What If 911 Wasn't Called?

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by azwriter, May 26, 2007.

  1. azwriter

    azwriter Sister Mary Wanna

    Messages:
    4,217
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Many of us RDIs believe JonBenet's parents reported her kidnapping to 911 because they ran out of time to dispose of her body somewhere outside their home.
    What if the Ramsey's decided not to notify officals with a 911 call that morning? Could they have pulled off getting rid of the body and therefore make a kidnapping and the ransom letter more believable?
    They could contact the rest of the family and the pilot to cancel the trip because Jon Benet was ill.
    Then there would be the problem of what to do with Burke. Could his parents have told him JonBenet was sick and the trip had been cancelled? Her bedroom door could have been closed with her tucked into bed.
    Then further on in the day, perhaps John would pretend he was taking a bundle of clothing or drapes or something bulky to the dry cleaners. (inside would be Jon Benet's body which he would place in a rural lonely area and actually take the items to the dry cleaners.)
    And then the next morning, Dec. 27, the 911 call would be placed and the entire charade would begin.
    Do you think the criminal masterminds, Patsy and John could have pulled this off? And wouldn't the ransom letter and a body not found in the house could have made this a more believable kidnapping? And the suspicion would not have been as stong that RDI.
    OK, whatever. It looks like the plan they did use worked. Neither was ever charged.
    Just wondered how the rest of you felt about the idea of John and Patsy carrying this even further.
    Care to comment?
     
  2. Loading...


  3. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

    Messages:
    8,022
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I suppose it COULD have been done any number of ways. But it would have taken more time to plan it out than they actually had. They were in a panic after all, because however way it really happened, and however they planned to get away with it, it was still horrifying to them. I think they just ran out of time and decided to go with hiding the body. They had an early fllght. I think cancelling the trip and using illness on the part of JBR would have been cumbersome, as they did have the Disney Cruise following as well. I think it was easier to hide the body, set it up as a kidnapping, and WANT the body to be found. (Because if it wasn't, then they'd HAVE to dispose of a by-then decomposing child and it wouldn't be nearly as easy).
     
  4. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

    Messages:
    5,554
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I've thought about that,but I think they were in panic mode with a dead body in the house..it couldn't have been easy.No time to get her out of the house(b/f daylight comes)? OK,then *we'll leave ...and JR knew that plane would be ready to go...I think that's why the 911 call came in so late,or rather,more closely to the time the plane would have been ready for take off.
    If they'd been thinking clearly then that ridiculous rambling ransom note wouldn't have been written in the first place.
    edited,I didn't read that well..I see what you're saying...I think they did have,according to the RN,a previous plan to buy them more time..such as with the lines..'we will call you tomorrow'..the note was 'found' the morning of the 26th...that means it refers to the 27th...(as JR himself even mentioned in DOI)...anyway,that gives them all day to come up with a plan on how to get her out of the house...then the line...'you will need to be rested'...means they need to stay at home..in case anyone notices that they didn't leave the house that day.Then the line..'if we monitor you getting the money early'...ok...that gives them an excuse to leave the house early (with her body,as the note said 'you will also be denied her remains for proper buriel'.that says it all to me...).
    Of course no one knows why they changed their minds,I think in the end it was decided to be too risky..tire tracks,shoe prints,plus where would they put her anyway?What if JR got into a car accident on the way and her body was discovered in the car? I think once daylight came ,JR felt the time for that was come and gone,so they panicked and wanted to leave the state.
    Plus Patsy,once calmed down a bit,probably came to mind of a grand funeral for her in her pageant gown and crown,which is just what she wore.And Patsy herself a lot of attention from it all.
     
  5. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,187
    Likes Received:
    142
    Trophy Points:
    63
    azwriter,

    Burke is aware of what happened prior to JonBenet's death, and most likely aware of some of the events that followed, even if he does not know the full details.

    He can tell us if he sipped tea while JonBenet snacked pineapple, he can tell us who served JonBenet the pineapple, he can tell us where JonBenet went after snacking pineaple, e.g. did she go to bed, did she stay with Patsy, did she stay with John?

    They could have avoided the 911 call by dumping JonBenet's body outdoors somewhere locally, making sure her body was well hidden.

    John could have used his car to effect this, saying he went looking for JonBenet but could not find her, personally this is just as suspicious as discovering her body in the basement, but less incriminating. It would make the intruder abduction scenario much more plausible.


    .
     
  6. Albert18

    Albert18 New Member

    Messages:
    538
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I don't think there was ever a plan to remove JonBenet's body from the house. Dumping JonBenet out in the woods where she could have been torn apart by animals and her body frozen? I don't see that.

    I don't think you can use the ransom note to decipher their plans because the ransom note is a work of fiction.

    I think one of the biggest obstacles to understanding this case is the staging, as was intended. A lot of staging is involved and staging isn't real. Yet people use bits and pieces of the staging to intrepret the crime.
     
  7. azwriter

    azwriter Sister Mary Wanna

    Messages:
    4,217
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    ALBERT18, good point about the staging and the fake ransom letter (I prefer to call it a Letter). I am sure law enforcement recognized all the fakery and the staging, but yet the real mystery is why neither or both the parents were ever charged. Unless that third person in the household, who shall remain unnamed, was the real killer and could not be charged because of the state's laws. But then why would LE continue to investigate this crime which takes time and money?
    jmo
     
  8. Albert18

    Albert18 New Member

    Messages:
    538
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I no longer think incompetence.

    It must involve a twisted set of values and a form of corruption that doesn't involve money. Because of their status the Ramsey's were owed this favor. What was done by the authorities in this case wasn't viewed as being wrong because they were just doing the Ramsey's a favor and it is their right to grant these kind of favors.

    I think this kind of crap has been going on forever but the internet and non-network television makes it more difficult for it to be kept quiet. I think the Natalie Holloway case is basically the same.
     
  9. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

    Messages:
    5,554
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    JB body wasn't just staged,it was staged and then *restaged,for a reason..plans changed.A fake sexual assault was implemented,that was abandoned and she was wiped down,redressed and covered.Why else would that be? Why the change,if there was no change in plans and an original plan was already in place and adhered to?
     
  10. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

    Messages:
    8,022
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This would have to imply that JR knew his daughter was dead while it was still dark enough to drive away unnoticed. (which of course, is true anyway). They CLAIM that PR found the note around 5:30 am. Unless you had an idea who had your child (where they lived, what kind of car they had, etc.) you wouldn't go driving around to find her, like you would a lost dog. It's not like she just wandered off. It would raise too many questions, least of all why you'd leave the house if you were "expecting kidpappers to call". The only way that would have made sense is if they claimed to have discovered her missing from the house and THEN found the note that said she'd been kidnapped.
     
  11. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,187
    Likes Received:
    142
    Trophy Points:
    63
    DeeDee249,

    The 911 did not need to made when it was, and
    Whichever method works, but who would not believe Patsy rising , showering, makeup, dressing etc, looking in on JonBenet to discover her missing, alerts John, who dresses fast, they discover the note, and John decides to go looking for JonBenet, but returns 5 minutes later with no JonBenet, at some point they decide to dial 911. I think it is a much better plan that leaving JonBenet in the basement, both scenarios point the finger at the parents, but the outdoor version, less so, since the domestic link is far more difficult to demonstrate?

    .
     
  12. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

    Messages:
    5,554
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    it is,but for whatever reason,they didn't go through with it.they weren't thinking logically anyway,had they been then that ridiculous RN wouldn't have been written.remember that,not having lived in Boulder previously,they may not have known any place where she could be left inconspicously,without having to worry about tire tracks and foot prints being left.Plus,what if he'd been in an accident w her body in the car?I think they staged/(restaged) it as best they thought they could(cleaning up the prior staged sexual assault),pointed the finger at JM in the note,and called 911 in an attempt to hopefully still be able to get on the plane that was set to go to MI after the body was found.
     
  13. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

    Messages:
    8,022
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    0
    If PR discovered her daughter missing from her room/bed, wouldn't you do a thorough search of the HOUSE first before getting in your car to search a darkened neighborhood? Or you'd call her friends to see if she had somehow wandered over there. That wood latch on the wineceller door is like a red flag to me, because it is so obvious that a latch like that can't be locked by mistake or from the inside. Any person, dead or alive, in that room was left there by someone else. Only someone OUTSIDE that room could lock that latch, just like the chair placed against the train room door. No one could pull a chair close to a door that opened OUT after they were already in the room, no matter how "clever" JR said the "kidnappers" were.
    The 911 call had to be made as early, because of the early scheduled flight.
    But TOO early (as in the middle of the night), and it would have been too close to the time they were KNOWN to have left the White's, and also making several more stops. It would make it too hard to belive they were sound asleep long enough not to have heard that scream.
    When you put it all together- there just wasn't enough hours to arrive home, put the kids to bed, stay up getting ready for the trip (which PR says she did do), feed her pineapple (or have her sneak downstairs after her parents were asleep to eat it), sexually abuse her, make and apply the garrotte, bash her head, clean up any blood (I am sure there was SOME) think of what to do next, write the note, get the blanket, etc. It's all too much in too short a time. And poice arrive quickly after a 911 call. It all had to be done before they arrived.
    Remember that BR (much later) admitted to being awake and hearing voices and scurrying about (NOT screaming, as would be the case if their parents had found their child's body). And NO parent of a truly missing child would let their other kids sleep - you'd want to ask if they heard/saw anything.
    That 9:30- 10pm time frame for the Rs arriving home that night- That's just their say-so, right? I don't recall ever seeing where the friends they visited after leaving the White's were asked if they could give a time that they remembered the R's dropping off their gifts.
    I just don't see another time when that call could have been made.
     
  14. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,187
    Likes Received:
    142
    Trophy Points:
    63
    DeeDee249,
    Lets say anytime after 5.00am, but once JonBenet is discovered missing, according to the Ramsey version, they can phone anytime they like after say 5:30am, because they are no longer flying that schedule is out the window, so if they phoned at 6:15am thats not critical, since John can say I was out looking for JonBenet in my car?

    The pineapple residue in JonBenet's stomach estimates her time of death somewhere between 11pm and 2am, that leaves approx 4 hours to work out a plan and setup the staging.

    .
     
  15. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

    Messages:
    5,554
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think FW said they left about 8:30,while the R's said it was an hour later than that.
     
  16. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

    Messages:
    5,554
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think they set the RN up to buy them some time,if they decided to do so.The 'we will call you tomorrow',and they find it the morning of the 26th..gives them a full day,had they decided to do it that way.
     
  17. tezi

    tezi Member of Websleuths since 2000.

    Messages:
    5,363
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    48

    Well, that plan worked for seven hours. The ransom "novel" was a dead giveaway that the parents were involved in the death of their daughter. My personal theory is that they ran out of time before they could really decide what to do.

    Actually, their plan worked for over ten years. And they weren't sophisticated criminals. Just dumb criminals who had the luck of living in Boulder.
     
  18. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

    Messages:
    8,022
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    0

    Absolutely correct! And it is STILL working.
     
  19. Dru

    Dru New Member

    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I believe the R's absolutely did intend, at first, to dump JBR's body and go to the police with the 'kidnapping' note. In fact, the RN's vagueness about time meant that they could have plausibly waited all day on the 26th, and then called LE on the 27th.

    In fact, I think that was the intention: to dump JBR's body when JR was out following the kidnappers' 'exhausting' delivery schedule. Any strange behavior on the R's part could have been explained by the original RN: we thought if we called in the police she'd be killed, we went to the bank, got the money, drove to the secluded spot the kidnappers told us to go to, left the money, went home, waited, and so on. Then they could call police on the morning of the 27th, hysterical because they hadn't heard from the kidnappers once the money had been left. (And if JBR's body is found near the money drop-off point, so much the better, right?)

    I do think this was the plan, at least for a little while, long enough for the RN to be written. But while somebody was writing the RN, somebody else was having second thoughts.

    First, the flight would have to be canceled. If it was just a matter of talking to the pilot, that would be one thing; "Something has come up--we'll call you later," will work perfectly well as an excuse. But there are others gathering in Charlevoix who will be seriously alarmed if the R's don't arrive. They might even call the police prematurely if they don't hear from the R's. But what excuse can JR and PR make that will be convincing enough for JR's children, who know them both fairly well? Any talk of JBR being sick won't fly, and will raise more questions than it answers.

    Next, there's the BR problem. He's not an infant; he's old enough to figure out that something is very, very wrong. The R's can't send him over to someone else's house, and they can't just keep him there while JR goes off with JBR's body--it's too risky; who knows how much he'll figure out on his own?

    Then there are the neighbors. How many people will notice what the R's are doing? How many may note jarring little inconsistencies that will lead the police to the truth?

    Then there's forensic evidence. JBR was killed in her home, we know. Would the police have been able to tell that? Wouldn't that also have led them to the R's?

    And then there's the 'kidnappers.' The ones who didn't call, as could be proved. So where did JR get those detailed instructions about the drop-off point, anyway? And what kind of kidnappers fail to pick up the money, or even to attempt it?

    I think that while the RN was being written somebody was figuring all of that out. In the end, the kidnapping scenario was discarded as being far too risky--but the note was kept, because they needed a reason to call 911 and to cancel their seven a.m. flight from Boulder to Charlevoix (or their "SBTC," as I like to call it.) :D
     
  20. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

    Messages:
    5,554
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    THAT WAS AWESOME !! THANK YOU !! I've been sitting here banging my head trying to get that point across...but you did a better job !!! YES....exactly....that note explains it all...their previous intentions...excuses for being seen out,esp. if it was early('if we monitor you getting the money early')...excuse for not being seen outside the house(other than for the drop -off of the money,which was really her body,'you will need to be rested')the 'we will call you tomorrow' gives them a whole day to carry this out..(Dru,you should be working for the FBI...really !)
    I was wondering if you think the body was staged and restaged,in regards to the sexual assault.UK kept asking the question why the assault was done,but then hidden(ie wiped,redressed and hidden w the blanket)..why would JR try to distance himself from it if it was staged to be noticed? ..then it hit me...my husb. always would go sit out by the pool(I posted this bf ) whenever other kids came to our room to see our kids on vacation.He said he didn't ever want to put himself in a position of being blamed for anything,since we didn't know the families very well.(he wouldn't have done anything like that anyway,but better to be safe than sorry).
    I think JR did the same,in a different way,but he attempted to put some distance bet. him and the staged assault (that was going to be used when they planned to put her outside,as if a pedo did it) by trying to hide it and then getting out of town,just as he attempted to do at 1pm after she was 'found'.He knew being a man,now that she as to be found in the house..he'd get the blame for it.
    I think it was a staged assault b/c of the foreign material found in her.I think it's possible she was assaulted non-violently bf that,but the staged one was to insure it looked like she'd been attacked by a pedo.
     
  21. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

    Messages:
    5,554
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    also,the 'we will call you bet. 8 and 10 am,gives them a couple more hours the next morning bf calling LE.
    I also wonder about JR's $118,000 bonus..was there a check in the house he could have cashed in for that amt?could that amt still be used as petty cash on a moment's notice,bc it wasn't yet tied up in investments?JAT,I wonder if that's evidence being held back.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice