Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

who molested/abused JB?

  • JR

    Votes: 180 27.1%
  • BR

    Votes: 203 30.6%
  • JAR

    Votes: 28 4.2%
  • a close family friend

    Votes: 41 6.2%
  • a stranger/stalker a la JMK

    Votes: 20 3.0%
  • PR-it wasn't sexual abuse,it was corporal punishment

    Votes: 89 13.4%
  • she wasn't previously abused/molested

    Votes: 103 15.5%

  • Total voters
    664
Status
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BBM. That's possible. We know what busy beavers they were. Then again, the fear that they might dig up something might have been enough.

Not that I would ever want to appear to be defending AH. He is a coward. However, I do think that cowardice is the main reason the Ramsey's were treated the way they were. I absolutely think it is the reason no charges were ever brought.

IMO, there is no excuse for the way they were treated and what they were allowed to get away with, but part of that blame also lies with the BPD. I think there is a very good chance that had Patsy been interviewed immediately she would have confessed.

As for the failure to bring charges, I still see that as very problematic. You can't just go into court and say "we are sure there was no intruder so convict one of these people". You have to pick the person or persons.

Good luck with that. Even after all these years, we can't agree on that. No intruder? Absolutely. Which Ramsey? ........
 
Then again maybe Patsy wanted to have the finger pointed at him. Maybe thats why the suitcase was there and the contents. MOO
 
I believe IMO that JAR was the one molesting JB. He was going to the college was over at the house, had access to her... came home on the weekends JB usually went to dr at school on mondays(coincidence?) Was he at the party on the 23rd? If so I think he messed with her that night. Maybe thats why the 911 call she was scared people were downstairs couldnt hear her maybe? Maybe that is why the law was shussed away no one knew a call had been placed. I think patsy knew or was just getting in the know about him abusing her. And ok this may be farfetched so no mean comments lol. What if JAR got scared (if JB placed that 911call) that he was about to get ratted out. And maybe that was motive. Say he was there from the christmas party(cant remember if he had went back to atl. If he had decided to kill her then I would guess he would want to stay.. and maybe plan this out) (and tells john he will just fly to MI with them for the trip. So he stays and they do Christmas and his pictures are taken too) JB DID say he seen him Christmas day.So maybe he stayed put at the ramsey house while they went to whites party and thought of his plan to rid of JB (maybe he writes out the RN then if he can make it look like patsys HW. Family came home she was awake went up with patsy to change for bed. Shes hungry so they go down for a snack. Burke too. JAR waits in his room til he knows they are in bed(remember he can be up walking the halls and they wouldnt suspect him doing so like they would an intruder) so everyone is in bed and JA gets JB up and apologize s for the 23rd party(and the other times) and has a present for her in the basement. She goes with him(kids love presents) they get downstairs and he gets one of JR golf clubs and hits her from behind. Now not sure what would be next (time elapse from the head blow to garroteing) but maybe this is when he constructed the garrote, SA her, redressed her, grabbed too big panties not thinking) I believe she had on the barbie gown and she was sleeping with the blanket that night maybe??? Or knew it was in the dryer (snooping around and he woukd know it was her favorite) so he could have ran and gotten it out and after he was finished with her started setting up the staging. Maybe he was jealous of her(daddys girl gets everything she wants, etc. But maybe he was also jealous of patsy too. He did say she was too flashy. Maybe he thought he could pin this in her (if the truth it worked!!!) Not so sure but maybe someone heard somethimg(john) and realized what had happened. On another thread it was mentioned that maybe john called mike archuleta and flew JA back to atl since you didnt have to confirm private flights. So maybe just maybe patsy had nothing to do with anything (oh goodness cant believe I said that) but she was forced into covering for JA. Maybe thats why the lawyering up for his ex wife and him. Ok feel free to scold me lol. DeeDee249 you had posted an interesting scenario to this on another thread. MOO
 
I believe IMO that JAR was the one molesting JB. He was going to the college was over at the house, had access to her... came home on the weekends JB usually went to dr at school on mondays(coincidence?) Was he at the party on the 23rd? If so I think he messed with her that night. Maybe thats why the 911 call she was scared people were downstairs couldnt hear her maybe? Maybe that is why the law was shussed away no one knew a call had been placed. I think patsy knew or was just getting in the know about him abusing her. And ok this may be farfetched so no mean comments lol. What if JAR got scared (if JB placed that 911call) that he was about to get ratted out. And maybe that was motive. Say he was there from the christmas party(cant remember if he had went back to atl. If he had decided to kill her then I would guess he would want to stay.. and maybe plan this out) (and tells john he will just fly to MI with them for the trip. So he stays and they do Christmas and his pictures are taken too) JB DID say he seen him Christmas day.So maybe he stayed put at the ramsey house while they went to whites party and thought of his plan to rid of JB (maybe he writes out the RN then if he can make it look like patsys HW. Family came home she was awake went up with patsy to change for bed. Shes hungry so they go down for a snack. Burke too. JAR waits in his room til he knows they are in bed(remember he can be up walking the halls and they wouldnt suspect him doing so like they would an intruder) so everyone is in bed and JA gets JB up and apologize s for the 23rd party(and the other times) and has a present for her in the basement. She goes with him(kids love presents) they get downstairs and he gets one of JR golf clubs and hits her from behind. Now not sure what would be next (time elapse from the head blow to garroteing) but maybe this is when he constructed the garrote, SA her, redressed her, grabbed too big panties not thinking) I believe she had on the barbie gown and she was sleeping with the blanket that night maybe??? Or knew it was in the dryer (snooping around and he woukd know it was her favorite) so he could have ran and gotten it out and after he was finished with her started setting up the staging. Maybe he was jealous of her(daddys girl gets everything she wants, etc. But maybe he was also jealous of patsy too. He did say she was too flashy. Maybe he thought he could pin this in her (if the truth it worked!!!) Not so sure but maybe someone heard somethimg(john) and realized what had happened. On another thread it was mentioned that maybe john called mike archuleta and flew JA back to atl since you didnt have to confirm private flights. So maybe just maybe patsy had nothing to do with anything (oh goodness cant believe I said that) but she was forced into covering for JA. Maybe thats why the lawyering up for his ex wife and him. Ok feel free to scold me lol. DeeDee249 you had posted an interesting scenario to this on another thread. MOO

Just one clarification: according to what is public knowledge, JAR returned on Dec 19 for the Christmas holiday season with his family there. That was just after the 17th, when PR made the 3 calls to Buef after hours for something related to JB's health.

It has been verified by many that JAR has an airtight alibi. That said, if we could look at another Ramsey suspect besides my favorite, who most know is JR, I would have to look at JAR.

My reasons:
Even if JAR was in Atlanta, it has been proven that there was enough time time frame between the time he left the company of his mother, and the approximate time of JB's death according to forensics, for JAR to have made the trip by private plane to Boulder. Of the two friends who supplied JAR's alibi of gaming and going to the movie, Brad Millard was a licensed pilot. Brad Millard at a time later gave testimony to have once slept in JB's room during one of his former visits to the Ramsey house with JAR. That would have supplied reason for any forencsic evidence belonging to him that might have been found in JB's room. JAR's alibi included the discovery of Brad Millard having spent the night before JAR's flight with him in his room. When the 3 guys returned from the movie they had gone to, they picked up JAR's car from where it was left at Brad's house. Odd to me that Brad did not go into his own house at that time after the move, but instead he and JAR went to JAR's (Cindy's home) where he was the next morning when Melinda came to pick up JAR. Seems odd that JAR had to get up early to go on the flight towards MI, and it's OK to leave his sleeping pal behind in his room as a house guest. Easy for me to speculate that after the guys got together for gaming, they decided Brad could fly them into Boulder. Remember, it is 2 hours earlier in Atlanta than it is in Boulder. At 6 pm Atlanta time, 4 pm Boulder. JAR stated he had enough money to pay the ransom himself, so getting enough cash to supply fuel for a private plane accessible to Brad should not have been too difficult.

A quick thought, and strictly an opinion in response to your commentary, Elannia, if it WAS JR who wrote the note, and he had his two pals with him, the phrase in the note of "the two gentlemen watching over" sure could fit.

Why would Joe Barnhill, who liked the R's and vice versa, have a reason to concoct seeing JAR approach the Ramsey home in the late afternoon? Was it only after he had a chance to realize later how damning that might have been to JAR that he recanted, saying maybe he was mistaken regarding JAR? Fact is, JB saw someone fitting JAR's description, in his mind, approaching the Ramsey home. If we have to consider that was the "intruder", there is at least a basic description of the figure....someone very similar in stature and looks to JAR.

I also find think it was pretty gutsy for JAR to supposedly bring home his dirty "duvet" (on a college dorm bed?) to have it laundered. Was he going to do it, or did he think the housekeeper should take care of it. And, once you add the "Lady Godiva" version of Suess, as was shown in the posted screen capture, it's just too cohesive. That book would have been a good training manual to use to demonstrate to young children about the propriety of nudity and how it could be used in an OK situation....at least by a pedophile. All too hinky, IMO.

I'm digesting the whole scenario you laid out, but I already see how some of it could easily fit the crime if we didn't have to rule out JAR. In the meantime, JR is still my #1 suspect.
 
Just one clarification: according to what is public knowledge, JAR returned on Dec 19 for the Christmas holiday season with his family there. That was just after the 17th, when PR made the 3 calls to Buef after hours for something related to JB's health.

It has been verified by many that JAR has an airtight alibi. That said, if we could look at another Ramsey suspect besides my favorite, who most know is JR, I would have to look at JAR.

My reasons:
Even if JAR was in Atlanta, it has been proven that there was enough time time frame between the time he left the company of his mother, and the approximate time of JB's death according to forensics, for JAR to have made the trip by private plane to Boulder. Of the two friends who supplied JAR's alibi of gaming and going to the movie, Brad Millard was a licensed pilot. Brad Millard at a time later gave testimony to have once slept in JB's room during one of his former visits to the Ramsey house with JAR. That would have supplied reason for any forencsic evidence belonging to him that might have been found in JB's room. JAR's alibi included the discovery of Brad Millard having spent the night before JAR's flight with him in his room. When the 3 guys returned from the movie they had gone to, they picked up JAR's car from where it was left at Brad's house. Odd to me that Brad did not go into his own house at that time after the move, but instead he and JAR went to JAR's (Cindy's home) where he was the next morning when Melinda came to pick up JAR. Seems odd that JAR had to get up early to go on the flight towards MI, and it's OK to leave his sleeping pal behind in his room as a house guest. Easy for me to speculate that after the guys got together for gaming, they decided Brad could fly them into Boulder. Remember, it is 2 hours earlier in Atlanta than it is in Boulder. At 6 pm Atlanta time, 4 pm Boulder. JAR stated he had enough money to pay the ransom himself, so getting enough cash to supply fuel for a private plane accessible to Brad should not have been too difficult.

A quick thought, and strictly an opinion in response to your commentary, Elannia, if it WAS JR who wrote the note, and he had his two pals with him, the phrase in the note of "the two gentlemen watching over" sure could fit.

Why would Joe Barnhill, who liked the R's and vice versa, have a reason to concoct seeing JAR approach the Ramsey home in the late afternoon? Was it only after he had a chance to realize later how damning that might have been to JAR that he recanted, saying maybe he was mistaken regarding JAR? Fact is, JB saw someone fitting JAR's description, in his mind, approaching the Ramsey home. If we have to consider that was the "intruder", there is at least a basic description of the figure....someone very similar in stature and looks to JAR.

I also find think it was pretty gutsy for JAR to supposedly bring home his dirty "duvet" (on a college dorm bed?) to have it laundered. Was he going to do it, or did he think the housekeeper should take care of it. And, once you add the "Lady Godiva" version of Suess, as was shown in the posted screen capture, it's just too cohesive. That book would have been a good training manual to use to demonstrate to young children about the propriety of nudity and how it could be used in an OK situation....at least by a pedophile. All too hinky, IMO.

I'm digesting the whole scenario you laid out, but I already see how some of it could easily fit the crime if we didn't have to rule out JAR. In the meantime, JR is still my #1 suspect.

Thanks:) yes after posting I seen where he was back in atl with his mother. I just dont see patsy letting JB out of her sight for someone to be molesting her so it had to ba a family member... yes she may have been negligent as far as the house a mess and the soiling clothes and all but it was one of the 3 males in the house. MO JAR
 
Midwestmama, will you tell me your JR theory please?

Arriving at JDI took me several years, once I gave up on believing that an intruder killed JB. My own kids were grown and on their own, and as a mother, I just did not want to believe parents like the R's could do anything so heinous. My Dad (who passed away in 2010 at the age of 85) was an armchair sleuth most of his adult life, so caught me up in his enthusiasm. He said from day 1 it was in the family, with either the mother as a fading, ill (chemo brain) beauty queen jealous of the attention her daughter was getting in the pageant circle and maybe from too many high class male family friends, or it was the Dad, possibly in collusion with letting some close male friends use his daughter for sexual purposes. Funny thing over the years, my Dad could have written scripts for Columbo or Matlock....he rarely missed his call on "who done its", whether they were fictional stories or real true cases.

He never could get over the fact that JonBenet's killer could not be brought to justice. Each year that went by we discussed the case more, and as I began to read more and more of the books, I joined my Dad in the RDI camp.

It was when John Ramsey wrote and promoted "The Other Side of Suffering", my hinky meter went off. It's my opinion that JR is an evil man using Christianity as a cover to save his hide. His book contains many comments about his own life that translated aspects to me that support my feelings. I don't think that I could write my complete theory about JR being JB's killer without writing my own book about it, because it took me several years, many books, and lots of case history to lead me to believe JR possesses an evil, hidden warped sexual personality, cloaked by his successful high profile career achieved through control and narcissism practiced in both his personal and business life.

I believe JR had the same type of relationship with his daughter, Beth, that he had begun with JB. JB was a "stand in" for Beth, because of the natural detachment that occurred as Beth moved into her own adult life. I think as both she and JR got older, JR's emotional/mental health with regard to his sexual appetite had become almost surreal to him. When Beth died, it pushed JR into a state of reality that was nearly unbearable for him and in order to get through real life, he started a new hidden life of consoling himself with beautiful little JB.

Between what PR was teaching JB for pageants, and using her southern heritage as a guideline for grooming JB as a charming child, PR might have even thought it was wonderful that JR seemed to be so smitten with JB. I think, though, that in the months before JB's death, PR came to realize there was something happening with JB and perhaps more than one male Ramsey, and PR was trying to get a grip on what she would have to do to handle things. But then JB was killed.

I think JR pushed an encounter with JB that Christmas night farther than either of them could manage, and as a result, he struck her out of rage. Over the years, a few credible people close to JR were able to give examples of his displays of ill temperament. I respect Super Dave's theory of PR discovering JR and JB together and PR landing the head blow, which led to all the rest of it. But I can't imagine her then being able to keep from eventually ratting out JR, especially once her cancer returned as finally terminal. Yes, she might have wanted to protect Burke at all costs, but in mother bear mode over Burke, would she have not also needed to avenge her daughter's death?

Because of what is public about Burke's behaviors, I think it's possible that PR was trying to deal with something between BR and JB, and JR was aware of it as well. He might have even been seething underneath to realize his little beauty queen was being shared. And I find it completely possible that he could have killed JB, and if he did not do it all himself from there on out, including writing the note and failing to keep PR from calling the police, he managed to make PR believe that night that Burke had done it, and they would have to join forces in a cover-up for the sake of their son's future due to his current psychological state. I have no doubt JR would be able to manage both BR and PR in the future to keep both of them from ever "comparing notes". PR would leave it all up to JR and she would be content accepting that Burke's behaviors would be best left unchallenged by her in the hopes he wouldn't become any more ill than he already was. Any followup treatment would be best left for the professionals.

I waver from think JDI all by himself, to wondering if he enlisted PR's help by blaming Burke. But the part of the puzzle that keeps me looking more at JDI solo is that fact that JB's body was still in the house when the cops were called. The whole thing with the note, ransom, etc could have possibly gelled if JB's body could have been taken out of the home. If the call would not have been made, everything in the ransom note could have occured, with the call from the "kidnappers" coming on the morning of the 27th, providing plenty of time to get JB's body out of the house during the process. It would have only been a very short time after "delivery" of the ransom money before authorities would have been notified and one of the worst kidnapping/murders of American history would have been established. Here, I suggest if you want more insight into a JDI theory that is well laid out, check out: www.solvingjonbenet.com, and read over DocG's blogs. Even if you can't agree with it all totally, he has done a great job of showing why JR should have his day in the court room.

All MOO, and thanks for bearing with this long post.
 
Arriving at JDI took me several years, once I gave up on believing that an intruder killed JB. My own kids were grown and on their own, and as a mother, I just did not want to believe parents like the R's could do anything so heinous. My Dad (who passed away in 2010 at the age of 85) was an armchair sleuth most of his adult life, so caught me up in his enthusiasm. He said from day 1 it was in the family, with either the mother as a fading, ill (chemo brain) beauty queen jealous of the attention her daughter was getting in the pageant circle and maybe from too many high class male family friends, or it was the Dad, possibly in collusion with letting some close male friends use his daughter for sexual purposes. Funny thing over the years, my Dad could have written scripts for Columbo or Matlock....he rarely missed his call on "who done its", whether they were fictional stories or real true cases.

He never could get over the fact that JonBenet's killer could not be brought to justice. Each year that went by we discussed the case more, and as I began to read more and more of the books, I joined my Dad in the RDI camp.

It was when John Ramsey wrote and promoted "The Other Side of Suffering", my hinky meter went off. It's my opinion that JR is an evil man using Christianity as a cover to save his hide. His book contains many comments about his own life that translated aspects to me that support my feelings. I don't think that I could write my complete theory about JR being JB's killer without writing my own book about it, because it took me several years, many books, and lots of case history to lead me to believe JR possesses an evil, hidden warped sexual personality, cloaked by his successful high profile career achieved through control and narcissism practiced in both his personal and business life.

I believe JR had the same type of relationship with his daughter, Beth, that he had begun with JB. JB was a "stand in" for Beth, because of the natural detachment that occurred as Beth moved into her own adult life. I think as both she and JR got older, JR's emotional/mental health with regard to his sexual appetite had become almost surreal to him. When Beth died, it pushed JR into a state of reality that was nearly unbearable for him and in order to get through real life, he started a new hidden life of consoling himself with beautiful little JB.

Between what PR was teaching JB for pageants, and using her southern heritage as a guideline for grooming JB as a charming child, PR might have even thought it was wonderful that JR seemed to be so smitten with JB. I think, though, that in the months before JB's death, PR came to realize there was something happening with JB and perhaps more than one male Ramsey, and PR was trying to get a grip on what she would have to do to handle things. But then JB was killed.

I think JR pushed an encounter with JB that Christmas night farther than either of them could manage, and as a result, he struck her out of rage. Over the years, a few credible people close to JR were able to give examples of his displays of ill temperament. I respect Super Dave's theory of PR discovering JR and JB together and PR landing the head blow, which led to all the rest of it. But I can't imagine her then being able to keep from eventually ratting out JR, especially once her cancer returned as finally terminal. Yes, she might have wanted to protect Burke at all costs, but in mother bear mode over Burke, would she have not also needed to avenge her daughter's death?

Because of what is public about Burke's behaviors, I think it's possible that PR was trying to deal with something between BR and JB, and JR was aware of it as well. He might have even been seething underneath to realize his little beauty queen was being shared. And I find it completely possible that he could have killed JB, and if he did not do it all himself from there on out, including writing the note and failing to keep PR from calling the police, he managed to make PR believe that night that Burke had done it, and they would have to join forces in a cover-up for the sake of their son's future due to his current psychological state. I have no doubt JR would be able to manage both BR and PR in the future to keep both of them from ever "comparing notes". PR would leave it all up to JR and she would be content accepting that Burke's behaviors would be best left unchallenged by her in the hopes he wouldn't become any more ill than he already was. Any followup treatment would be best left for the professionals.

I waver from think JDI all by himself, to wondering if he enlisted PR's help by blaming Burke. But the part of the puzzle that keeps me looking more at JDI solo is that fact that JB's body was still in the house when the cops were called. The whole thing with the note, ransom, etc could have possibly gelled if JB's body could have been taken out of the home. If the call would not have been made, everything in the ransom note could have occured, with the call from the "kidnappers" coming on the morning of the 27th, providing plenty of time to get JB's body out of the house during the process. It would have only been a very short time after "delivery" of the ransom money before authorities would have been notified and one of the worst kidnapping/murders of American history would have been established. Here, I suggest if you want more insight into a JDI theory that is well laid out, check out: www.solvingjonbenet.com, and read over DocG's blogs. Even if you can't agree with it all totally, he has done a great job of showing why JR should have his day in the court room.

All MOO, and thanks for bearing with this long post.
Wow. Thank you so much :) ya know I am a complete RDI, I am just back and forth with which one. Like I said before in other posts, I dont know if patsy delivered that head blow, garroted her, sa her, etc. I mean there are mothers who do this I know but I just dont know if I see it with patsy. I think it was one of the males and patsy was beginning to realize it. She called dr beuf 3 times in one night(wonder why) was JB hurt bad by someone that night? I think if patsy wrote that note she was made to do it.
 
Wow. Thank you so much :) ya know I am a complete RDI, I am just back and forth with which one. Like I said before in other posts, I dont know if patsy delivered that head blow, garroted her, sa her, etc. I mean there are mothers who do this I know but I just dont know if I see it with patsy. I think it was one of the males and patsy was beginning to realize it. She called dr beuf 3 times in one night(wonder why) was JB hurt bad by someone that night? I think if patsy wrote that note she was made to do it.

The observation at JB's school that she had become more "clingy" to PR not long before her death leads me to believe JB was in no fear of anything that PR might have been thought to be doing to her. It makes me think the opposite....that JB wanted protection by her mother from something/someone.

The calls to Dr. Beuf on the 17th by Patsy must have been for something rather severe that JB was exhibiting, yet JB had been in the "Little Miss Christmas" pageant on the 17th, winning, performed "Rock around the Christmas Tree" for the classes in her elementary school on the 20th, on the 22 was in another pageant in the Southwest Plaza Mall, and attended the Ramsey Christmas party on the 23rd, all without anyone saying she "looked ill" in any way.

So what kind of illness hits so hard you are frantic to get ahold of the pediatrician, but is not apparent by recognizable symptoms to those in close proximity of her in days all around the 17th?
 
The observation at JB's school that she had become more "clingy" to PR not long before her death leads me to believe JB was in no fear of anything that PR might have been thought to be doing to her. It makes me think the opposite....that JB wanted protection by her mother from something/someone.

The calls to Dr. Beuf on the 17th by Patsy must have been for something rather severe that JB was exhibiting, yet JB had been in the "Little Miss Christmas" pageant on the 17th, winning, performed "Rock around the Christmas Tree" for the classes in her elementary school on the 20th, on the 22 was in another pageant in the Southwest Plaza Mall, and attended the Ramsey Christmas party on the 23rd, all without anyone saying she "looked ill" in any way.

So what kind of illness hits so hard you are frantic to get ahold of the pediatrician, but is not apparent by recognizable symptoms to those in close proximity of her in days all around the 17th?

Thanks. Yes I read that she was becoming more clingy with patsy and like you said if patsy was doing something to her she would distance herself from her. did the dr mention he had talked to patsy when she was trying to get ahold of him? And you are a JDI but I'd like to know your sequence of events for that night(if you dont mind to share:)
 
I was just watching an update on the David Cam case - not sure if people here are familiar with it, but there's so much overlap I feel like it was probably discussed. He is the man accused of killing his wife and children in collusion with some sort of accomplice but the whole scenario is weird. He was convicted twice despite a bunch of witnesses claiming he was at a basketball game during the murders, but there was some evidence he could have left and returned without being noticed. They later found out another guy was involved but can't quite establish the connection - David Cam has been acquitted, but it's controversial for many reasons. Anyway, the young daughter was shown to have evidence of sexual contact and it was implied maybe he had been molesting her and that led to the murders. I get the sense they mean it was both chronic and acute like in this case, and he claims no way was she being molested. Now the other guy's touch DNA has been found all over the crime scene, including in the child's underwear, but it was such a strange crime scene and what his motive would have been or what exactly happened is unclear. He claims he did nothing but give the gun and was framed. It's just interesting to see the same issues.

ETA: I think the touch DNA may have been in the wife's underwear, but it was all over all of the victims and he claims he wasn't involved. Strange.

Oh yes. That's THE touch DNA case right now. It is an odd case. Although I think the prosecution made many errors during the trials, I have to wonder why they kept going back to Camm - it cost money and time to try him three times. I learned my lesson long ago (the WM3 case as a matter of fact) to never trust one version of events in a murder case. This case sets off alarms for me.
 
To midwest mama... do you think patsy knew it was john or had any part of the staging, cover up? I remember LA visiting with her and she said something about she had been keeping some stuff hidden(something of that nature) and she pleaded for her to keep searching for JB killer. What do you think LA meant when she said she had information and something about putting it in the right hands?
 
To midwest mama... do you think patsy knew it was john or had any part of the staging, cover up? I remember LA visiting with her and she said something about she had been keeping some stuff hidden(something of that nature) and she pleaded for her to keep searching for JB killer. What do you think LA meant when she said she had information and something about putting it in the right hands?

I am the first to admit I am not locked in on PR's degree of involvement with JB's death, and my opinions range from her having full knowledge of everything that happened that night, to her learning about the complete details sometime later. But I am convinced JR is the main character and responsible for the activities of that night that led to her death, and for the complete diffusion of any resolve to the case. I don't think it's as simple as a case of family incest within the closed doors of the Ramsey home. I believe JB's death has ties to something that has had to be carefully and completely covered up through many participants over the years in order to keep a closed lid on a boiling pot.

IMO, Arndt is a pawn in this case. She was compromised very early by having to be left without backup as she requested it, and from then on, the R's kept her exactly where they wanted her, IMO. Nothing was handled by LE at the Ramsey house as it should have been from the time Officer French arrived. And I don't think that is a fluke.

There are a few key players in this case who are not offering any further information about this case, and I think it goes beyond fear of being sued by John Ramsey. MOO
 
I am the first to admit I am not locked in on PR's degree of involvement with JB's death, and my opinions range from her having full knowledge of everything that happened that night, to her learning about the complete details sometime later. But I am convinced JR is the main character and responsible for the activities of that night that led to her death, and for the complete diffusion of any resolve to the case. I don't think it's as simple as a case of family incest within the closed doors of the Ramsey home. I believe JB's death has ties to something that has had to be carefully and completely covered up through many participants over the years in order to keep a closed lid on a boiling pot.

IMO, Arndt is a pawn in this case. She was compromised very early by having to be left without backup as she requested it, and from then on, the R's kept her exactly where they wanted her, IMO. Nothing was handled by LE at the Ramsey house as it should have been from the time Officer French arrived. And I don't think that is a fluke.

There are a few key players in this case who are not offering any further information about this case, and I think it goes beyond fear of being sued by John Ramsey. MOO
So do you think when john said there was alot of people there at 3 in the morning maybe there really was?
 
I am the first to admit I am not locked in on PR's degree of involvement with JB's death, and my opinions range from her having full knowledge of everything that happened that night, to her learning about the complete details sometime later. But I am convinced JR is the main character and responsible for the activities of that night that led to her death, and for the complete diffusion of any resolve to the case. I don't think it's as simple as a case of family incest within the closed doors of the Ramsey home. I believe JB's death has ties to something that has had to be carefully and completely covered up through many participants over the years in order to keep a closed lid on a boiling pot.

IMO, Arndt is a pawn in this case. She was compromised very early by having to be left without backup as she requested it, and from then on, the R's kept her exactly where they wanted her, IMO. Nothing was handled by LE at the Ramsey house as it should have been from the time Officer French arrived. And I don't think that is a fluke.

There are a few key players in this case who are not offering any further information about this case, and I think it goes beyond fear of being sued by John Ramsey. MOO
Thanks. I'd say fear of what would happen if they were to talk. I can see JR comment about people there at 3:00 in the morning truthful. And the call records(LE should have gotten those)
 
So do you think when john said there was alot of people there at 3 in the morning maybe there really was?

No way we'll ever know for sure. I think JR is adept at wearing "masks", even verbally. Very little if what I've ever seen or heard him say seems fully truthful, MOO.
 
From the autopsy report:
"Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation.The smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contains epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen."

Aren't these findings (below) indicative of acute injury?
"vascular congestion"
"capillary congestion"
"a small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface"

Is abrasion = epithelial erosion, in this context?
 
None of the options in this poll are correct, although it is probable that JR molested/abused his daughter prior to the night of her murder. It's pretty much a certainty that he did, but I don't believe this is what this poll is trying to query. There should be another option for someone outside of the family but not an intruder. Not just one person either but many.
 
From the autopsy report:
"Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation.The smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contains epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen."

Aren't these findings (below) indicative of acute injury?
"vascular congestion"
"capillary congestion"
"a small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface"

Is abrasion = epithelial erosion, in this context?

Mama2JML,
Its difficult to tell if Coroner Meyer is being deliberately cryptic or technically precise. My interpretation of these phrases is:

"vascular congestion": The organ concerned is engorged with blood, i.e. a state of tumescence or swelling. I assume this is how Coroner Meyer arrived at the conclusion of Sexual Contact.

"capillary congestion": The capillaries are blocked. I'm not certain what the cause was here, others might offer some insight?

"a small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface": Certainly indicates prior bleeding, the source might be ambiguous.

Is abrasion = epithelial erosion, in this context?: I would assume the abrasion refers to direct contact with a foreign object which has broken the skin and caused bleeding, and the epithelial erosion likely refers to the removal of skin surrounding JonBenet's hymen.

Corner Meyer is not giving much away here is he, I reckon birefringent foreign material is technical jargon which allows an implicit redaction, but is important in sequencing any staging scenarios?

...

Have since listened to Wecht's interpretation and he states that the epithelial erosion refers to the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, i.e. evidence of chronic abuse?


.
 
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