What we know about Ransom Note

[voynich]

Most impressive. Unfortunately, your counterclaim is fundamentally flawed in two important ways:

1) Cherokee's analysis is essentially a distillation of expert opinion, people who know what they're talking about. It's not something he/she just whipped up out of thin air.

2) Remember how I warned you in the past about cutting up the RN into pieces? Yes, each singular aspect can be argued. But when you put the WHOLE THING together, as Cherokee did--when you take the holistic view I keep telling people about, the conclusion becomes, to be blunt, inescapable.

But then, this knowledge cannot be learned from a Jedi.

Not if anything to say McMenamin has.

I accept Gerald R. McMenamin as valid unless contradicted by a forensic linguist of comparable statute. Surprised? (Jumps in front of you, ignites green lightsaber) if so powerful you are, why read?

your faith in your new 1) and 2) misplaced may be, as is your faith in the dark side of the force.

 

[BBB167893]

Not if anything to say McMenamin has.

I accept Gerald R. McMenamin as valid unless contradicted by a forensic linguist of comparable statute.

Careful what you wish for, and all that.

Surprised? (Jumps in front of you, ignites green lightsaber) if so powerful you are, why read?

Good question!

your faith in your new 1) and 2) misplaced may be, as is your faith in the dark side of the force.

Once more the Sith WILL rule.

 

[notfemen]

I dont know if any of you noticed but the Ramsey's description of the RN's discovery is very odd. Patsy said she went down the stairs, stopped to look at the RN on the 3rd stair, went down and read it directly without touching it, and then gives the RN to John who places it on the floor and squats to read it? No one would ever do that!!

When you see papers on the floor or in this case the stairs you pick them and read them, as a mother she should have thought that the kids could have placed it or dropped it, or even her husband. You dont automatically think something is weird when you see paper on the floor, and if your wife gives you a "ransom note" you take it and you read, you dont place it on the floor to do that.

Aaand we all know kids like to make pranks, the first thing you think when you discover something like that is someone is pranking me and you search all the house before deciding to call the police i guess ?

 

[Userid]

I dont know if any of you noticed but the Ramsey's description of the RN's discovery is very odd. Patsy said she went down the stairs, stopped to look at the RN on the 3rd stair, went down and read it directly without touching it, and then gives the RN to John who places it on the floor and squats to read it? No one would ever do that!!

When you see papers on the floor or in this case the stairs you pick them and read them, as a mother she should have thought that the kids could have placed it or dropped it, or even her husband. You dont automatically think something is weird when you see paper on the floor, and if your wife gives you a "ransom note" you take it and you read, you dont place it on the floor to do that.

Aaand we all know kids like to make pranks, the first thing you think when you discover something like that is someone is pranking me and you search all the house before deciding to call the police i guess ?

Yes, that's been discussed before, but it's never bad to rehash the discussion.

Another thing that's odd about her statement is that, she said she had to "step over" the stair that it was on, and land (with her lead foot) on the step beneath the one that had the ransom note -- on a spiral stair case, this would have been all but impossible; or at the very least, extremely awkward, incredibly difficult, and all but unnecessary compared to simply remaining on the step above and picking up the note.

The question is: why lie about "coming down" the stairs? Why was it important for PR to say she came down those stairs? Couldn't she have said she simply came down the other set of stairs, walked through the kitchen, and then found the note? To me, she lied because she wanted to completely distance herself from ever being on the first floor at all that night and that morning -- she wanted police to believe that she was strictly upstairs in bed the entire night/morning. Also, she knew that it would be discovered that she was doing laundry that morning, so she couldn't use the other staircase as an alibi; and she wouldn't have done laundry after discovering the ransom note. That was a part of her alibi, correct? That she was doing laundry (upstairs, by JBR's room), before discovering the ransom note?

 

[UKGuy]

I dont know if any of you noticed but the Ramsey's description of the RN's discovery is very odd. Patsy said she went down the stairs, stopped to look at the RN on the 3rd stair, went down and read it directly without touching it, and then gives the RN to John who places it on the floor and squats to read it? No one would ever do that!!

When you see papers on the floor or in this case the stairs you pick them and read them, as a mother she should have thought that the kids could have placed it or dropped it, or even her husband. You dont automatically think something is weird when you see paper on the floor, and if your wife gives you a "ransom note" you take it and you read, you dont place it on the floor to do that.

Aaand we all know kids like to make pranks, the first thing you think when you discover something like that is someone is pranking me and you search all the house before deciding to call the police i guess ?

notfemen,
Its little details like this that inform you the Ramseys are covering something up. Yet they both say they handled the RN, yet no fingerprints, maybe they got lucky?

IMO the RN does not mean Kidnapped to the Ramseys it just means Hey JonBenet was moved from her bedroom to the basement, so it must have been that Nasty Kidnapper.

The wine-cellar has all been staged including her clothing, she was likely wearing the pink nightgown, but it did not fit put straight to bed, so for afficionados the R's must have dreamt up a prior staging and an alternative version of events to match JonBenet reaching her bed, partial proof is she has her hair dressed for bed in hair-ties, no way would she show up at the White's Party with her hair like that.

Note: nobody ever quizzed the R's about this they knew it was dynamite which suggests a charade of interviewing took place, e.g. ask a question, get an answer, next question, etc.

.

 

[fr brown]

In her first interview, Patsy is fairly clear that she didn't touch the note, though eventually she says she might have when Steve Thomas begins hinting that he has evidence that she had touched it.

In her second interview, she gets pretty wild, claiming that when she returned downstairs after screaming for John, the note was "still on the floor."

"TOM HANEY: You come down the spiral stairs. The note is--

PATSY RAMSEY: The note is --

TOM HANEY: -- same place, different place?

PATSY RAMSEY: Somewhere in this area, maybe still on the floor or something, you know. I don't know what happened to it exactly when I bounded upstairs. I think it was right there somewhere.

TOM HANEY: The second time you don't recall exactly where it was?

PATSY RAMSEY: I think it was laying around on the floor here somewhere or something. After I went up the stairs. It was
there somewhere. I know I came down here, and I either handed it to John or he went in and picked it up. Anyway I came over to the phone."

 

[Userid]

In her first interview, Patsy is fairly clear that she didn't touch the note, though eventually she says she might have when Steve Thomas begins hinting that he has evidence that she had touched it.

In her second interview, she gets pretty wild, claiming that when she returned downstairs after screaming for John, the note was "still on the floor."

"TOM HANEY: You come down the spiral stairs. The note is--

PATSY RAMSEY: The note is --

TOM HANEY: -- same place, different place?

PATSY RAMSEY: Somewhere in this area, maybe still on the floor or something, you know. I don't know what happened to it exactly when I bounded upstairs. I think it was right there somewhere.

TOM HANEY: The second time you don't recall exactly where it was?

PATSY RAMSEY: I think it was laying around on the floor here somewhere or something. After I went up the stairs. It was
there somewhere. I know I came down here, and I either handed it to John or he went in and picked it up. Anyway I came over to the phone."

In this exchange, she knows she's in deep crap because if she had just "left the note on the step" without touching it, it still would have breezed off of the step when she "bounded up the stairs" -- in addition, it would have been just as difficult for her to "bound" over that step as it would have been to descend over that step. Either way, the note would have needed to be touched by at least JR.

I always found it odd how she claimed she simply left the note behind when she went to check on JBR and when she went to wake up JR -- wouldn't a normal person take the note (or at least the first page of what you were reading) while going to check her room and/or going to wake up JR, in order to immediately show him the note she just found? But no, she leaves the note all the way downstairs, goes to check on JBR, then leads JR to the note which is all the way down on the first floor, when she could have simply brought the note up herself. It's just beyond logical to me.

 

[fr brown]

In this exchange, she knows she's in deep crap because if she had just "left the note on the step" without touching it, it still would have breezed off of the step when she "bounded up the stairs" -- in addition, it would have been just as difficult for her to "bound" over that step as it would have been to descend over that step. Either way, the note would have needed to be touched by at least JR.

I always found it odd how she claimed she simply left the note behind when she went to check on JBR and when she went to wake up JR -- wouldn't a normal person take the note (or at least the first page of what you were reading) while going to check her room and/or going to wake up JR, in order to immediately show him the note she just found? But no, she leaves the note all the way downstairs, goes to check on JBR, then leads JR to the note which is all the way down on the first floor, when she could have simply brought the note up herself. It's just beyond logical to me.

Yeah, and if it had blown off the steps as she flew over it, would she say that it was "still on the floor" when she came back down? Where would it be? Because in this version, John hasn't been downstairs yet so he hasn't had the opportunity to pick it up.

They didn't have their stories straight even in '98. While Patsy is saying the note is on the floor when she runs upstairs screaming for John the first time, he's saying that she met him on the stairs and handed it to him. But (of course) he can't quite remember.

On another thread I mentioned that in Ofc. French's report of 12/26, 1300 he says that Ramsey took him to the location of the note (on the floor over by the door) and told him that Patsy had found the note on the stairs. In his report, French comments that he (French) is uncertain as to how the note got over by the door. John apparently wasn't claiming to have done it at that time.

 

[fr brown]

Personally, I think that the note was always on the floor by the door because that's where Patsy put it. Nobody except Patsy claims to have seen it laying on the stairs. John must have been surprised when she didn't tell French she'd moved it over to the door. At that point, he would've smelled a rat.

I know I hold a minority opinion on this point, but it does explain why their stories don't sync up. Why not just tell a partial truth? It was on the stairs, then X or Y moved it or it was near the door and it caught Patsy's eye when she came downstairs. You don't have to admit writing it.

I'm not sure why she went with the stairs story. On the floor over by a patio door is an unlikely place to put a ransom note. Next to the coffee pot would seem to be a better place, at least in my house.

 

[fr brown]

I think of the events this way: John appears to have been a womanizer during his first marriage. On that topic Vanity Fair says this: "According to police reports, his former wife, Lucinda, said it was a romantic liaison with a co-worker that was the last straw for her. Although [Jim] Marino and Ramsey caroused 'and whored around together,' Marino says Ramsey was notably discreet." I'm unclear as to whether the "whoring around" was just during the separation period, but his first wife clearly thought he had affairs plural during their marriage."

It seems possible that Patsy suspected John was cheating on her and he that may have done something besides visiting his plane Christmas day. Perhaps she thought he was disappointed that her cancer had gone into remission and he had been looking forward to being rid of her without the expense of divorce. If his eye then wandered at the party, she might have been in a barely controlled rage when they got home. She didn't go to bed. What was she doing? Packing? If so, that could have made her even angrier.

Then she lashes out in rage at JonBenet and she's in a major pickle. In her position, I would assume that John would figure it out and turn on me. Colorado's not a community property state so when he divorces her, she's only going to get what a judge deems suitable, and that might not be much for someone who killed her child. In her position, if I hated my spouse, I might try to frame him or at least put him in the same jeopardy as me.

So I speculate that she put the ransom note on the floor to induce John to pick it up and get his fingerprints on it.

 

[Cottonstar]

In this exchange, she knows she's in deep crap because if she had just "left the note on the step" without touching it, it still would have breezed off of the step when she "bounded up the stairs" -- in addition, it would have been just as difficult for her to "bound" over that step as it would have been to descend over that step. Either way, the note would have needed to be touched by at least JR.

I always found it odd how she claimed she simply left the note behind when she went to check on JBR and when she went to wake up JR -- wouldn't a normal person take the note (or at least the first page of what you were reading) while going to check her room and/or going to wake up JR, in order to immediately show him the note she just found? But no, she leaves the note all the way downstairs, goes to check on JBR, then leads JR to the note which is all the way down on the first floor, when she could have simply brought the note up herself. It's just beyond logical to me.

In this exchange, she knows she's in deep crap because if she had just "left the note on the step" without touching it, it still would have breezed off of the step when she "bounded up the stairs" -- in addition, it would have been just as difficult for her to "bound" over that step as it would have been to descend over that step. Either way, the note would have needed to be touched by at least JR.

I always found it odd how she claimed she simply left the note behind when she went to check on JBR and when she went to wake up JR -- wouldn't a normal person take the note (or at least the first page of what you were reading) while going to check her room and/or going to wake up JR, in order to immediately show him the note she just found? But no, she leaves the note all the way downstairs, goes to check on JBR, then leads JR to the note which is all the way down on the first floor, when she could have simply brought the note up herself. It's just beyond logical to me.

It’s completely illogical. In 100% of legit kidnapping scenarios, you would pick up the note and read it 5 times. It’s would have creases and signs of handling all over it. You wouldn’t read just a few lines like Patsy said she did. That note is your lifeline.

 

[Userid]

Personally, I think that the note was always on the floor by the door because that's where Patsy put it. Nobody except Patsy claims to have seen it laying on the stairs. John must have been surprised when she didn't tell French she'd moved it over to the door. At that point, he would've smelled a rat.

I know I hold a minority opinion on this point, but it does explain why their stories don't sync up. Why not just tell a partial truth? It was on the stairs, then X or Y moved it or it was near the door and it caught Patsy's eye when she came downstairs. You don't have to admit writing it.

I'm not sure why she went with the stairs story. On the floor over by a patio door is an unlikely place to put a ransom note. Next to the coffee pot would seem to be a better place, at least in my house.

Yes, very possible scenario. And you ask a great question: why then, would she say she found it on the stairs? I still don't know the answer to this question. I mean, relatively speaking, you could have put that note anywhere. Let's use the kitchen counter top as an example: PR could have simply said, that after doing some laundry, she went into the kitchen to fix a cup of coffee, and found the note on the counter. There was nothing stopping her from doing that -- so why wouldn't she have just said that? One possibility I can think of is that, they wanted to frame it more as an "inside job" by the "kidnapper" (i.e. an "insider") who would know that PR takes the staircase in the morning.

Who was the guy who said he read the note through the butler door? Was it FW? Anyways, could he have gotten there before the call was made to police? I doubt it, but that would be another reason as to why PR didn't simply use a more explainable (for lack of a better word) location for the note.

 

[Tadpole12]

Eagle eyes, JF.
X Ray eyes, PR.

Userid, PR spots the note on the same steps that she is in the habit of leaving her purse on, for LHP to clean and 'change purses'.
PR signature?
always a bit too much?

 

[Userid]

Eagle eyes, JF.
X Ray eyes, PR.
Userid, PR spots the note on the same steps that she is in the habit of leaving her purse on, for LHP to clean and 'change purses'.
PR signature?
always a bit too much?

Really? I never knew that!

 

[Tadpole12]

JonBenet Ramsey Case Encyclopedia / Worked for Ramsey Family

Incriminating Evidence Against Linda Hoffman-Pugh:

"Knew they would be using the back staircase and which was commonly used to leave Patsy's purses to be cleaned for her."

 

[Userid]

JonBenet Ramsey Case Encyclopedia / Worked for Ramsey Family

Incriminating Evidence Against Linda Hoffman-Pugh:

"Knew they would be using the back staircase and which was commonly used to leave Patsy's purses to be cleaned for her."

Well, that would answer why PR needed to leave the note there -- because that is where LHP would have left it (had she committed the kidnapping), since she would know first-hand that PR would find it there. To me, this is a case of PR shooting herself in the foot. She's trying to deliberately frame LHP specifically (who else would leave the note there, but the one housekeeper who would always pick up the purses from the same spot?), but she over-compensated with the placement of the note in her attempt to frame this specific housekeeper.

 

[notfemen]

Another thing that's odd about her statement is that, she said she had to "step over" the stair that it was on, and land (with her lead foot) on the step beneath the one that had the ransom note -- on a spiral stair case, this would have been all but impossible; or at the very least, extremely awkward, incredibly difficult, and all but unnecessary compared to simply remaining on the step above and picking up the note.

Yeah it's all about PR and JR's behaviors, more precisely how they describe their behaviors, why would they make up a story with that much weirdness, i keep imagining myself in her "situation" and i can't see myself facing the situation like that, it's so obvious that it keeps bothering me everynight when i go to sleep

 

[Cottonstar]

The Victim advocates had also heard Patsy say, “Whoever left the note knew that I always come down those stairs in the morning.”

20/20 vision 20 plus years later, and you can see how and why they said the things they did that morning. Oh, Patsy.

 

[notfemen]

Yeah but even if she DOES come down those stairs in the morning, when you see paper on the floor you pick it, you're chill, the Ramsey's maid said they were very messy and lazy so it's not unusual to find stuff on the floor, and really WHO WOULD PLACE A RANSOM ON THE FLOOR to read it, you have a RN you keep it with you, you try to read the most of it on a desk or at the table or even standing, otherwise it's just bizarre

 

[fr brown]

Well, that would answer why PR needed to leave the note there -- because that is where LHP would have left it (had she committed the kidnapping), since she would know first-hand that PR would find it there. To me, this is a case of PR shooting herself in the foot. She's trying to deliberately frame LHP specifically (who else would leave the note there, but the one housekeeper who would always pick up the purses from the same spot?), but she over-compensated with the placement of the note in her attempt to frame this specific housekeeper.

Except that I don't think she did do that. If it had been on the stairs as she claimed, why was it so hard to come up with a single version of events? French couldn't figure out how it got over to the door, presumably because neither of them would say he/she did that (even though there would be nothing inherently damning about moving it).

In his first interview, John says that the note was still on the "first floor" when Patsy ran up the stairs. Then he says "we saw the note," but doesn't say where it was. He never says it was on the stairs and he doesn't say it was on the floor. It would have been nice if the interviewer had pressed, but he didn't.

Deciding to throw suspicion on LHP for the crime is a plausible explanation, I think, for claiming it was on the stairs. Patsy did tell the police that the ransom note writing looked like LHP's, though she quickly thought better of that. Maybe she had a chance to think of what would happen when LHP turned out to have an alibi.