What we know about Ransom Note

[UKGuy]

Other than motive, the time frame of the crime is the major difficulty in the case. PDI provides the most succinct succession of events. She kills JB, stages the WC scene and pens the RN. Obviously, she would have been occupied, to say the least. (Perhaps, this has to do with the exhausting delivery and the need to rest up contained in the RN?) Doing the laundry just may not have seemed important, given the enormity of the undertaking. Besides, PR was clever to wear last night's outfit to greet LE, as this could explain fiber transfers, once the house had been contaminated. The same with JR and his contamination of the body. Part of the staging involved the R's intentionally calling over a crowd to make sure nothing could be conclusive.
Some pieces of evidence have never been found, as best we know. Getting rid of them would have taken planning. Could PR have managed everything by herself? As discussed here previously, the messiness and errors of the staging could be due to more than one R taking part in it, with do-overs occurring during the course of the night.
If PR is covering for BR, the timeline stretches out a bit.

proust20,
A clue to the timeframe follows from when you think JonBenet died?

This timeframe is limited by the estimated time for rigor mortis to develop, approximately four hours.

With no unexpected blaching on JonBenet's body she was not apparently moved?

Would any of the Ramsey's attempted redressing JonBenet once full rigor mortis was in place?

Patsy's fibers found embedded into the ligature knotting cannot be explained away as accidental transfer.

They place Patsy with JonBenet and point to her as asphyxiating JonBenet?

Patsy did admit to washing some items that morning?

So the case could be PDI with John assisting in the latter stages suggesting revisions and removal of evidence?

The person(s) staging JonBenet in the wine-cellar knew full well it would all be revealed as bogus at a later date, as they simply replaced the forensic items back into the Paint Tote, e.g. broken paintbrush, including hiding her internal injury and bleeding with the long johns, so no mistake, simply indifference.

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[887sMtreme]

proust20,
A clue to the timeframe follows from when you think JonBenet died?

This timeframe is limited by the estimated time for rigor mortis to develop, approximately four hours.

With no unexpected blaching on JonBenet's body she was not apparently moved?

Would any of the Ramsey's attempted redressing JonBenet once full rigor mortis was in place?

Patsy's fibers found embedded into the ligature knotting cannot be explained away as accidental transfer.

They place Patsy with JonBenet and point to her as asphyxiating JonBenet?

Patsy did admit to washing some items that morning?

So the case could be PDI with John assisting in the latter stages suggesting revisions and removal of evidence?

The person(s) staging JonBenet in the wine-cellar knew full well it would all be revealed as bogus at a later date, as they simply replaced the forensic items back into the Paint Tote, e.g. broken paintbrush, including hiding her internal injury and bleeding with the long johns, so no mistake, simply indifference.

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Let’s not forget Pam Paugh donning police togs to go back into the house and carrying out who-knows-what. Missing evidence could well have been in that trash bag and discarded. Such devoted sisters.

 

[UKGuy]

Let’s not forget Pam Paugh donning police togs to go back into the house and carrying out who-knows-what. Missing evidence could well have been in that trash bag and discarded. Such devoted sisters.

887sMtreme,
Sure, well observed. Would Pam Paugh have run the risk of felony forensic crime-scene charges if she thought the case was JDI?

But helping her sister evade legal scrutiny might pose no such issues?

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[887sMtreme]

887sMtreme,
Sure, well observed. Would Pam Paugh have run the risk of felony forensic crime-scene charges if she thought the case was JDI?

But helping her sister evade legal scrutiny might pose no such issues?

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Thanks. Am I misremembering, or didn’t one of the Paughs let something slip about a history of abuse (of Patsy) in their birth family? That can result in intense sibling bonds.

 

[UKGuy]

Thanks. Am I misremembering, or didn’t one of the Paughs let something slip about a history of abuse (of Patsy) in their birth family? That can result in intense sibling bonds.

887sMtreme,
Nothing concrete, as far as I am aware, regarding a history of abuse.

Other than references to Pam Paugh herself and Patsy being groomed for the pageant circus, which in itself might constitute child neglect?

Nedra was the matriarch who ran the show, including JonBenet, with Pamela Paugh an avid contributer to their Pageant appearances in various states.

I'm guessing, despite her degree education, Patsy thought pageants were a route to success for young girls?

From memory Pam Paugh never married, this led to speculation.

 

[UKGuy]

Duplicate Post

 

[887sMtreme]

887sMtreme,
Nothing concrete, as far as I am aware, regarding a history of abuse.

Other than references to Pam Paugh herself and Patsy being groomed for the pageant circus, which in itself might constitute child neglect?

Nedra was the matriarch who ran the show, including JonBenet, with Pamela Paugh an avid contributer to their Pageant appearances in various states.

I'm guessing, despite her degree education, Patsy thought pageants were a route to success for young girls?

From memory Pam Paugh never married, this led to speculation.

When Patsy was competing, pageants were still one path to professional success in certain fields, especially media, but that was rapidly changing. Pretty soon thereafter, being a “pageant winner” was a suggestion of vapidity and narcissism in those very same fields. The notion that Miss America was “a scholarship program” was openly ridiculed. N’importe.

I wish I could remember where I encountered that hint of abuse. Maybe a family friend with nothing kind to say about Nedra?

This is all just fiddling with footnotes, I suppose. Absent some deathbed revelations years down the road, this case was so hopelessly bungled that we’ll never know the truth of it.

 

[UKGuy]

When Patsy was competing, pageants were still one path to professional success in certain fields, especially media, but that was rapidly changing. Pretty soon thereafter, being a “pageant winner” was a suggestion of vapidity and narcissism in those very same fields. The notion that Miss America was “a scholarship program” was openly ridiculed. N’importe.

I wish I could remember where I encountered that hint of abuse. Maybe a family friend with nothing kind to say about Nedra?

This is all just fiddling with footnotes, I suppose. Absent some deathbed revelations years down the road, this case was so hopelessly bungled that we’ll never know the truth of it.

887sMtreme,
Some have pointed to Nedra, as she is alleged to have made remarks about Burke Ramsey as a very young boy in the presence of Patsy and Pamela.

Not worth repeating as it is third party and might just be an internet meme, with the remarks being sexual in nature.

The inference was if Nedra could talk openly in such a manner was this not a hint of loose morals, etc?

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[887sMtreme]

Snipped for focus

The inference was if Nedra could talk openly in such a manner was this not a hint of loose morals, etc?

Ah well. I’ve always been of a mind that if a person is always noisily obsessed with gracious good manners, rather than letting them flow naturally from their everyday behavior, they’re faking it. Count the silver before showing them to their car. That’s my way of saying Nedra might not have been a role model that Public Patsy would have chosen, but it’s what she got.

 

[proust20]

PP most likely removed evidence during her sweep. The duct tape and the cord are very important to the case. True to form, LE had not discovered anything regarding these items before PP's sweep.

Of course, JB wasn't redressed after rigor mortis. Wouldn't that show up in the autopsy? Still, I don't understand the redressing, especially as it was so inept. There is the possibility that the wrong garments are meant to send a message; but, I've no idea what that could be. Anyway, how could the redressing be consistent with the R's IDI theories? I can get why clothes that had been contaminated during the crime had to be discarded. However, size 12s, BR's long johns and a sequined top as their replacement is rather incongruent. It is difficult to see PR dressing her little Miss America so outlandishly.

The R's return home on the 25th at 10PM or so. I believe that the pineapple was shown to have been eaten around midnight, or shortly thereafter. The latest that the RN could have been started would have been around 5:20 AM? (Assuming that the RN was written on the night of the murder.) Giving six hours as a time frame is generous.

But the timeline, the order of events is vague. There is the double means of lethality inflicted upon JB. Dr. Wecht said that there was about an hour between the blow to the head and the strangulation. Which means of death was dealt first is up for debate. Explaining the gap between them is problematic. Was the same person responsible for both? Or were there two perpetrators? Or three? There is also the amount of time for the sexual assault to have occurred. All forms of assault do not leave physical evidence. There is no way of knowing what happened to JB before her death, nor how long her ordeal.

IMO the RN was written so that the 911 call could be made. But when was the RN written? Before, after, or during the staging? What has always struck me is how unrelated the scene in the WC is to the RN. Perhaps the author was not aware of what the WC scene had evolved into when writing? Nothing in the WC indicates a kidnapping gone wrong. The RN points slyly to people whom the Rs knew. Yet, nothing in the WC provides a link to someone whom they knew. This all has an ad hoc quality, that suggests that the events of that night were compressed, without a lot of time to think things through. A neighbor may have heard a child's scream at 2 AM. That would accelerate the events timeline. The RN alone takes at least 25 min.
In a BDI scenario, there is a certain amount of time before one or both of his parents learn of his actions. This could explain the time between the blow to the head and the strangulation. It is at this point that motivation, or its apparent lack, enters the picture.

PR's physical entanglement in the ligature is damning evidence. Had she ever offered an explanation? Was she ever confronted with this fact? One wonders what the Grand Jury thought of this, if they, in fact, were presented with it.

 

[Rubyslippers83]

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[Rubyslippers83]

When Patsy was competing, pageants were still one path to professional success in certain fields, especially media, but that was rapidly changing. Pretty soon thereafter, being a “pageant winner” was a suggestion of vapidity and narcissism in those very same fields. The notion that Miss America was “a scholarship program” was openly ridiculed. N’importe.

I wish I could remember where I encountered that hint of abuse. Maybe a family friend with nothing kind to say about Nedra?

This is all just fiddling with footnotes, I suppose. Absent some deathbed revelations years down the road, this case was so hopelessly bungled that we’ll never know the truth of it.

I feel as though P had been using JB to try to accomplish the fame she had wanted for herself. It seems as though P was involved but think things went down in a way that was unexpected. What if P met someone ie. a casting agent, director, etc. who either paid P or claimed they could make JB famous, but they wanted to ‘be with her’ as part of that agreement. Could P have possibly drugged JB even with a Benadryl the pineapple acid distorting stomach evidence in some way, they took her into the basement where the man proceeded but then JB woke up panicked, P came see what what happening, he threatens her so he has her write a ransom note plan recklessly what to do he goes, and P is in shock back upstairs just laying awake in her clothing from the night before waiting for the sun so she can release her emotions.

 

[Me66]

Or maybe not. So many holes in that theory. IF PR wanted to pimp out JBR, she could have taken her anywhere, anytime - a hotel room, the "customer's house etc. Why would a man be brought into the family home on Christmas night when BR & JR are there and could wake up at any moment, and why on earth would the deed be done in the cold wine cellar? And then the man dictates a ransom note and vanishes with no trace left behind, leaving PR to sort everything out?

 

[DavidV]

Can artificial intelligence give an answer to who wrote the ransom note? If you put hundreds or thousands written samples of different persons in the system and you you let it compare them to the ransom note, I think we all know who would be on top of the most similarities, right?

 

[DavidV]

I mean, you can't fool A.I. If it shows that Patsy wrote the note, byebye intruder theory. Then they would have a case again, and interrogate John and Burke.

 

[UKGuy]

Can artificial intelligence give an answer to who wrote the ransom note? If you put hundreds or thousands written samples of different persons in the system and you you let it compare them to the ransom note, I think we all know who would be on top of the most similarities, right?

DavidV,,
It can give an answer but I reckon the answer might be less accurate than any human answer.

The reason for this is that AI depends on real samples where the samples vary with the population.

Yet the samples likely to be fed into the AI might be from some subset of the population, e.g. convicted prisoners?

Most AI particulary those checking photographs are biased first by the initial input selected by those setting it up, then by the users, this usually results in any non-white subjects being flagged up as questionable.

A very old example of this was a USA Election Poll where they phoned around for voting preferences and then declared the winner in their newspaper.

But they got it wrong since they only contacted middle and upper class folks who could afford phones and not the majority who did not have a phoneline installed.

So do you only select people used the same writing system as Patsy or do you randomize the input, e.g. everyone in Boulder?

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[DavidV]

DavidV,,
It can give an answer but I reckon the answer might be less accurate than any human answer.

The reason for this is that AI depends on real samples where the samples vary with the population.

Yet the samples likely to be fed into the AI might be from some subset of the population, e.g. convicted prisoners?

Most AI particulary those checking photographs are biased first by the initial input selected by those setting it up, then by the users, this usually results in any non-white subjects being flagged up as questionable.

A very old example of this was a USA Election Poll where they phoned around for voting preferences and then declared the winner in their newspaper.

But they got it wrong since they only contacted middle and upper class folks who could afford phones and not the majority who did not have a phoneline installed.

So do you only select people used the same writing system as Patsy or do you randomize the input, e.g. everyone in Boulder?

.

Thank you for your answer. Maybe you're right but I think it's worth a shot. Randomization could indeed be a problem, but it's up to the statisticians. I don't know anything about handwritings, but I think it's kind of unique. If the A.I. finds e.g. 80% similarities with Patsy's handwriting and the rest of subjects are far behind, that wouldn't be a coincidence.

 

[887sMtreme]

Out of curiosity, I looked around for information about the ransom note left in the case of the kidnapping of legendary pilot Charles A. Lindbergh, Jr’s infant son. Spoiler alert: the badly decomposed body was eventually found in the woods near the house.

There were a group of ransom notes, not just the first “nursery note” found in the child’s room. Below this paragraph is a link to photos of them, with trial transcripts in which you can read translations of the otherwise impenetrable handwriting. Interestingly, the nursery note begins “Dear Sir!” complete with exclamation point. Stories about these notes, including photos of them sometimes shown fanned out like playing cards as a group, were published in various places around the 25th anniversary of the kidnapping, though I couldn’t tell you under whose colophon; I just know I saw them. They might be in the book I mention next.

https://www.historictrialtranscripts.com/lindbergh-kidnapping-ransom-notes

Now then, John Ramsey was a pilot with military associations like Lindbergh’s and an apparent interest in books and movies about crime. It’s quite possible he read a book about the Lindbergh kidnapping published in 1993, with distribution delayed for some reason until 1995. It was a best-seller. You can link to it on Amazon here:

https://www.amazon.com/Lindbergh-Crime-Noel-Behn/dp/0871135442

Do you think this exposure might have influenced John at all in either dictating or accepting from his wife a bizarre two-and-a-half-page ransom note? The notes in the Lindbergh case might be the only ones he ever actually saw, after all, even though we often refer to mentions of ransom notes in movies the Ramsey’s probably watched.

In all my study of the Ramsey case, I have never heard anyone make reference to the Lindbergh kidnapping even though strange, rambling ransom notes were involved in it and, as it turned out, the child had been dead all along, not far from its bed — though outdoors, in the Lindbergh baby’s case.

Anything here, or am I just walking what’s left of my wits? (Apologies to Edward Albee)

 

[icedtea4me]

I vaguely remember there being a mention of an Anne Morrow Lindbergh book in DoI.

 

[Tadpole12]

DoI, index
Lindbergh kidnapping case • 371, 376
Lindbergh ransom note • 237

doi-l.htm