What will be the outcome of the Oscar Pistorius Trial?

Discussion in 'The Poll Forum! Public Welcome To Participate' started by Coldpizza, Oct 25, 2013.

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What do you think?

  1. Innocent

    6 vote(s)
    3.0%
  2. Guilty of premeditated murder

    44 vote(s)
    21.8%
  3. Guilty of murder

    88 vote(s)
    43.6%
  4. Guilty of culpable homicide

    34 vote(s)
    16.8%
  5. Guilty of grevious bodily harm

    4 vote(s)
    2.0%
  6. Guilty of gross negligence

    18 vote(s)
    8.9%
  7. Not sure and/or other...

    8 vote(s)
    4.0%
  1. Coldpizza

    Coldpizza WS Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Oscar Pistorius Indictment:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/161348107/Oscar-Pistorius-indictment


    Thread where members are discussing the case:

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205154"]Oscar Pistorius charged with murdering his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp #4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
     
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  3. Estelle

    Estelle Well-Known Member

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  4. Coldpizza

    Coldpizza WS Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Your welcome, and the voting options will always remain at the top.
     
  5. fruity

    fruity Active Member

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    I voted for culpable homicide but of course am hoping for murder. Knowing how corrupt the SA legal system can be I wouldn't be shocked if he's found innocent. I would be nicely surprised but shocked if they find him guilty of premeditated murder.
     
  6. Estelle

    Estelle Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the Prosecution that it is a case of premeditated murder as OP did not fire only one shot, he fired four! They have over 100 witnesses, seem to have done all they could do to prove this, he has a history of violence, etc.

    But there could be some surprises with what the Defence comes up with to minimise the sentence.
     
  7. Interested Bystander

    Interested Bystander Well-Known Member

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    I also voted for culpable homicide as IMO that is what the judge will hand down but, without doubt, I feel that it should be premeditated murder. I feel there is going to be a miscarriage of justice but sincerely hope not.
     
  8. Indy Anna

    Indy Anna Well-Known Member

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    IMO, a judgment of murder is most appropriate for the crime and is the most likely outcome. Murder differs from culpable homicide in that it involves criminal intent. But, murder does not involve planning to the extent of premeditated murder. The latter would be applicable if O.P. thought out beforehand the time and conditions under which he would kill Reeva. For instance, premeditated murder would apply if O.P. arranged for Reeva to arrive at his house at a specified time, hid behind the front door or at the top of the stairs, and then shot her as she walked inside.


    While I believe the evidence shows O.P. intended to kill Reeva, I think it also shows he likely did so in a moment of rage. The thought of killing Reeva did not enter his mind until seconds (or a few minutes, at the most) before he first pulled the trigger, IMO.
     
  9. Estelle

    Estelle Well-Known Member

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    What are the sentencing guidelines for premeditated murder?

    For premeditated murder, the mandatory sentence in South Africa is a life sentence, which in practice is 25 years unless someone can prove extraordinary circumstances.

    Extraordinary circumstances could include a combination of number of factors: for example, that it was a first offense, the age of the person and in Pistorius' case, his disability and the impact this could have had on his actions.

    However, Grant said if the court accepted the prosecution's case -- that Pistorius chased Steenkamp into the bathroom and "hunted" her down -- his defense team would be hard-pressed to convince the court that there should be any considerations that should override the repugnance that should be felt.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/22/world/africa/pistorius-legal-q-and-a/
     
  10. Estelle

    Estelle Well-Known Member

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    What happens if Pistorius is found not guilty of premeditated murder?

    If Pistorius faces trial for premeditated murder but is found not guilty, he would face a "competent verdict" or lesser charge of culpable homicide, which is based on negligence.

    Pistorius is not claiming self-defense; he is claiming to have been mistaken about his need for self-defense. He is denying that he intentionally unlawfully killed Steenkamp.

    Grant said the defense boiled down to Pistorius saying "I made a mistake."
    If the court were to rule that the mistake was unreasonable -- based on what an objective, ordinary South African would do in the circumstances of the accused -- he would be found guilty of culpable homicide.

    Grant said he would expect a court to probably conclude that it is unreasonable to fire at anybody through a closed door regardless of whether they were an intruder, because of the value of human life.

    "I'm expecting that if he beats the murder charge, he is in very grave jeopardy of being convicted of culpable homicide," he said.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/22/world/africa/pistorius-legal-q-and-a/
     
  11. Interested Bystander

    Interested Bystander Well-Known Member

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    I agree Estelle. From what we "know" I think it was premeditated in the sense that he had time to stop himself but didn't. I also agree with an earlier poster who thinks the shooting was carried out in a fit of rage. He murdered when he was "out of control" and this may be used in the DT's case. He was fully aware it was RS in the toilet cubicle BUT I do see his DT, who we know to be very competent, screwing up the trial with their explanations and excuses surrounding the event. We have seen how they managed to run rings around the PT at his bail hearing. One of OP's problems is his affidavit. This has locked him into a story with lots of "holes" in it. Hopefully the state's PT will be a decidedly more competent at the trial.
     
  12. Estelle

    Estelle Well-Known Member

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    IMO there is no crime of passion in SA, that is only in France. One bullet OK but not four through a closed door when it was not in his self-defence.
     
  13. Interested Bystander

    Interested Bystander Well-Known Member

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  14. Interested Bystander

    Interested Bystander Well-Known Member

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    As I have indicated on the main thread I think he is guilty of premeditated murder but this poll, I thought, was to indicate what we thought the judge's verdict might be. I think it may well be Culpable Homicide but against this is the weight of OP's affidavit in which he clearly states he thought it was an intruder. Unless he changes his plea, which I assume he can do if he feels the evidence is so strong that it his only option, is to state what really happened. If he does this I think the judge may well accept he killed whilst in a rage and out of control. There are, it seems, witnesses to a loud argument. It may well go in his favour if he were to admit there had been a dreadful argument. However, this too creates a problem if we find there definitely were two sets of shots. That drags me back to premeditated murder or insanity.
     
  15. Mrs G Norris

    Mrs G Norris #JeSuisUrsa

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    If they manage to prove there was a fight between the two of them (as I believe) then I still think he'll only get a light sentence .. I have no faith in the justice system there, or anywhere, when it comes to people of his status.

    Wouldn't Dominick Dunne have loved this one?
     
  16. Estelle

    Estelle Well-Known Member

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    Oscar Pistorius Shooting: Olympian Joked About Killing Intruder On Twitter

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/02/14/oscar-pistorius-shooting-tweet_n_2686897.html
     
  17. Estelle

    Estelle Well-Known Member

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    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_passion"]Crime of passion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    I therefore disagree that this was a crime of passion as it was NOT SUDDEN.

    The arguing was first heard much earlier in the evening. I cannot remember exactly when now but between 8 and 9pm IIRC. Then it escalated to just before midnight when security or police were called and the arrived around 1am. The arguing was then heard again from 2-3am. These are approximate times.

    So the arguing (which was loud enough for neighbours to hear) could have gone on for up to SEVEN HOURS. THIS IS NOT SUDDEN.

    It would only be sudden if OP came home and found RS in bed with someone else and the shot her on impulse. That is sudden rage.

    In the United States civil courts, a crime of passion is referred to as "TEMPORARY INSANITY".

    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_passion"]Crime of passion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
     
  18. Estelle

    Estelle Well-Known Member

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    Pistorius: Crime of passion not ruled out

    Please note that this article was on 10th June, 2013 before the indictment.

    BBM I think this article should read that the Defence will try to prove crime of passion NOT the State..

    IMO the evidence of SEVERAL earwitnesses regarding the arguing will not support the theory that this was a SUDDEN CRIME BASED ON IMPULSE.

    imo we still do not know for sure whether OP was on his stumps or not. There have been different opinions about that including one statement that it did not matter if he was or was not. It has relevance to show his apparent vulnerability to an intruder and shows that if he was not on his stumps he took time to put them on showing more premeditation. But he also took time to get his gun.

    That could be true but now OP has employed a US forensics team to try to support his claim that he was on his stumps so it is an important aspect of the case. The Prosecution eventually indicted OP on premeditation so maybe it was obvious to Botha before the bail hearing that OP was not wearing his stumps. IMO they had not been to bed that night so it is more likely OP did not have his stumps on. Also, what is the difference between his kneeling down to shoot while on his prosthetics and having his stumps on? A few centimetres perhaps.

    How can the Defence prove that the first shot hit her lower body and that she did not immediately fall down on the first shot?

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Pistorius-Crime-of-passion-not-ruled-out-20130610

    IMO if the Prosecution with all its over 100 witnesses has the evidence that we have been told they have, this was not a crime of passion. OP also failed to disclose the arguments they had that night in his affidavit. Why?
     
  19. Estelle

    Estelle Well-Known Member

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    It is 2nd November, 2013 today and 55% of Websleuths posters think that Pistorius is either Guilty of premeditated murder (16 31.37%) or Guilty of murder (12 23.53%) and ( 9 17.65%) think he is guilty of Guilty of culpable homicide making a total of 73% who think he should face a term in jail. Question is how long?
     
  20. Interested Bystander

    Interested Bystander Well-Known Member

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    Could I say again I, personally, don't think it was a crime of passion. I think he is a trigger happy, unbalanced, irresponsible individual (evidenced by his known arguments and behaviour).

    The following is purely hypothetical and would entail OP changing his plea. There could be a possibility, given that there seems to have been a very audible argument, that the judge may come down on the side of a charge which would get him a lesser sentence. However, I do not think that CoP (or whatever the court deems this type of murder) would be entertained unless he changes his plea.

    I have a nasty feeling that someone in OP's position will be treated differently as under SA law weak sentencing seems to be heavily weighted in favour of the wealthy.

    Premeditated Murder - 25 years
    Murder - 15 years
    Culpable Homicide - 5 years, out in 2 or even suspended
    Other ie CoP (unsure what the exact terminology would be) - No prison term, paying only a fine.
     
  21. Estelle

    Estelle Well-Known Member

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    I have understood since the beginning that evidence of a "very audible argument" that went on for hours and hours would come against OP rather than in his favour.

    I also say this because it appears that his Defence might have helped OP in writing his Affidavit, and if they had thought that mentioning the long loud argument would ave helped OP in any way, they would have suggested that he should include it.

    PISTORIUS INTENTIONALLY FAILS TO DISCLOSE THE ARGUING. HE MAKES IT SOUND AS IF IT WAS A QUIET EVENING OF DOMESTIC BLISS

    16.4 On the 13th of February 2013 Reeva would have gone out with her friends and I with my friends. Reeva then called me and asked that we rather spend the evening at home. I agreed and we were content to have a quiet dinner together at home. By about 22h00 on 13 February 2013 we were in our bedroom. She was doing her yoga exercises and I was in bed watching television. My prosthetic legs were off. We were deeply in love and I could not be happier. I know she felt the same way. She had given me a present for Valentine’s Day but asked me only to open it the next day.

    16.5 After Reeva finished her yoga exercises she got into bed and we both fell asleep.

    16.6 I am acutely aware of violent crime being committed by intruders entering homes with a view to commit crime, including violent crime. I have received death threats before. I have also been a victim of violence and of burglaries before. For that reason I kept my firearm, a 9 mm Parabellum, underneath my bed when I went to bed at night.

    16.7 During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains. I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom.

    16.8 I felt a sense of terror rushing over me. There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside. Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps.

    http://www.news.com.au/world/read-o...mp-was-shot-dead/story-fndir2ev-1226581625792

    BUT IT APPEARS THAT THIS WAS NOT THE CASE SO BECAUSE PISTORIUS IMO HAS PERJURED HIMSELF, IF I WAS THE JUDGE, I WOULD NOT TAKE MERCY ON HIM.
     

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