Weekend Discussion Thread 3/24-26/2012

[matou]

They both don't wear glasses in their earlier profile pictures, but that can be put down to vanity. Also, they have access to all kinds of free medical care in jail that they don't have to try and fit into a busy schedule, so I bet they have the best glasses our money can buy.

TLM was wearing glasses when she left court May 20th 2009.

 

[Juris_Prudence]

I'm thinking there was some evidence on TS's body. The charge is sexual assault with bodily harm, right? If there was no evidence of the harm and they only had TLM's word, I don't think they would have charged the "bodily harm" part.

Salem

Someone might have mentioned this already not sure as I'm still reading but...

a sexual assault causing bodily harm could be as simple as a threat of harm (not to minimize any aspect of sexual assault!). But it could be a threat to the victim or to someone the victim knows, loves and cares about.

Alternatively, it occurred to me that perhaps the bodily harm part may have stemmed from the fact that someone broke the child's rib(s) which led to the lacerated liver. Just thinking out loud here. I think I found the :moo:emoticon too (hope that works). I'm posting the section of the CCC which deals with the charge in question below for reference.


272. (1) Every person commits an offence who, in committing a sexual assault,

(a) carries, uses or threatens to use a weapon or an imitation of a weapon;

(b) threatens to cause bodily harm to a person other than the complainant;

(c) causes bodily harm to the complainant; or

(d) is a party to the offence with any other person.

Found here: http://www.cnpea.ca/abuse_crimes.htm

 

[dar107]

I found this while looking for some definition on the sexual assault causing bodily harm, it lists what the crown needs to prove and goes on to define each point, really an interesting read,

http://www.cjc-ccm.gc.ca/english/lawyers_en.asp?selMenu=lawyers_so_offence272_1c_en.asp

Offence 272.1.c - Sexual Assault Causing Bodily Harm (s. 272(1)(c))

[1]NOA is charged with sexual assault causing bodily harm. The charge reads:
(read relevant parts of indictment or count)

[2] You must find NOA not guilty of sexual assault causing bodily harm unless the Crown has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that NOA is the person who committed the offence on the date and in the place described in the indictment55. Specifically, the Crown must prove each of the following essential elements of the offence beyond a reasonable doubt:
1. that NOA applied force to NOC,
2. that NOA intentionally applied the force;
3. that NOC did not consent to the force that NOA applied;
4. that NOA knew that NOC did not consent to the force that NOA applied;
5. that the force that NOA applied took place in circumstances of a sexual nature; and
6. that NOA caused bodily harm to NOC.

Unless you are satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that the Crown has proved all these essential elements, you must find NOA not guilty of sexual assault causing bodily harm.
If you are satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt of all these essential elements [and you have no reasonable doubt56 after considering the defence(s) (specify defences) about which I will instruct you], you must find NOA guilty of sexual assault causing bodily harm.

[3] To determine whether the Crown has proved these essential elements, consider the following questions:

[4]First * Did NOA apply force to NOC?
Force includes any physical contact with another person, even a gentle touch. The contact may be direct, for example, touching a person with a hand or other part of the body, or indirect, for example, touching a person with an object. So, whenever I refer to the application of force, I mean any physical contact.
(review relevant evidence and relate to issue)
Unless you are satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that NOA applied force to NOC, you must find NOA not guilty. Your deliberations would be over.
If you are satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that NOA applied force to NOC, you must go on to the next question.

bbm This is just one of the questions listed, I do not think there would have to be proof of any major injury to Tori to prove "bodily harm", the fact that she was a child and if the sexual assault is proven, it goes without doubt that it would have caused her harm.

 

[flipflop]

Sorry if this has been suggested as of late, just came on and haven't caught up reading yet. MR was more than likely contacting wreckers to see if anyone had a backseat he could get, to replace the blood stained one he disposed of. I wouldn't be surprise to learn if he also had plans to do another one of his amateur, fancy paint jobs. Thankfully he was arrested before he had the chance. It would be interesting to know if LE looked in his car before or after they showed up at his door on May 15, and noticed there was a backseat with holes cut in it. LE seems pretty adamant there was a backseat during the abduction, sexual assault and murder. I am sure they also have TLM's word on that also, but will be interesting to know what they knew about MR's car on May 15th. JMHO

Im guessing they already had the description of the car off of the surv.video, his car in the driveway would be an obvious match. Then in the interview the investigator strikes up conversation by telling MR that his car is nice (lol nice, really!!!!)....I guess that was to get him talking about his car.

(snipped from interview at the beginning of the car talk)
JOHNSON: notice yours is nice and it’s a little older but
RAFFERTY: no it’s got a lotta needs a paint job and a bunch of other stuff but
JOHNSON: looks like it’s got a paint job on there
RAFFERTY: yeah but (laugh)
JOHNSON: you painted it
RAFFERTY: paint job from hell
JOHNSON: yeah
RAFFERTY: it’s on it’s way it’s a work in progress
JOHNSON: yeah

Rafferty then changes the subject back to who he knows...end of car talk!!!!


On the way to knock on the door, the two officers spotted his car, a Honda with a bad paint job and a spoiler, and thought it looked like one seen in the security video from near Tori's school.

http://www.canada.com/news/Blatchfo...imal+child+ominous+portent/6351561/story.html

 

[robynhood]

....this is my opinon .....I just listen to Micheal Rafferty's frist interview .....wow was he ever lieing ...he had a picture of Tori in his house ...not to mention how it scoured our Tornto papers & news .....and I am not in Woodstock ...his reference to "the girl " numerous times really caught my attention ....and not to know anyone in wODDSTOCK WHEN HE HAS BEEN WITH SO MANY WOMEN ...lol i DO NOT THINK SO ....BUT SURE ENOUGH HE KNEW TERRI LYNN'S name and her mother Carol and how messed up she was ...that was added nicely .....he was not into drugs ???....long hmmmmmmmmm I agree with the above posters ....the defense makes no sense....Any adult would wonder if a child from a school is brought into their car ????not to mention how many times he drove by that school that is caught on video ..hmmmmmmm again .... ..than they drive the unknown child to London to get a hammer ???...when he is a handyman ...makes no sense ....I beleieve the opening statement from the Crown and it is laid out carefully in chapters to tell the story and this STORY is about Tori and how her family has lost there child any PARENTS worst nightmare ....I think we need to listen carefully as the Crown said the story will be told >>>chapter by chapter and I Pray that this will tell a story without any REASONABLE doubt what happened April 2009 ! ....and that video of Tori is heart wenching ....Let us see the Justice that Tori and her fsmily deserve !....I hope you all agree ...???...this is terribly upsetting to say the least ....robynhood !

 

[antiquegirl]

Im guessing they already had the description of the car off of the surv.video, his car in the driveway would be an obvious match.

(RSBM)

They did notice the similarity, but I don't think they got as good a look at it as they wanted:

The interview and the car left the detectives wanting more. The next day, they came back to take a picture of Rafferty's Honda to compare with the car in the security video, but it wasn't in the driveway.

http://www.canada.com/news/Blatchfo...imal+child+ominous+portent/6351561/story.html

 

[dilbert]

....this is my opinon .....I just listen to Micheal Rafferty's frist interview .....wow was he ever lieing ...he had a picture of Tori in his house ...not to mention how it scoured our Tornto papers & news .....and I am not in Woodstock ...his reference to "the girl " numerous times really caught my attention ....and not to know anyone in wODDSTOCK WHEN HE HAS BEEN WITH SO MANY WOMEN ...lol i DO NOT THINK SO ....BUT SURE ENOUGH HE KNEW TERRI LYNN'S name and her mother Carol and how messed up she was ...that was added nicely .....he was not into drugs ???....long hmmmmmmmmm I agree with the above posters ....the defense makes no sense....Any adult would wonder if a child from a school is brought into their car ????not to mention how many times he drove by that school that is caught on video ..hmmmmmmm again .... ..than they drive the unknown child to London to get a hammer ???...when he is a handyman ...makes no sense ....I beleieve the opening statement from the Crown and it is laid out carefully in chapters to tell the story and this STORY is about Tori and how her family has lost there child any PARENTS worst nightmare ....I think we need to listen carefully as the Crown said the story will be told >>>chapter by chapter and I Pray that this will tell a story without any REASONABLE doubt what happened April 2009 ! ....and that video of Tori is heart wenching ....Let us see the Justice that Tori and her fsmily deserve !....I hope you all agree ...???...this is terribly upsetting to say the least ....robynhood !

The hammer was bought in Guelph.

 

[robynhood]

...exactly my point thanks Dilert...he drives all the way to Guelph to for a hammer ..????.and he is a handyman ..doing odd jobs all the time ?...hmmm...and how would Terri lynn know the area where Tori was murdered ?,,,,she does not even drive ..????.....and we are to believe the defense that it all was Terri Lynn who was the driving force...I know she is no Princess of character but to suggest Micheal Rafferty just came back to HIS CAr to see Tori dead...hmmm is anyone else not finding this hard to understand aside from me ??????....wondering.....my opnion again...robynhood !

 

[antiquegirl]

...exactly my point thanks Dilert...he drives all the way to Guelph to for a hammer ..????.and he is a handyman ..doing odd jobs all the time ?...hmmm...and how would Terri lynn know the area where Tori was murdered ?,,,,she does not even drive ..????.....and we are to believe the defense that it all was Terri Lynn who was the driving force...I know she is no Princess of character but to suggest Micheal Rafferty just came back to HIS CAr to see Tori dead...hmmm is anyone else not finding this hard to understand aside from me ??????....wondering.....my opnion again...robynhood !

(BBM)

Apparently, it was TLM who was in need of a hammer.

JMO

 

[swedie]

MR wasn't exactly in the position to scrap his car. It's not like he had a job or any money to buy another one, even if it was another beater. And who would buy it with that makeshift paint job and no backseat? He probably would get more from a wrecker for it. Besides, he didn't think he had anything to worry about. TM was on the radar as the person responsible according to the press and TLM was holding up under questioning in jail.

Other than the car, it appears he did get rid of everything he considered to be evidence. And that car represented his freedom. It's all he had really.

It wasn't until the detectives showed up at his door that he started to worry. And that's when the panic set in but it was too late. He was arrested 4 days later.

MOO

Not all wrecking yards crush vehicle right away either. If the owner or crew thinks there may be some usable parts, fenders, parts under the hood, back seat :saythat:, they will keep it for some time before crushing it. MR may have been aware of that. He would rather have a vehicle to pay visit to TLM in juvie to get the latest and zip around town in. Maybe he needed it to look for under the table work, he confessed to the interviewing police about. Funny how he admitted to that crime :floorlaugh:. "Really officer I'm a law abiding citizen. I'll tell you how messed up people are in Woodstock, even give you names and I'll tell you how I work under the table but I won't tell you how TLM sucked me into helping her abduct a child to murder, cause ya know, I'm innocent but you scare me and so does TLM and that's why I didn't tell anyone". It's called whitewashing or evading. He may have needed his scrap mobile to scope out and abduct other kids. :moo:

I bet he was shopping for a 2004 grey Honda Civic car seat when calling the wreckers. Can't imagine they would be that plentiful. anic::nerves::moo:

 

[jbrady]

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/23/19543041.html

Ah perfect thank you!!! This aligns more with what I thought would make a good defense. Still though, can't wait to see what's to come since he does say that MR comes to understand she was there for a drug debt before being murdered. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but when you have the power to make up any scenario, why make one up that makes you look bad (ie then and there he could have turned it all around, he wasn't powerless at that point, etc.)? Time will tell...

 

[swedie]

<rsbm>

Not giving TLM a lot of credit here, but she had the same option that MTR had ... lawyer up and plead Not Guilty. Had she done that, we might now be in another long trial with defence attorneys claiming TLM was in the video, but she and Tori parted in the area of the rest home .. and, oh yeah .. had to go to HD to buy a hammer to fix some things around the house.

JMO

IMO TLM could have made up lies and possibly cleared herself. She could have admitted to being in the video but made up a story how MR asked her to walk to the school and get Tori, as he was to drive her home after school as per TM request. TLM could have said she did what MR asked because they were friends, left Tori with MR in his car and went on her merry little way. She could have pointed the full blame on MR. Too bad it did happen that way. Should it had gone that way, LE may have gotten a full confession from MR then.

MR would have to admit up to going to the HD with TLM in order to get that video of TLM as proof. So yes I will say again, I do believe TLM has finally come forward and told the whole truth and nothing but the truth in MR's trial. Woman scorned or not, she made a moral choice and for that I am thankful. I remember RS also thanking her during her sentencing. That must have been sooo hard for him to do, but I understand where he was coming from. If it was not for her confession, and Detective Smyth keen observations and dedicated efforts, our little Tori may not have ever been brought to rest with some decency. JMHO

RIP Beautiful child.:angel: :heartluv:

 

[swedie]

I'm thinking there was some evidence on TS's body. The charge is sexual assault with bodily harm, right? If there was no evidence of the harm and they only had TLM's word, I don't think they would have charged the "bodily harm" part.

Salem

Excellent point Salem! :tyou: I've tried to get this point across before but I guess it fell on deaf ears. That or got lost in my long winded posts. Thank you for clarifying and bringing it to the forefront again. :clap:

 

[swedie]

I am thinking it is more than likely he thought that she would never rat on herself! As it turns out, TLM murdered TS with a hammer (I still shudder at that) - he may have thought that the chances of her confessing that she is a murderess were slim to none. As it turned out, he didn't smell a rat lol.

Nope MR never smelt the rat and she didn't recognize the Devil in disguise :dervish::devil:. JMHO

 

[swedie]

The mixture of MR's and TS's blood on the gym bag can be easily explained by the defence as well if they're going to maintain the theory that MR helped with the cleanup only.
While moving TS's body to the rockpile, her blood could have transferred to his hands, and while covering her up he could have cut his hand on a jagged rock.
If he touched his gym bag shortly after, that would explain how the mixture of his and TS's blood got there.
It doesn't prove he murdered her, only that he was present at some point after.

MOO

That just makes it much more simple, just more proof they (TLM and MR) acted together. HTH IMHO TLM GUILTY! MTR GUILTY! :moo:

 

[swedie]

Well I found this:

Sexual assault with a weapon, threats to a third party or causing bodily harm
272. (1) Every person commits an offence who, in committing a sexual assault,
(a) carries, uses or threatens to use a weapon or an imitation of a weapon;
(b) threatens to cause bodily harm to a person other than the complainant;
(c) causes bodily harm to the complainant; or
(d) is a party to the offence with any other person.
Marginal noteunishment
(2) Every person who commits an offence under subsection (1) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable
(a) if a restricted firearm or prohibited firearm is used in the commission of the offence or if any firearm is used in the commission of the offence and the offence is committed for the benefit of, at the direction of, or in association with, a criminal organization, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of
(i) in the case of a first offence, five years, and
(ii) in the case of a second or subsequent offence, seven years;
(a.1) in any other case where a firearm is used in the commission of the offence, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of four years; and
(b) in any other case, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years.


Here: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-130.html#docCont

It could mean any of the things I bolded. It may just mean that he was with TLM when she committed an offense. Hard to say.

Salem

IMHO TLM admitted to doing the worst to Tori by hitting her with the hammer. I would think if(and I don't think) she sexually assaulted Tori, she would have fessed up to that also. Why not she's got nothing to loss now right? Sexual assault was not one of her charges btw, so I am not buying it.

I will stand by my theory MR was the instigator/mastermind and wanted Tori for nefarious and sexual purposes just ask Det. Renton announced right after the arrests. MR seemed to have gone through many women and it sounds like he may not have really taken the time to get to know them before engaging in sexual activity with them. Wham bam thank you Ma'am and time to move onto the next woman. Seems he jump like a frog from lily pad to lily pad and sometimes covering more than one lily pad at a time. To me he sounds like a sexual deviant. The only reason Tori was abducted. The women just weren't putting out and providing enough excitement for him and his sick fantasies. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Yep we're all entitled to JMOHO. Let's move on Crown, give us what you got and lots of it. :waiting:

 

[swedie]

Excellent point Salem! :tyou: I've tried to get this point across before but I guess it fell on deaf ears. That or got lost in my long winded posts. Thank you for clarifying and bringing it to the forefront again. :clap:

Oh and to add to the "bodily harm" statement. Could it be because TLM said Tori was bleeding when she went to the washroom? Not to be disgusting here but, there is no mention of whether Tori had a bowel movement or urinated or both. And not to make light of the fact, we've had heard the expression "scared *****less" or "scared the carp out of someone", it does happen. Should there have been enough remains to work with, the autopsy could show damages to either one or both orifices of her body. HTH and MOO.

McClintic said she took Stafford to go pee outside after the first assaults, and held her hand so the girl wouldn't fall.
"There was blood on the snow. I told her I was sorry," McClintic said.
"Just don't let him do it again," Tori pleaded.

http://m.calgarysun.com/2012/03/13/terri-lynne-mcclintic-tells-her-story

 

[swedie]

(RSBM)

They did notice the similarity, but I don't think they got as good a look at it as they wanted:



http://www.canada.com/news/Blatchfo...imal+child+ominous+portent/6351561/story.html

JMO I think the officers did get a good look, just wanted pictures before the car went "poof". Magically disappeared kwim. MOO :moo:

 

[BorgQueen]

IMHO TLM admitted to doing the worst to Tori by hitting her with the hammer. I would think if(and I don't think) she sexually assaulted Tori, she would have fessed up to that also. Why not she's got nothing to loss now right? Sexual assault was not one of her charges btw, so I am not buying it.

I will stand by my theory MR was the instigator/mastermind and wanted Tori for nefarious and sexual purposes just ask Det. Renton announced right after the arrests. MR seemed to have gone through many women and it sounds like he may not have really taken the time to get to know them before engaging in sexual activity with them. Wham bam thank you Ma'am and time to move onto the next woman. Seems he jump like a frog from lily pad to lily pad and sometimes covering more than one lily pad at a time. To me he sounds like a sexual deviant. The only reason Tori was abducted. The women just weren't putting out and providing enough excitement for him and his sick fantasies. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Yep we're all entitled to JMOHO. Let's move on Crown, give us what you got and lots of it. :waiting:

Not necessarily. It is equally as possible that TLM was the 'mastermind'. It is also equally possible that they came up with this together.
We don't know the full story. TLM leaves a lot out. We probably never will hear the full story, but it is possible that TLM told MR her violent fantasies (and boy, does she ever have them, as we learned), MR then told her his, then they decided to go out and do it, choosing a child as the easiest target. We don't know how it happened. Not only has there not been enough evidence presented to really come to a definite conclusion, we also have one lying convict, and one lying accused. The question of who came up with the idea will likely never be known. JMO. I do believe this was somehow loosely planned, though. I don't believe the theory that TLM abducted Tori for {insert reasons here} and MR didn't know something was wrong for hours, and as soon as he figured it out he turned his back and she was dead... not buying that. In my opinion, it was planned. By whom? The truth will never be known.
:moo:

 

[Ardy]

Even if I already knew it, and if she swore on a stack of Bibles, I wouldn't believe TLM to tell me her name.

She has done far more than tell one story and recant parts of it.

At her sentencing, she stood sobbing and sniffling before the grieving parents, and told them how sorry she was, and then proceeded to deny them the truth of by whose hands their daughter died.........hers. She blamed MTR and allowed them to believe he committed the final act. Her statements that she just doesn't know why she didn't intervene, was a complete fabrication. We now know it was nothing but an act. She continued the charade for years, until this January.

The defense asserts that TLM told her godmother that she wasn't sorry for what she had done, except that it involved a little girl, and would probably do it again.

Her "recollections" consist of a clear memory of what MTR was doing but conveniently foggy memories of what she was doing, and continuing to present herself as the "caring" one of the two.

The public persona she exhibits is a sobbing, repentant, misguided young person damaged by a lifetime of abuse and drugs, until she walks out of earshot.........and then she morphs right back into her truly evil character.

Maybe MTR is the evil scum portrayed by the Crown............but I wouldn't want to accept a single word of TLM's statements or testimony as evidence of that fact.

I sincerely hope the Crown has undeniable evidence about what happened on that terrible day, so everyone can discount TLM's testimony altogether, and find the truth elsewhere.

JMO