worry about not being able to afford it because their insurance company was going to pay it if they lost or settled. And even if they did want to frame him, that wouldn't make the lawsuit go away. So they had no motive to frame him.
     
  15. MTSnowBunny

    MTSnowBunny Member

    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    13
    What insurance company? I've seen this 3x's on this same thread with no real explanation of this insurance company that would fork over the payout.
     
  16. proudfootz

    proudfootz Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    767
    Likes Received:
    600
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Aside from the financial aspect, there is also the chagrin of the criminal conspiracy to frame Steven for a crime committed by Gregory Allen would be a strong motivator. Criminals often will go to extreme lengths to cover up for their crimes, or seek revenge on those who cross them.
     
  17. YIPSISTHEMAN

    YIPSISTHEMAN New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    3
    RANCH likes this.
  18. YIPSISTHEMAN

    YIPSISTHEMAN New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    3
    But what was the conspiracy? The victim described her attacker. And the police said, "That sounds like Steven Avery." And why did they say that? Because the description sounded like Steven Avery - a well known felon they were very familiar with. The victim identified him (incorrectly obviously) and pointed him out in court saying, "That's the man who assaulted me." That's powerful evidence. And the jury believed her. That's not a conspiracy. That's a horrible mistake on the victim's part.
     
    Angela_Beckett likes this.
  19. proudfootz

    proudfootz Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    767
    Likes Received:
    600
    Trophy Points:
    93
    We can only guess why a law enforcement employee might have said 'That sounds like Steven Avery' when he had never even been accused, charged or found guilty of a similar crime.

    But it is readily apparent that rather than having a professional sketch artist use the rape survivor's description they had some random employee do their first sketch ever which appears to be a tracing of a photograph of Steven Avery.

    And it is fairly obvious that some sort of animus was behind the dismissal of more than a dozen witnesses that proved Steven was nowhere in the neighborhood when the assault was perpetrated.

    According to the article a few posts up this very page, the facts supported Steven's lawsuit and it was just a matter for how much the settlement would be for the malicious behavior of law enforcement employees.
     
  20. captnchuck67

    captnchuck67 Member

    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    13
    I have a friend who is right now getting out after 8 years in the IDOC on an actual innocencw case as adjudicated by the 7th circuit. The figure he was quoted was around $25 mil and he is dealing with both the local,county and state in his case. So YEah he was goingto get that much ,SA though would have been asked to make a donation to the group that got his release. Standard is usual 1/3 of the amount,don't have to but after all
     
    proudfootz likes this.

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice