What Is Your Theory?

[Auburn]

Patrick McNeill Jr,missing 2/17/97- located 4/7/97, is thought to be the first victim and his is the case that caught the attn of former Det. Gannon.

Here is his case analysis,made public with his parents permission. The case analysis is quite detailed,and obvious from witnesses that he was followed. This young man was tortured...ligature marks found,burn marks,fly larvae found in groin region which suggests he was held for a long period of time.

Cut & pasted:

r Gannon had a partial plate. The Missing Persons supervisor would not pay for a "lawman search" (i.e., a search of all number-letter combinations) in order to identify a plate number for the vehicle hat was following Patrick and described by witnesses at the scene. Authorities said it was too expensive ($1,200 at that time). This information was critical and would have led to the identity of hose in question who were in that vehicle that evening and were certainly "Persons of Interest" regarding Patrick's disappearance.

http://www.nationwideinvestigations.us/case1.html

There is much to read there about this highly disturbing case.

 

[SyraKelly]

Thanks for posting this. Did he rip off his shirt? And then go running off? He definitely looks drugged to me.

Some people where speculating that the 2 girls who walked in front of him * jabbed him with something.He seems to be OK when he first walked out,but then started to act strange after the girls.He looks like he looking for something,then takes his coat of to maybe getting warm.But also watch the 2 guys coming from the right.They look and almost approached him,but then turn away when Josh heads their way,then you see the 2 girls enter from the right from the same direction that Josh went & the 2 guys go..Those 2 girls & 2 guys are just not right IMO-I don't think Josh ran,but stumbled away!
You have to see the video of the kid who I mentioned above,kicking the window..that is something to see,very scary to watch..I still can't find it,but still looking!!

 

[Auburn]

Some people where speculating that the 2 girls who walked in front of him * jabbed him with something.He seems to be OK when he first walked out,but then started to act strange after the girls.He looks like he looking for something,then takes his coat of to maybe getting warm.But also watch the 2 guys coming from the right.They look and almost approached him,but then turn away when Josh heads their way,then you see the 2 girls enter from the right from the same direction that Josh went & the 2 guys go..Those 2 girls & 2 guys are just not right IMO-I don't think Josh ran,but stumbled away!
You have to see the video of the kid who I mentioned above,kicking the window..that is something to see,very scary to watch..I still can't find it,but still looking!!

Yes,the Szostak(sp?) video is disturbing.

 

[SyraKelly]

I found the boy's name of the video I am looking for-Alexander Grant! If anyone knows where this video is,could please post it.TIA


Auburn-besides disturbing,what else do you see in the video? I always like see hear what other people think!

 

[SyraKelly]

Has anyone ever heard anything about candles being light under a bridge or anything? Kind an off topic question but was just wondering because in Eau Claire at the time right before these young men went missing my friend and I were walking along and seen a bunch of candles under the bridge light. We were going to go down and see what it was but half way down we got the chills and turned back.
I have just always wondered about this because it was very odd to see this. And the months following the men in Eau Claire started to go missing. I've always wondered if that could possible be a way to lure men down by the river.
I'm sure it's nothing but just wondering if there has ever been any other reportings about this.

I have never heard of the candles.Just st some crime scenes there were pics of smiley faces.I don't really know what to think about them!

 

[Vivalor]

I have never heard of the candles.Just st some crime scenes there were pics of smiley faces.I don't really know what to think about them!

Right. I figured it was a long shot and prob nothing to do with anything. All I know is that I was born and raised in a town that some of these boys went missing from and have seen some very odd things that had happen. Some of them to this day still bother me deeply. One being from when I was a bartender and watched a guy follow another guy who he did not know out of the bar. This was after this guy did nothing but talk about how easy it could be to kill someone the whole night. This guy was on a crouch rocket and said he was from st paul. I was so sketched out about this that I went and called the other guy back into the bar. He fit the description of the guys that were targeted. I new him and he lived a few blocks away...I ended up giving him a ride home that night. He was very drunk and out of it. And you know it could of just been me over thinking things and being a little to informed about these murders.
Also being followed by a group along the river one night by a group that didn't know I was with and thought they were just following my boyfriend at the time. This one made me really think because of the way they hid behind some cars well a woman on was singing to lure him into a parking ramp (same parking ramp one of the dogs lost sent of one missing man at) then continued to follow us down the trail that is next to the river.
The thing is that I am from and born and raised in this town. When I was younger and these things were going on I lived on the river. I loved walking the trails. I know things that are not normal and what is normal to find.
I also know that one man that went missing was also from here and when he came up missing and found in half moon....that was when I knew these had to be murders. There is no way he would of went down there. There is no way he was lost. My ex actually new him and it just wasn't right....something isn't right.
I can say in my whole life about every 10 years here a college man is found drunk who fell asleep and died in the cold of winter. But never just end up going in the river and drowning. This only happened in this short time frame and hasn't happened sense.
Sorry for rambling on. And being a little off topic. I am going to go back and read some more and see if maybe as a loco there is more things I can maybe see that don't make sense. But haven't seem to many people talk about these guys in this town to much.

 

[SyraKelly]

I am glad your instincts told you something wasn't right with the guy you gave a ride home.You may very well have saved his life!
I have always believed these to be murders,there are just way to many ending up in the river.I can see 1 or 2 maybe 3,but over 100..not a chance these are accidental!I do believe its women luring this guys and its the guys who are murdering them.
I also believe they are being kept somewhere for a reason,some of the young men have been found in places that have been well searched before they are found.
I don't know how many more have to die before something is really done,hopeful the Feds that got involved will find something,but I am not holding my breath.

 

[Vivalor]

Well the thing about it is...Is I can honestly say that if this had not happened in my home town I would of been like many others and quick to dismiss these as accidents. I hate to say that. But, I can see how some may over look a lot of this.
It was not until three young men went missing here in my home town and then were all found in a body of water. Two I believe were in a lake and the other in the river. This triggered me because maybe once or twice in my life here has anyone gotten drunk and drown and even then those were in the summer and were young men with their friends who tried to swim across. Or another was actually a suicide where a woman had jumped of a bridge.
Then what has really gotten me was the fact that it has not happened sense these three men went missing then ended up in water and drown. Not once has it happened again here. And two of the men went missing in 02 and the other in 05.
The other thing that proves it to me is that as a loco and with one of these men being a loco it's so unlikely that he would of ended up where he had. Anyone in this area knows you can't just walk across this lake it has a big hole in it every year. No one goes out there. No one even goes swimming out there in the summer it's like a cesspool. Not only that but from where he was last seen and where he was found does not make any sense at all. You either would have to walk a long ways threw a dark park and then jump from a cliff to end up there. Or walk all the way around and go in at the beach. Unless if he went in by a pound area and the current carried him over there and once again to get to this pond from where he was last seen would be way out of the way and I'm not sure if he would even make it before hypothermia setting in. This of course is all my opinions no facts. But just seems a little to odd for me to just over look.
Makes me wonder about this band that is known for following young men down the river path. Most just laugh about it and dismiss them as crack heads. I think I am going to go off and find out what band that is.

 

[brushfire]

check out justice4eric.com...This has been happening in portland,oregon also. And yes,it is a group of people,in each city,I believe it's a game... sick game...the cases in oregon,specifically eric bowman's,and the other's on the stats list that are on justice4eric.com are all the same stories...family didnt get to view the body,only through tattoos which were in pristine shape,yet he was missing for 2 weeks,L.E. treated the family less than human. I've had a family member murdered,and never did we NOT get to view the body. Why aren't these cases showing up on an episode of dateline or 48 hours or missing?

 

[Vivalor]

Well, it looks like we all agree on one thing and that these are murders. I also believe it is a group. And I think that maybe they work together sometimes or alone....but somehow stay connected. We can all go threw the evidence, videos, and oddness of each case a million times I truly think that is going to get no one anywhere.
I think it is clear that LE is not doing much. Or els the FBI is trying hard to figure it out. Being that these would have all taken place in different states and cities I am think it would be the FBI. Either way nothing is being done for some reason. So my question is what can we do then to help catch these people? Where do we start? What can I do from two cities I can go to? How can one of us get in with this group. Where would you even go to find this group? Do we send out fake drunk men along the river to see if anyone will try something? I want to do something other then just talk about this. I have been talking about these murders for about 15 years now. I want to do something that will help make it so that LE will want to catch someone.

 

[SyraKelly]

check out justice4eric.com...This has been happening in portland,oregon also. And yes,it is a group of people,in each city,I believe it's a game... sick game...the cases in oregon,specifically eric bowman's,and the other's on the stats list that are on justice4eric.com are all the same stories...family didnt get to view the body,only through tattoos which were in pristine shape,yet he was missing for 2 weeks,L.E. treated the family less than human. I've had a family member murdered,and never did we NOT get to view the body. Why aren't these cases showing up on an episode of dateline or 48 hours or missing?

Hi Brushfire & welcome to WS,
This story has been on all those shows,but its been so long ago I think everyone has forgotton about these poor young men and also alot of people esp LE Think these are all accidental drownings,so if they think that..no one is going to do a story about.but the FBI did get involved last month so hopefully it will be better look into..

 

[SyraKelly]

Well, it looks like we all agree on one thing and that these are murders. I also believe it is a group. And I think that maybe they work together sometimes or alone....but somehow stay connected. We can all go threw the evidence, videos, and oddness of each case a million times I truly think that is going to get no one anywhere.
I think it is clear that LE is not doing much. Or els the FBI is trying hard to figure it out. Being that these would have all taken place in different states and cities I am think it would be the FBI. Either way nothing is being done for some reason. So my question is what can we do then to help catch these people? Where do we start? What can I do from two cities I can go to? How can one of us get in with this group. Where would you even go to find this group? Do we send out fake drunk men along the river to see if anyone will try something? I want to do something other then just talk about this. I have been talking about these murders for about 15 years now. I want to do something that will help make it so that LE will want to catch someone.

I know what you mean Vivalor,its hard to sit and watch young people being murdered,but this group who is doing this is HUGE & DANGEROUS IMO.They are very very good at what they do,thats why sooo many men have died.
This is a job for the FBI.You did do something,you thought something was wrong and turned into something postive by giving that young man a ride,its things like that,that you need to keep an eye on.You are a bartender,keeping eyes on people's drinks as I am sure you do already, is other thing,calling cabs for drunk people is other thing I think you do,so you are helping!!I think these young men are being drugged,then when they feel warm,they go outside to cool down,then they end up walking alone so the killers follows them and gets them.You need to be very careful when it comes to this group.

 

[TheyDontSee]

It's not one person but a group of people (men and women)
government officials are also involved
it's well coordinated and planned out
Victims are not "snatched up" but often tricked into going with the person or people, when at this point they are forcibly pulled into the waiting van and subdued.
it's a game and yet serious (spiritual/occultic)
The group is like a cult
These are sacrifices.
Various vans are used in the transporting.
Victims are not immediately killed and dumped in the river. They are kept alive for X amount of time where certain grooming takes place (feeding, brainwashing, mental torture).
Victims are not physically tortured.
This group has existed for DECADES. Their crimes also range. There was a group on the east coast who use to kill by gun. Due to technology they decided it's "safer" to do it this way... and they were right. We're still looking for them.
The group uses the internet to communicate, but not publicly. (private password protected forum, private groups, etc.)

 

[jeffries]

Very intriguing thoughts. Would you mind going a bit more in depth, explaining how you came to these conclusions?

 

[chris24]

I went to college in a town on a lake/river. The bars in town were a block from the river. Not once do I ever recall any of my friends (male or female), after a night at the bar, wanting (or suggesting) to go down to the river or lake and hang out, or even us choosing to walk home by the river...

So I don't believe this wonky excuse that these vast amounts of men, separated from their friends, are attracted to water after a night of drinking and somehow end up drowned in a river.

Now sometimes we would get separated. Sometimes when people are drunk they like to run off, or leave without telling anyone. But not once did anyone run off to the river banks or the beach. If anything, we chose to walk in the city streets and alleys. Not that my experience is everyone's but reading these stories again and again is quite curious.

How many of these men are really getting separated from their friends, end up by a body of water on their way home, losing their footing, falling in and not being able to get themselves out? Water is cold. Your natural instinct is to fight it. Are these men really sooooo drunk that they just give up immediately without fighting?

If I have to pick a theory, it would be that either these are attempted muggings that turn deadly, or there is some kind of organization that as an initiation ritual (and I feel like I sound crazy writing this) has something like you have to kill someone to get in. I think these men get "mugged" and drugged/sedated somehow and tossed in the river.

Why college aged men? A few reasons.
1) Missing white woman syndrome. Missing women (for whatever reason) garner much more attention when missing then men do. Men do not usually get that much attention unless they disappear under extremely odd circumstances (Steven Koecher walking off a a camera never to be seen again) or have some level of celebrity whether national or local (Jimmy Hoffa, Gavin Smith, for example.)

2) Going missing after a night out at a bar...most people will assume the person was drinking. There is some kind of "blame the victim" mentality, like "if he wasn't drinking he wouldn't have fallen into the river."

3) College age...again many people will assume that the men are big binge drinkers, possibly enough to black out and become disoriented. Young enough to make foolish decisions but not so young that they'd be under 18 and cause even more panic. College aged people are seen as growing into their own and having fun, being irresponsible.

4) Men may be less fearful of walking around late at night alone. People may not think much of a man leaving a bar alone.

 

[Justice101]

the originial poster with the theory might be really offbase!

 

[Pensfan]

Reread the blood alcohol level for many of these males. Many of their BACs were extremely elevated to the point that they were beyond stumbling drunk and wouldn't have been able to make it out of any type of stream or shallow water. Unintentional injuries are a leading cause of death in this age group and race.
http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/2009/LCOD_whitemen2009.pdf

 

[jeffries]

Isn't it possible, especially after these "smiley face murders" were all over the news in 2008, that some of these cases may be murders committed by "copycats"? You could imagine some guy hearing about how nobody thought these river deaths were murders and then using the same M.O. to try and get away with his own crimes.

I think that, at the very least, not all of these cases that were murders were done by the same person or group. A few may even have been the result of a petty argument, with the unlucky party being pushed or forced into the river.

 

[reb]

I'm with the camp who believes this is just nothing more than drownings caused by intoxication. Alcohol poisons the brain and makes you do stupid things. It also makes you basically suicidal (i.e., do things that you know in your right mind could kill you or cause you harm).. and have poor judgement. I do believe that being in that state of mind might draw some people towards the water. Not sure why.
Why does it happen to so many college age white males..? Simple.. because there is an disproportionate amount of white college age males out in bars, getting wasted out of their minds every weekend (sadly). And, many towns happen to be near the water... and especially areas that are touristy, with lots of bars and shops and so on. I bet if you look at old news, you'd see lots of cases of guys (women too) getting drunk and falling into water.. it's probably just making the news more (plus, there are more people). I see no evidence that it's some kind of targeted conspiracy.

 

[TroyinTX]

Just seem too many of them occurring around the same geographical locations with the same circumstances simply to be just drownings by intoxication.

My opinion, of course.