What do JonBenet's clothes say?

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Nehemiah, Jun 8, 2005.

  1. Nehemiah

    Nehemiah Active Member

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    from the Patsy Ramsey interrogation (excerpts) interview June 1998, as transcribed by ACR:
    PR: (looking through photo album) "Looks like the little red turtleneck, little cotton red turtleneck that I wanted her to wear to the White's and she didn't want to wear."

    Det. Tom Haney: "How did it end up there?"

    PR: (looking through photo album): "Well," (Patsy then very quietly begins to cry)

    Det. Tom Haney: "It's about 10:25; you want to take a break?"

    PR: (Patsy crying..muffled) "Sorry." (Muffled)

    Interrogation tape appears to break here and a new conversation starts.

    We know that initially, Patsy told the officers that JB went to bed in the red turtleneck; she later changed that story to say that she was put to bed in the white star Gap shirt. We don't know what the pictures show from the White's Christmas party as they have never been publicly released. The red turtleneck was found balled up on the bathroom counter. Patsy says that she removed JB's black velvet jeans and put on the white longjohns that she herself got out of a drawer for her. All the while JB is said to be sleeping.

    I am fascinated with the red turtleneck. I don't think that Patsy got it wrong when she initially reported that JB went to bed wearing that. And here we have Patsy getting upset when she sees the red turtleneck....so upset that Det. Haney obviously feels empathy and takes a break. Why didn't he press her on this? I feel that an opportunity was missed.
     
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  3. tipper

    tipper Former Member

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    Wasn't thisthe first time she'd seen the photos? I'd think by itself that would have been very stressful.
     
  4. capps

    capps New Member

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    This is the turtle neck that Patsy and JonBenet argued over,and now it's rolled up in the bathroom,I'm sure from the disagreement they had earlier (and PR admits),and was probably thrown on the counter in frustratation by either PR or JB.

    A very painful reminder of the last day they spent together ... a spat over clothes.I would be crying hysterically.
     
  5. tipper

    tipper Former Member

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    Well at least Patsy let her wear the one she wanted to wear. Had she said no it would be an even worse memory. Kind of like John and the new bike.
     
  6. Lacy Wood

    Lacy Wood Former Member

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    Interesting point, but I think the most significant thing you bring out is the change of story. It seems almost certain the first reaction PR had to JB's attire being the same or different from that at bedtime would be right. Why change? (Someone else has noted a turtleneck might cover earlier neck marks while at the party if a prior event occurred.)
     
  7. tipper

    tipper Former Member

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    Patsy had planned for JonBenet to wear the red turtleneck. That's the memory that was already locked in her brain. Given the stress she was under she simply accessed the memory of what she was supposed to wear and not what she actually wore.


    It is generally accepted that she wore the white shirt to the Whites. Somewhere there is an ST chat discussing this.
     
  8. why_nutt

    why_nutt New Member

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    Patsy did not stress out or break down when looking at the (stained) pants on JonBenet's bedroom floor, or JonBenet's pajama shirt, or the sweater she wore to the White's party, or her fur-trimmed jacket on John Andrew's bed, or the Barbie nightgown, or any other item of clothing in the photographs, and as we know, there were many such clothes. So why would the turtleneck, which was an item JonBenet rejected, cause such an emotional reaction in Patsy? A reasonable person might speculate that it was because the turtleneck itself was involved in an extremely emotional moment between JonBenet and Patsy, which then brought emotional memories back to Patsy's life again.

    Fact: when cloth is wrapped around a fist and tightened around a person's neck, V-shaped and triangular bruises result. I have pictures from MEDICOLEGAL INVESTIGATION OF DEATH to prove it. Would you like to see them?
     
  9. tipper

    tipper Former Member

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    Yes, please.

    Emotional triggers do not have to be linked to an emotional momemt. It could have been cumulative or simply, yet again, realizing she's never going to be able to shop for clothes with JonBenet.
     
  10. Camper

    Camper New Member

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    Can we assume that the red shirt (both the NOT wanting to wear it AND the balling up of it) happened BEFORE they all left for the White's party?

    Could we assume that PR wanting JBR to wear the red shirt, words might have gone something like this - 'Mommy would like you to wear the red shirt so you will be all dressed up like a big girl, the same as mommy'? I can go further with a guessing game on the words that were spoken to JBR Christmas night, while dressing for the White's party, but I won't.:innocent:

    I am guessing that the discussion about what JBR was supposed to wear to the White's party was 'volatile' :furious:.

    Remember also the bathroom odor that was picked up by BPD's noses the morning of 12/26/96. I cannot remember the details on that, so jump in anyone that has a source for that. It was an odor that the BPD guys could not identify, nor find a source for.

    Was the red shirt balled up BEFORE they left for the party, OR after they all came home at some point in that bad night?



    .
     
  11. tipper

    tipper Former Member

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    How do you get "volatile" from "tiff?"
     
  12. Jayelles

    Jayelles New Member

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    What's wrong with volatile? If things were calm one minute and tiffy the next - I'd say that was a "volatile" situation (i.e. changing..). Volatile is a fairly flexible word.

    Last week I was writing a comment about a pupil in a tiny little box. I wanted to write "easily distracted" but there just wasn't enough room so I wrote "distractable". I figured his Tutor would know what I meant. However, his Tutor (a good friend of mine) took great pleasure in teasing me about it in the staffroom. I have just discovered it's a real word, so I'm going to get back at him tomorrow.

    Other excellent words - "jamp" (instead of jumped). It's got a lovely ring to it.

    One of my favourites expressions is "Nabbed out". A NAB is the name given to a school assessment here in Scotland. When teachers have been assessing lots of pupils or if pupils have done lots of assessments, we say they are "nabbed out". Perfect description!
     
  13. Nehemiah

    Nehemiah Active Member

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    I don't personally think that P or J killed JBR; however, I do think Patsy changing her story about what JB was wearing is telling. I think the red turtleneck is a clue of sorts. For Patsy to give erroneous info about the red turtleneck is suspicious, IMO. That and the "red heart" story she told during her '98 interviews are two things that I think are indicative that she saw JB's body prior to 1:00 p.m. on Dec. 27th. These instances, plus Jb's bedroom scene and the 3 blue hairties in her hair, are all speaking something. Exactly what, I'm not sure. As Patsy stated, "There are two people who know....the perp and someone he/she told." (My paraphrase) I agree.
     
  14. tipper

    tipper Former Member

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    While volatile can be used to mean changing (or evaporating) I think the most common use of it in this country (other than the stock market) is explosive, on the edge of violence. Tiff is a small or petty argument.
     
  15. Nehemiah

    Nehemiah Active Member

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    But who used the word "tiff"? Was it Patsy? If so, and the scene were truly volatile, I wouldn't expect her to say that. Guilty or not, I wouldn't put myself in that position when I was already under the umbrella.
     
  16. tipper

    tipper Former Member

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    If you were being honest about what happened and didn't have a guilty conscience you might.
     
  17. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    Well let's see...Patsy was disappointed when JonBenet rejected the My Twinn Doll earlier in the morning. Now JonBenet rejected "dressing like mommy".

    The red turtleneck that Patsy wanted JonBenet was found "balled up" on the counter in the bathroom. Hmmmm. Looks like someone got upset and balled it up.

    When a turtleneck is balled up it means that someone had it in their hands. Who? JonBenet or Patsy? Who balled it up in frustration? My guess would be Patsy. Children just toss a shirt...they do not ball it up.

    The photos of the Whites party showed that JonBenet did wear the white Gap shirt. Patsy does state in the interrogation that she "pulled off JonBenet's clothes"...but then catches herself and says she left her shirt on....

    PR: He carried her and put her in bed and I got her, you know, pulled off everything and put her, I left the shirt on and and put the pants on.
     
  18. Nehemiah

    Nehemiah Active Member

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    I agree. It could go either way.
     
  19. Cranberry

    Cranberry New Member

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    The sentence right before the break also mentioned a crown in the picture which also prompted the need for a break. Was the red turtleneck checked for pineapple? A stain or residue may help timewise to determine when it was balled up in the bathroom.
     
  20. Camper

    Camper New Member

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    Been gone this morning, just got home.

    6 year old children, or those below the age of reason, which is age 7, often display volatile reactions when 'things' they really really want are not going their way. I hang tough on the use of the word volatile. Particularly when one of the two participants of differing opinions, on what should be worn, ends up dead.

    IF IF you have a six year old, here is a home test, ask them to define for you the word 'tiff'.


    :truce:
     
  21. tipper

    tipper Former Member

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    But JonBenet did get her way. Did Patsy gnash her teeth and rant on through out the party that JonBenet was wearing the wrong shirt? Did JonBenet tell Daphne that Patsy was furious about the white shirt? Did Burke say his mother was explosively angry about what JonBenet had on? I think John missed the whole event which would suggest it wasn't a topic of conversation on the ride over.

    Did you go beserk and hold a grudge when you kids decided to wear something other than what you had had in mind.

    What does a six year old's definition of "tiff" have to do with the price of eggs in China, anyway? :)
     

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