What Narrative Did The Ramseys Have In Mind Initially?

[madeleine]

As it was, it took 7 hours for the body to be "found" but even so, it was inevitable that it would be found. If the officers on scene shortly before 6 am had opened that door..... If FW had a flashlight......

I know that FW went down to the basement minutes after he arrived,I always found it strange...and I can't find a lot of info re this....did anyone say anything to him?was he manipulated without even realizing it?I would really like to know what JR told him after he arrived and before he went to the basement.maybe this is what he hoped,that someone else finds her.I always thought that they used the friends as a tampon between them and police (and it worked!)...but I wonder,why did FW go straight to the basement after his arrival,was it just a feeling or was he (indirectly) directed by somebody

 

[Nom de plume]

I know that FW went down to the basement minutes after he arrived,I always found it strange...and I can't find a lot of info re this....did anyone say anything to him?was he manipulated without even realizing it?I would really like to know what JR told him after he arrived and before he went to the basement.maybe this is what he hoped,that someone else finds her.I always thought that they used the friends as a tampon between them and police (and it worked!)...but I wonder,why did FW go straight to the basement after his arrival,was it just a feeling or was he (indirectly) directed by somebody

Good point. I was wondering the same thing. It's almost unbelievable that no one else found her! Two people searched that basement and missed her. Three if you want to include JR's first trip down there....LOL

ITA that once LE was called there would not be a way to get her out of the house. No way was LE going to just leave them all alone after 10am on the 26th and not show back up until the morning of the 27th. I also feel sure that the original plan was to dump her elsewhere, hence the RN. That leaves the big question of "what happened"? Did BR go snooping in the WC to see what he was getting for his birthday (open packages) and find her? Was that why he was whisked out of the house so fast that morning?

If JDI, the RN was intended to scare PR into not calling LE. JR would have taken her somewhere else to dump her, and IMO made off with the $$ never to be seen again, i.e. plane crash.

If PDI, I think she was just nuts and it was some twisted "religious"/sacrifice thing. The rambling RN does sound like something she would write. I wouldn't have the foggiest idea what her plan would have been knowing JB was in the WC, and then calling 911 anyway.

I'm doubting it was a JR/PR duet UNLESS PR caught JR molesting JB and whacked JB intentionally. (IMO she was the kind of "mother" that blames the daughter for seducing her father instead of placing the blame where it belongs.) In that case they both have something to hide, and every reason to work together. I can't see any other scenario that would make one cover for the other.

As for BDI, IMO he would have had to do it all and I'll never buy that. No way did he write the RN or make the garotte. I just don't believe JR & PR would have done the RN, garotte, staging, etc. to cover for a blow to the head. It could have easily been explained away as an accident.

:moo:

 

[madeleine]

"Help me Jesus, help me Jesus."

"Please, what do I do?"

"We’re not speaking to you,"

"Help me Jesus, help me Jesus."

"What did you find?"

-------------

still trying to make sense of this conversation or wth was going on there even if I listened to that enhanced part and never heard anything

PLEASE,what do I do?
is this something he asks because he did something and is afraid of the consequences?


what did you find?
is it about the RN or the body?

and why would JR bark at him they aren't talking to him?

still a mystery to me

 

[midwest mama]

"Help me Jesus, help me Jesus."

"Please, what do I do?"

"We’re not speaking to you,"

"Help me Jesus, help me Jesus."

"What did you find?"

-------------

still trying to make sense of this conversation or wth was going on there even if I listened to that enhanced part and never heard anything

PLEASE,what do I do?
is this something he asks because he did something and is afraid of the consequences?

IMO, he is responding to discord between JR and Patsy - Patsy wanting him to stay close by while she made the call - remember the "hon, because..... we need them" (him having come in response to all the hubbub and Patsy now wanting to try to calm him and herself as well) and JR telling him to get back upstairs to his room, because he was flustered that Patsy called 911 before he could get her stopped - get Burke out of the picture to keep him from knowing any more than necessary or realizing his father was enraged.

what did you find?
is it about the RN or the body?

IMO, it's about the RN - he has heard Patsy giving her account to 911, and should have seen both his parents dealing with the RN throughout the call.

and why would JR bark at him they aren't talking to him?

To shut him up. Classic response from a dominant parent whose child is interrupting an adult situation/conversation. JR's "bark" demonstrates clearly that he is annoyed with the situation and has no desire to deal compassionately with his son at that time - which you might expect if everyone was in a panic. Consider this, written from JR himself in TOSOS, pg 25: "I had never, ever, even spanked her. (JB). I never spanked or physically disciplined any of my children. I didn't need to. A stern word from me, a serious look, and that's all it took." *(see below)

still a mystery to me

Because I suspect JR had so much to do with JB's death, I see the whole scene simply as more abuse, (*)emotional and verbal type, against Burke.

 

[UKGuy]

"Help me Jesus, help me Jesus."

"Please, what do I do?"

"We’re not speaking to you,"

"Help me Jesus, help me Jesus."

"What did you find?"

-------------

still trying to make sense of this conversation or wth was going on there even if I listened to that enhanced part and never heard anything

PLEASE,what do I do?
is this something he asks because he did something and is afraid of the consequences?


what did you find?
is it about the RN or the body?

and why would JR bark at him they aren't talking to him?

still a mystery to me

madeleine,
Well a minimal explanation is that its that its BDI, and JR was the last person to find this out.

i.e. Patsy discovers Burke and JonBenet together or Burke tells Patsy JonBenet fell down the stairs can she help?

So Patsy sets about with her staging effort, later when JR rises he finds the RN and Patsy acting weird, so JR searches the basement and finds JonBenet, letting out a scream as does so.

So on returning upstairs Burke asks what did you find. Common sense suggests the question is in response to JR looking for something?

Jesus, well the R's always invoked religion to talk around a subject.

PLEASE,what do I do?
is this something he asks because he did something and is afraid of the consequences?

No and no. Its all about his role, BR knows the RN and 911 call mean serious business so he wants to know what part must he play?

All three R's were complicit in the staging of JonBenet's homicide.


.

 

[otg]

"Help me Jesus, help me Jesus."

"Please, what do I do?"

"We’re not speaking to you,"

"Help me Jesus, help me Jesus."

"What did you find?"

-------------

There are (TMK) four different recordings of the 911 call:

1. The original tape that was recorded by the 911 call center.
2. A cassette copy of the original version that was given by BPD to several different audio labs for analysis. It was this version that was enhanced by Aerospace Corporation in California, but has never been released to the public.
3. The cassette tape version (made from a cassette copy of the original, making it 3rd generation) that was released to the public.
4. The CD version (made from a cassette copy of the original, making it 3rd generation) that was released to the public.

Both the cassette and the CD versions that were released publicly (#3, and #4) have part of the end destroyed. This is obvious because they are different from one another at the end (as well as the beginning). It is these two versions that have been converted to digital and are available online. One of the two (I think it’s the CD version) has a repetitive mechanical sound overlaid on the missing section at the end and has all of the extraneous background conversation removed. The other (I think the cassette version) is cut off just after the part of the background conversation where you can hear the “third voice” say, “What did you...”

Keep in mind, the only ones we have available are 3rd generation (4th generation if we consider the conversion to digital). Just like a copy of a copy of a copy of a printed page loses definition, so does an audio recording. So it’s impossible to get a clean enhancement of what is available to us.

I can hear PR repeating the “Help me, Jesus” over and over, and I can hear the last words that say, “What did you...” But I haven’t been able to hear the other parts. Others say they can, but maybe their hearing is better than mine. I know that at first it’s hard to discern, but once you’ve heard it, it becomes easy to pick out (much like anything else, similar to “Where’s Waldo?&#8221.

still trying to make sense of this conversation or wth was going on there even if I listened to that enhanced part and never heard anything

I know you and I had some of this conversation before, maddie, when I first found WS and had worked on the recording. I wish you could hear it. It was this that forced the R’s to finally admit that BR was awake during the call, rather than sleeping soundly upstairs as they had previously maintained.

PLEASE,what do I do?
is this something he asks because he did something and is afraid of the consequences?

IMO, he is aware of the dire situation, he knows his sister is dead, he knows his parents have just called the police and that they are on their way (remember that at that point, all three R’s think the phone had been hung up). He needs and is asking for some direction on what he should do when the police arrive.

what did you find?
is it about the RN or the body?

IMO, he knows about her death, he knows things were done to prepare for the arrival of the police, but he doesn’t know what their plans are or exactly all the details. But he just heard his mother say something about finding a “ransom note” which he didn’t know anything about, so he’s asking her to tell him what it is that she said she found.

and why would JR bark at him they aren't talking to him?

JR is taking a big gamble on his ability to outsmart the BPD (Okay, maybe not that big of a gamble.) He and PR have spent most of the night scrambling to cover what happened and make it look like something completely different. After all they did, they just made the irreversible commitment to the lie that they will have to live with for the rest of their lives by calling 911 and reporting that their daughter is missing while she lays dead and rotting in their basement. PR is freaking out, asking for divine intervention, and BR is wanting to know the details of what they are thinking. JR doesn't want to be bothered by BR, and doesn't want to have to explain his actions to a child.

I understand the “bark”.

still a mystery to me

The only mystery to me is why the police never figured out that the call had to be made from the basement phone where the receiver could be not hung-up without falling off the wall like the one in the kitchen. This would have placed all three R’s in the basement before the police arrived.

 

[douce40]

Problem with the 'scare Patsy from calling the police' ransom note, is that apparently John told her to call the cops. There was no argument from John.

 

[midwest mama]

Problem with the 'scare Patsy from calling the police' ransom note, is that apparently John told her to call the cops. There was no argument from John.

Here's some information from another site source:

This gibes beautifully with John's original version of what happened, presented to public view for the first time in their Jan. 1, 1997 CNN interview, five days after the murder:
CABELL: John, you subsequently read the note. Was there anything in there that struck you in any sense?
RAMSEY, J: Well, no. I mean, I read it very fast. I was out of my mind. And it said "Don't call the police." You know, that type of thing. And I told Patsy, call the police immediately. And I think I ran through the house a bit.
Compare the above with the version she presents in the documentary produced for A&E by David Mills and Michael Tracey:
Man: The ransom note said, speaking to anyone about your situation such as the police, FBI etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded. If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies.
Patsy - "I said, 'I'm going to call the police and he said OK. And I think he ran to check on Burke. And I ran downstairs and, you know, dialed 911."
These two versions of what happened are totally inconsistent. The first version informs us that calling the police was John's idea. He is on hands and knees reading the note with Patsy beside him. The phone is on the wall next to her when she makes the call at his behest. According to the second version it is Patsy who decides to make the call. She informs John and he agrees. He then runs to check on Burke (in their book this had already been done). The phone is not right beside her. She runs downstairs to make the call.

Clearly Patsy lied. The question is: why. Which version is accurate? Or are they both fabrications?
------------------------------

With only the Ramseys able to tell us which one told whom or said they should call the police, and both of them saying they were running around and back and forth checking JB's room, then on Burke, then later, after learning the 911 tape had been enhanced, admitting Burke was awake and not asleep, how can we possiby know what the real truth is?

 

[madeleine]

http://www.acandyrose.com/04032001enquirer.htm

When asked when Burke woke up, John said it was after Patsy discovered the ransom note shortly after 5:30 a.m. Then he quickly changed his answer to say Burke woke up after the 911 call.

But then John changed his story again, calling The ENQUIRER as we went to press to say that Burke was awake BEFORE the 911 call. John told us:

"Burke recalled his mother screaming, 'Where's my baby?' and me saying, 'Calm down, calm down, we need to call the police.'"

John's admission that Burke was awake came after The ENQUIRER revealed to him and Patsy the details of our earlier exclusive report that Burke's voice is heard on an enhancement made of the 911 call. The youngster says, "What did you find?" and "What do you want me to do?"

John Ramsey tells his son, "We're not talking to you."

But Patsy still insists: "When I made that phone call, burke Ramsey was nowhere in the vicinity of the telephone."

Asked what goes through her mind when she recalls the events of JonBenet's death, Patsy gave a bizarre childlike answer.

"It kind of makes my heart go pitty-pat. I mean right now, I'm feeling like, gosh, this happened to my child."


:liar:


I tend to agree with otg....they are trying to distance Burke from the call and everything because the call was probably made from the basement phone

 

[Darlene733510]

I believe when JR said to BR:"we are not talking to you," was because of whatever happened, it was BR's fault. Why would JR say that if BR was totally innocent? JR was angry, because now he and PR had to concoct a story that they thought would be believable. That's when the staging began, and that ridiculous RN.
I think JB was unconscious, and when they realized she was still alive is when they used they used the garrote. Even the pretense of a sexual assault with the paintbrush was a cover-up for something that began with BR. I also believe that is why they were never called to testify before the GJ. It began with BR, and ended with him, after the GJ heard his testimony, there was no need to call the parents. The GJ had heard all they needed to know. It's a shame that AH ignored their verdict, but we know he was in the R camp from the beginning.

 

[madeleine]

I am also wondering whether or not the head bash happened while she was strangled (manually)....cause the garrotte makes sense if it was applied to cover up other neck injuries....

JB had dirt on her feet which means IMO that she was alive and well (standing) in the basement....why would she/they go to the basement...wrapped gifts or BR wanting to play with his train....he was already angry and jealous....a fight over toys doesn't explain the sexual assault though....but IMO it's possible everything happened in a fit of rage (BR)...

there are many possible scenarios:
>she was assaulted and hit in the head during the sexual assault (to shut her up)
>her head was bashed while she was manually strangled (cause if BR strangled her with the garrotte his parents wouldn't have left it there!)
>it was an overkill...he started and couldn't stop hurting her (all the anger exploded)


BTW,it might be that Kolar is right about JB's abrasions /train rail

 

[Darlene733510]

Kolar could be right about the train rail. BR had a train, or perhaps just some of the rail in his bedroom.
I still find it difficult to figure out where all this started. There is the blood on the pillow, so I wonder if it started in her room. Then there is the dirt on her feet - which could have come from the basement. Could she have been sitting on the chair that was down there? The partially opened gifts cause me to wonder who opened them? Was it someone who was looking for the panties, and took the Wednesday ones out, and got rid of the others? PR was the one who would have known they were there.
It was mentioned that JB didn't like the basement. Was she enticed there with the idea that maybe there were more presents there for her, or was it for BR to look for the presents for his birthday?
There was an unflushed toilet in the basement. I believe an adult would flush after having a BM. The R's admitted that both children sometimes did not flush after they used the toilet.

 

[midwest mama]

Kolar could be right about the train rail. BR had a train, or perhaps just some of the rail in his bedroom.
I still find it difficult to figure out where all this started. There is the blood on the pillow, so I wonder if it started in her room. Then there is the dirt on her feet - which could have come from the basement. Could she have been sitting on the chair that was down there? The partially opened gifts cause me to wonder who opened them? Was it someone who was looking for the panties, and took the Wednesday ones out, and got rid of the others? PR was the one who would have known they were there.
It was mentioned that JB didn't like the basement. Was she enticed there with the idea that maybe there were more presents there for her, or was it for BR to look for the presents for his birthday?
There was an unflushed toilet in the basement. I believe an adult would flush after having a BM. The R's admitted that both children sometimes did not flush after they used the toilet.

Kolar's book clarified that during investigation, it was determined that Burke had opened the packages in the WC.

 

[DeeDee249]

Kolar's book clarified that during investigation, it was determined that Burke had opened the packages in the WC.

Then it is certain that he was in the winecellar that night and that the Hi-Tec shoe print could very well be his. This is reinforced by his parents' denial that he owned such a pair (especially when he told LE he DID own them).

 

[midwest mama]

Then it is certain that he was in the winecellar that night and that the Hi-Tec shoe print could very well be his. This is reinforced by his parents' denial that he owned such a pair (especially when he told LE he DID own them).

Here's the quote from pg 339 of Kolar's book:
"I learned, over the course of my inquiry, that it was Burke who had actually been responsible for tearing back the paper of the presents while playing in the basement on Christmas Day, and I wondered why Patsy would claim responsibility for doing this. Patsy had also told investigators that the unwrapped box of Lego toys in the same room was being hidden for Burke's upcoming January birthday."

So, actually, it places Burke in the WC during the day, not that night. If he had his Hi-Tec's on during the day, the print could have happened then also.

According to a couple of sources, we do believe Burke had Hi-Tec boots. If he didn't have his boots on during the day of Christmas while playing in the house and getting into the WC, then it still leaves open the possibility that the print of the Hi-Tec was from his boots, but happened at a different time, perhaps that night.

Or, we go back to the conflicting evidence of the Hi-Tec print being from someone in LE that day after the body was found.

 

[BOESP]

Other things to consider:

Burke peaking at presents at any time doesn't preclude Patsy looking for wrapped size 12 panties that night.

Burke caught looking for his birthday present could indicate Patsy lost her temper with him.

Burke being down there innocently since a nine-year-old boy peaking at presents isn't exactly incriminating in JonBenet's death.

Burke could have looked for the panties or was otherwise in the ante room to the wine cellar but at that time of night after an active, exciting day that was to be followed with early rising the next morning, it would be unlikely imo.

There are probably other innocent explanations but I've not decided exactly what Kolar was trying to say in his book. Some of his writing seemed obtuse. Imo, Steve Thomas's version still makes the most sense and perhaps Kolar tried to show that Burke had been abused too. It is futile to try to come to a conclusion without hearing/seeing all evidence involved in this case.

 

[midwest mama]

Other things to consider:

Burke peaking at presents at any time doesn't preclude Patsy looking for wrapped size 12 panties that night.

Burke caught looking for his birthday present could indicate Patsy lost her temper with him.

Burke being down there innocently since a nine-year-old boy peaking at presents isn't exactly incriminating in JonBenet's death.

Burke could have looked for the panties or was otherwise in the ante room to the wine cellar but at that time of night after an active, exciting day that was to be followed with early rising the next morning, it would be unlikely imo.

There are probably other innocent explanations but I've not decided exactly what Kolar was trying to say in his book. Some of his writing seemed obtuse. Imo, Steve Thomas's version still makes the most sense and perhaps Kolar tried to show that Burke had been abused too. It is futile to try to come to a conclusion without hearing/seeing all evidence involved in this case.

Yes, BOESP, it FEELS and SEEMS futile, at times, when trying to piece this case together without being privy to all the info, doesn't it? But it is not futile, in the sense that any ongoing interest and perchance bit of unconsidered information might brush off on someone, somewhere who knows that one final bit of real information that is needed to break this case.

Keep the Faith - believe that an innocent and beautiful young girl deserves her final justice! It is NOT impossible - just delayed until the last puzzle piece falls into place.

 

[BOESP]

Yes, BOESP, it FEELS and SEEMS futile, at times, when trying to piece this case together without being privy to all the info, doesn't it? But it is not futile, in the sense that any ongoing interest and perchance bit of unconsidered information might brush off on someone, somewhere who knows that one final bit of real informatiot n that is needed to break this case.

Keep the Faith - believe that an innocent and beautiful young girl deserves her final justice! It is NOT impossible - just delayed until the last puzzle piece falls into place.

MM, I haven't lost faith that this case is solvable, just that the lay person without knowing all that is available can't come to a valid conclusion. I have no doubt that a jury in a court of law could/would come to a conclusion, provided all evidence was admitted whether inclusive or exclusive. Patsy denied by name that she, John or Burke killed JonBenet but she hedged when asked if it could have been an accident. She replied, "I don't know."

 

[midwest mama]

MM, I haven't lost faith that this case is solvable, just that the lay person without knowing all that is available can't come to a valid conclusion. I have no doubt that a jury in a court of law could/would come to a conclusion, provided all evidence was admitted whether inclusive or exclusive. Patsy denied by name that she, John or Burke killed JonBenet but she hedged when asked if it could have been an accident. She replied, "I don't know."

Ah..... I probably have to agree with you about a lay person coming to a conclusion that still doesn't leave some doubt or an escape hatch to a different conclusion if opinions about the evidence are challenged. Causes me frustration, to say the least, with my own versions of theory.

I am wondering from your take on Patsy's "hedging" when asked about the possibility of an accident, since she denies that any of the 3 of them killed JB - do you think the strangulation with the ligature happened accidentally, along with the blow to her head possibly being an accident which might have happened somehow also? Maybe in a tussle of some sort during the assault?
Do you think that Patsy knew who caused this, and that she simply saw one of the three of them as causing JB's "accidental death", and her mind this was not one of them "killing" her? Or, do you think Patsy had someone else in mind when saying she did not know if JB's death was an accident - maybe someone they knew, since I'm sure if she thought it was an intruder she never would have given the impression that she thought an intruder killed JB by accident.

 

[BOESP]

Ah..... I probably have to agree with you about a lay person coming to a conclusion that still doesn't leave some doubt or an escape hatch to a different conclusion if opinions about the evidence are challenged. Causes me frustration, to say the least, with my own versions of theory.

I am wondering from your take on Patsy's "hedging" when asked about the possibility of an accident, since she denies that any of the 3 of them killed JB - do you think the strangulation with the ligature happened accidentally, along with the blow to her head possibly being an accident which might have happened somehow also? Maybe in a tussle of some sort during the assault?
Do you think that Patsy knew who caused this, and that she simply saw one of the three of them as causing JB's "accidental death", and her mind this was not one of them "killing" her? Or, do you think Patsy had someone else in mind when saying she did not know if JB's death was an accident - maybe someone they knew, since I'm sure if she thought it was an intruder she never would have given the impression that she thought an intruder killed JB by accident.

I think JonBenet's vaginal trauma was purposeful, the head trauma accidental, and the ligature strangulation was purposeful. To what purposes ... I don't know or haven't decided because I don't have access to all the evidence.

I think Patsy knew who did it and how it happened and her stumbling around in police interviews is typical of someone trying to cya. :twocents: