What was the original plan (re the body)?

[cwajjk]

Is there any evidence to suggest that the plan originally was to dispose of the body outside of the house?

 

[UKGuy]

Is there any evidence to suggest that the plan originally was to dispose of the body outside of the house?

cwajjk,
Not really. Unless you want to make something out of the samsonite suitcase in the basement?

Even depositing JonBenet just outside the house, say where the bat *advertiser censored* club was found would have completely changed the case into an IDI certainty.

I doubt Patsy would want her baby left out in the open to be at the mercy of the elements and wild animals, etc.

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[dogperson]

I think they expected the police to leave after no ransom call was received. The ransom letter said she had been taken, so I think the Ramseys thought the police would pursue avenues of investigation away from the house. This would have allowed the family to also leave the house with the body, but I can't picture them just dumping it somewhere. They may not have had a clear plan of where exactly to take the body but I think they knew they had to get it out of the house at the first opportunity. Was the suitcase going to be used? Maybe so. And maybe a hole was going to be dug somewhere that would have been the right size for it. Or maybe, as some have suggested in other threads, it was to be dropped from John's plane.

 

[UKGuy]

I think they expected the police to leave after no ransom call was received. The ransom letter said she had been taken, so I think the Ramseys thought the police would pursue avenues of investigation away from the house. This would have allowed the family to also leave the house with the body, but I can't picture them just dumping it somewhere. They may not have had a clear plan of where exactly to take the body but I think they knew they had to get it out of the house at the first opportunity. Was the suitcase going to be used? Maybe so. And maybe a hole was going to be dug somewhere that would have been the right size for it. Or maybe, as some have suggested in other threads, it was to be dropped from John's plane.

dogperson,
The Ramsey's did have a plan, but probably one that was fluid and open to change. One plan I thought was possible was taking a dead JonBenet onto JR's plane and after depositing JonBenet's body post-landing, to then dial 911 and scream kidnapping?

Since nobody would need to talk to JonBenet, she could be described as sleeping, due to an early rise, etc. In other words the Ramsey's could really decide when to dial 911, there would no immediate time constraints.

BTW, dropping JonBenet from the plane alerts the pilot and if JonBenet falls on someones head then the flight plan and subsequent log would point at the parents.

In this case I sometimes think it helps to ask why did the parents not do X or Y? In this case its why did they not take JonBenet onto their plane?

By posing questions this way I've come round to thinking JonBenet was staged at least twice, once say in her bedroom, then again in the wine-cellar.

So what made the parents go for this option and decline the plane or even deposit JonBenet outdoors route?

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[Userid]

I think they expected the police to leave after no ransom call was received. The ransom letter said she had been taken, so I think the Ramseys thought the police would pursue avenues of investigation away from the house. This would have allowed the family to also leave the house with the body, but I can't picture them just dumping it somewhere. They may not have had a clear plan of where exactly to take the body but I think they knew they had to get it out of the house at the first opportunity. Was the suitcase going to be used? Maybe so. And maybe a hole was going to be dug somewhere that would have been the right size for it. Or maybe, as some have suggested in other threads, it was to be dropped from John's plane.

I agree with part of this post but disagree that the plan would be to drop her from the plane. For one thing, this would not be easy. You can't just open the door of an airplane mid-flight and throw something out without getting sucked out yourself.

But yes, I agree that there was a plan. That's why she was wrapped the way she was. They were going to dispose of her, but they were going to do so in as "formal" and respectful way as possible. I can see perhaps her being transported on the plane with the intent to bury the body in Georgia.

 

[FY1234]

I think that John and Patsy disagreed what to do with the body (John wanted to dispose of it and Patsy did not want her baby out in the cold) and then may have decided that they wanted the body to be found and John got frustrated when that didn't happen and "found" it himself.

 

[UKGuy]

I think that John and Patsy disagreed what to do with the body (John wanted to dispose of it and Patsy did not want her baby out in the cold) and then may have decided that they wanted the body to be found and John got frustrated when that didn't happen and "found" it himself.

FY1234,

I think that John and Patsy disagreed what to do with the body

I agree, it appears as if Patsy redressed JonBenet. The extent of her redressing depends on your favorite theory.

Then again, fibers from John's Israeli shirt were found on JonBenet's pubic area, not quite a smoking gun, but they should not be there.

What is inexplicable, to me, is if you assume PDI, why did Patsy redress JonBenet in the size-12's and Burke's longjohns, since the longjohns inject Burke into the case, never mind the size-12's representing an obvious red flag?

What about the Bloodstained Pink Barbie Nightgown left beside JonBenet in the wine-cellar, how did the blood arrive on the Nightgown, but not on say the longjohns or the White Gap Top, IMO this is evidence of a prior staging.

Did Patsy put JonBenet to bed wearing the Nightgown, a favorite by all accounts? JonBenet had her hair dressed for bed in ponytails, with the pineapple snack overlooked, it looks like JonBenet made it to her bed?

So JonBenet's bloodstained size-6 Bloomingdales vanished in one direction, whilst her bloodstained Pink Barbie Nightgown landed up next to her in the wine-cellar, how so, is this indirect evidence of more than one staging event, also consider how her pink pajama bottoms, worn the night before have never been found?

Speculating : JonBenet was staged in her bedroom wearing the pink barbie nightgown, which replaced the pink pajama set, e.g. at this point JonBenet is minus her size-6 underwear and pink pajama bottoms as the stager knows they are bloodstained and possibly have biometric deposits from her assailant?

Later, due to JonBenet bleeding, the Pink Barbie Nightgown becomes bloodstained, so John wipes JonBenet down, removes the Nightgown and replaces it with the White Gap Top, and invents the straight to bed story?

The exact sequence of events is difficult to recreate but different sets of hands do appear to be at work as her size-6 underwear vanishes, but not her bloodstained nightgown, suggesting more than one staging event?

This is why I think the Bloodstained Nightgown is important.

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[Dragognosis]

Maybe the plan was to put the body in the small room.

 

[NanaNZA]

Why didn’t the nightgown end up with the size 6 panties and the pink pajama bottoms (wherever they ended up)?

 

[UKGuy]

Why didn’t the nightgown end up with the size 6 panties and the pink pajama bottoms (wherever they ended up)?

NanaNZA,
Good question, few have answers as this is an anomaly that does not fit into some of the RDI theories.

I've speculated elsewhere that it looks like different people at different points through the night redressed JonBenet.

That there is blood on the nightgown likely from when JonBenet was wiped down, e.g. check out Coroner Meyer's verbatim remarks, suggests the blood was deposited when JonBenet was first dressed in the nightgown or when it was removed to be replaced by Burke's longjohns?

So the way I see it someone removed JonBenet's size-6 underwear along with the pink pajama bottoms precisely because they were bloodstained, and the same person could have then redressed JonBenet in Burke's longjohns?

Next up is John wiping JonBenet down and leaving his fibers on her pubic area, so at this point maybe he intended to redress JonBenet in the nighgown but failed to do so?

This assumes John deposits blood onto the nightgown via cross-transfer from JonBenet. The various scenarios seem to be:

1. JonBenet wears her Pink Pajama Set to bed.

2. JonBenet wears her Barbie Nightgown to bed.

3. JonBenet wears the Red Turtleneck to bed.

It could transpire that all three scenarios were played out ending up being revised to include other bedtime clothing?

For example, it might be that the real sequence is 3. 1. 2. ?

So the nightgown never ended up leaving with either JonBenet's size-6 underwear or/and her pink pajama bottoms because the person removing them is not the same person who was involved in any subsequent staging?


So if you reject Patsy's explanation regarding the size-12's and longjohns, another scenario might be:

4. JonBenet wears her Pink Pajama Set to bed.

5. Someone redresses JonBenet in the size-12's and longjohns.

6. A different person then intends to dress JonBenet in the nightgown but fails to carry it out for whatever reason?


It could be that the Pink Pajama Set is a red herring and it played no role with the pajama bottoms lost somewhere down the Ramsey Rabbit Hole?

This would make life easier to offer theories as to why JonBenet ended up wearing what she did.


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[Bob4444]

Sloppy planning its hard to focus when in a panic, why place the body downstairs and then go through all the trouble. I think they were just winging it the fibers around her lower area is a grave concern.

 

[UKGuy]

Sloppy planning its hard to focus when in a panic, why place the body downstairs and then go through all the trouble. I think they were just winging it the fibers around her lower area is a grave concern.

Bob4444,
ah, but there was planning. They moved JonBenet from upstairs to downstairs so to create the fiction of an abduction.

This is where it gets tricky, since was JonBenet redressed upstairs or downstairs, or both with more than say one staging event?

So Patsy might be remembering her Red Turtleneck that she staged JonBenet in then John revised this to the White Gap Top to match an Abduction Scenario as he wiped JonBenet down bloodstaining the Nightgown, forcing him to go for the Gap Top?

Who can believe Patsy's version of events, especially if you reckon Patsy wanted JonBenet to be presented flawlessly, i.e. undone yet she ignores the Red Flag size-12's and denies knowing whenever JonBenet put those on, telling investigators she put a pack of size-12 Bloomingdale underwear in JonBenet's underwear drawer, yet when the investigators looked, guess what, no size-12's, none, zilch, all gone !

Why would Patsy dress JonBenet in Burke's longjohns but leave her wearing the size-12's?

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[FY1234]

Why didn’t the nightgown end up with the size 6 panties and the pink pajama bottoms (wherever they ended up)?

Great question- I wondered about this too!

Cottonstar what do you think?

 

[NanaNZA]

The only thing I can think of is maybe what UKGuy said about different people staging/hiding different aspects of the crime? Maybe the person who got rid of the size 6 panties and pink PJ bottoms was a different person than who was responsible for the blood getting on the nightgown; and/or maybe there was more damning DNA intermingled with the blood on those two garments, so they had to go missing.

What about the item that was used to 'wipe down' JBR? This item would have blood on it also.
The blue/black fibers found on JBR..were they from this item used to wipe her down; or were they deposited onto JBR by someone/something else?

And then there's missing piece of paintbrush; that would also have had blood on it.