Why didn't John Ramsey take the cord off of JonBenet's neck ?

[Toltec]

SAGsun,

It's just my opinion, of course, but I think John's carrying the body upstairs was a part of the plan to contaminate the crime scene as much as possible. He knew JonBenet was dead because she was in full rigor and putrefying (bad odor) and he carried her upstairs like a board. John and Patsy flinging themselves on the body, and inviting civilians over to further contaminate the crime scene, and the lie about the whereabouts of Burke during the 911 call, seemed to be a plan being executed by the Ramseys.

People will say that the guilty party would never volunteer to "find" the body. We know that is not the case....the man who murdered his daughter and her playmate "found" their bodies.

John knew that the police failed to discover JonBenet in the wine cellar so to put an end to this, he was relieved when given an opportunity to go downstairs and therefore "find" JonBenet.

BlueCrab is right when he says that JonBenet was discovered earlier than 1pm, in fact it was the early morning hours that John found JonBenet downstairs. He screams when he finds her, rushes upstairs to find a blanket and wraps her in it before Patsy sees JonBenet.

"I scream as he screams when he comes up from the basement."

I also believe Burke was up and about and his voice is heard in the 911 tape...

"Where did you find her body?"

 

[Nehemiah]

Possibly, John found her body that morning, could not bear for Patsy to see JB in that posture and condition, and even though an IDI, John in his typical CEO take-charge attitude, restaged the scene for this reason. Maybe everything else was truly correct...an intruder came into their home just as they have said?

 

[Seeker]

You prove nothing. How would you know the cord was not tight at that time or anything about the swelling of her skin?

I don't have to prove anything and the percieved hostility in your first sentance is unwarranted. Prove it to yourself. Try reading the autopsy report.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet1.html

If there were any marks on her wrists, or swelling they would still be there post mortem.

 

[capps]

Good point UKGuy. This theory, of course, would put the crime in the sexual monster category. In bonding scenes the girl is often on her back spread eagle on a bed with her hands tethered to the bedposts at the head of the bed and her ankles tethered to the bedposts at the foot of the bed. The helpless position of the girl would allow the rapist to do whatever pleases him.

However, in JonBenet's case the hands were bound together at the wrists and there was apparently no tethering at the ankles, which would have allowed her almost free reign to twist and turn to avoid the rapist's sexual advances.

Thus, I'm more of the opinion that JonBenet's head and upper torso could have been propped up against the headboard by tethering the bound arms to the headboard or an overhead object while the rest of the body, from the waist down, remained horizontal on the bed. It would have been a classic position for erotic asphyxiation to have taken place which, IMO, did occur in this case. The bed being used would have been in one of the second floor bedrooms.

In this theory, after accidentally asphyxiating JonBenet, or torturing her with a stun gun and purposely asphyxiating her, the perp would have likely obscenely posed the dead body, probably with the stick tied on the end of the 17" long cord from the neck ligature inserted into the vagina. This would replicate what terrorists are expected to do. John Ramsey, upon discovering the grotesque scene very early in the morning, would have cut her down immediately, altered the crime scene, relocated the body to the basement, and established a plan to coverup what really happened.

BlueCrab

I barely have my head wrapped around the idea that BR was involved at all ... but now your claiming the possible theory is that JonBenet may have been tortured with a stun gun,choked to death by means of EA,then obsenely posed to replicate something that terrorists might do.All this is done by 2 possibly 3 individuals,two of which may be under the age of 10,in one of the beds on the second floor.With not a peep from JonBenet, (of course there is that scream that never was).All this being done,while the parents are asleep,one floor up.Once the parents do realize what's going on,as grief stricken as they are....it's time for the big cover up,bash on the head,ransom note,etc.,because they do not want to be embarrassed.And as far as we can see there is no motive.

It's getting way too outlandish.

 

[BlueCrab]

I barely have my head wrapped around the idea that BR was involved at all ... but now your claiming the possible theory is that JonBenet may have been tortured with a stun gun,choked to death by means of EA,then obsenely posed to replicate something that terrorists might do.All this is done by 2 possibly 3 individuals,two of which may be under the age of 10,in one of the beds on the second floor.With not a peep from JonBenet, (of course there is that scream that never was).All this being done,while the parents are asleep,one floor up.Once the parents do realize what's going on,as grief stricken as they are....it's time for the big cover up,bash on the head,ransom note,etc.,because they do not want to be embarrassed.And as far as we can see there is no motive.

It's getting way too outlandish.

capps,

You don't know what happened and I don't know what happened. But we do know certain facts, and to not be able to state these facts in various theories due to political correctness would be an injustice to JonBenet. For instance:

o It's a fact that JonBenet was killed by someone, or is that fact too outlandish to state?

o It's a fact that JonBenet had a ligature pulled so tight around her neck by someone that it was buried deep into her skin, or is that fact too outlandish to state?

o It's a fact that JonBenet was bashed in the head so hard by someone that her skull was split in two, or is that fact too outlandish to state?

o It's a fact that experts verified the marks on JonBenet are consistent with stun gun injuries, indicating that someone had likely tortured her, or is that fact too outlandish to state?

o It's a fact that experts verified that JonBenet had injuries to the vagina that were consistent with someone inflicting sexual abuse, or is that fact too outlandish to state?

o It's a fact that a cord device was wrapped around JonBenet's neck that was designed in such a way as to be consistent with someone performing erotic asphyxiation on her, a masturbation technique, or is that fact too outlandish to state?

o It's a fact the Ramseys have consistently lied, and obfuscated the answers to plain questions, and are clearly engaged in a coverup to protect someone, or is that fact too outlandish to state?

BlueCrab

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

o It's a fact that a cord device was wrapped around JonBenet's neck that was designed in such a way as to be consistent with someone performing erotic asphyxiation on her, a masturbation technique, or is that fact too outlandish to state?

o It's a fact the Ramseys have consistently lied, and obfuscated the answers to plain questions, and are clearly engaged in a coverup to protect someone, or is that fact too outlandish to state?

BlueCrab

BC,


It's not a fact that the garrote was "designed in such a way..." It was more likely used in the same way it has been used throughout history, as a quiet control and kill device.

It's also not a fact that the Ramseys have consistently lied. Providing handwriting samples is truth. Agreeing to be questioned while being treated as possible suspects is truth. Searching the house at BPD request is truth.

 

[narlacat]

The Ramsey's have indeed lied. In between lying, they cant remember anything.
They lied about Burke owning hi tec shoes.
They lied about Burke's whereabouts the morning of the 26th.
They did not give LE formal interviews for months after JonBenet's death and they tried to leave the state within hours, so I dont think they agreed as readily as you would have us believe.

 

[SAGsun]

The Ramsey's have indeed lied. In between lying, they cant remember anything.
They lied about Burke owning hi tec shoes.
They lied about Burke's whereabouts the morning of the 26th.
They did not give LE formal interviews for months after JonBenet's death and they tried to leave the state within hours, so I dont think they agreed as readily as you would have us believe.

I know y'all have discussed this ad nauseum, but I just got here.So.......

John Ramsey re-searching the house, and finding JonBenet seems very odd to me.

Why did they not search every single room of the house upon calling the police? I can understand calling the police, then searching, but only one parent could call. Not knowing how long she had been missing, it could be assumed that perhaps they were still in the house or yard.

Why would John commence a second search after the house had been searched? Why presume you would find something then, if hours had passed since finding the note? It's as though he may have been a bit put out with her not being found, and had to go do it himself.

 

[BlueCrab]

John Ramsey re-searching the house, and finding JonBenet seems very odd to me.

Why did they not search every single room of the house upon calling the police?

SAGsun,

IMO John Ramsey did indeed search the entire house hours before they called 911 at 5:52 AM -- AND THEY FOUND JONBENET.

John says he never searched the basement looking for his missing daughter early that morning, but that's an obvious lie just on the face of it. What father would not search the basement looking for his missing six-year-old child?

Slips of the tongue by both Patsy and by John during police interviews have indicated the basement was searched by John prior to the 911 call at 5:52 AM (moving the chair from in front of the train room door; and them both screaming as John "came up from the basement").

IMO JonBenet was found by John at about 3 or 4 AM, and the staging and coverup was initiated at that time. A wee-hour phone call to powerful attorney Mike Bynum started things rolling with respect to the coverup. The phone records aren't missing for nothing.

BlueCrab

 

[Charlie]

The phone records aren't missing for nothing.

BlueCrab

BC, did LE get a warrant to obtain the phone records? Whats the story behind that and them missing???

 

[capps]

capps,

You don't know what happened and I don't know what happened. But we do know certain facts, and to not be able to state these facts in various theories due to political correctness would be an injustice to JonBenet. For instance:

o It's a fact that JonBenet was killed by someone, or is that fact too outlandish to state?

o It's a fact that JonBenet had a ligature pulled so tight around her neck by someone that it was buried deep into her skin, or is that fact too outlandish to state?

o It's a fact that JonBenet was bashed in the head so hard by someone that her skull was split in two, or is that fact too outlandish to state?

o It's a fact that experts verified the marks on JonBenet are consistent with stun gun injuries, indicating that someone had likely tortured her, or is that fact too outlandish to state?

o It's a fact that experts verified that JonBenet had injuries to the vagina that were consistent with someone inflicting sexual abuse, or is that fact too outlandish to state?

o It's a fact that a cord device was wrapped around JonBenet's neck that was designed in such a way as to be consistent with someone performing erotic asphyxiation on her, a masturbation technique, or is that fact too outlandish to state?

o It's a fact the Ramseys have consistently lied, and obfuscated the answers to plain questions, and are clearly engaged in a coverup to protect someone, or is that fact too outlandish to state?

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

Most of what you stated is correct.
The outlandish part IMO,is all the above was committed by JonBenet's 9 yr old brother,who by all accounts got along well with JB,and may have included,her step brother, who by all accounts got along well with JonBenet.

I don't think it's outlandish to think all of the above,was committed by some one who knows the family well,and got access to the house keys,and did all the terrible deeds.

I don't think the Ramsey's staged a cover up.They are being evasive (not lying),because of bad lawyering and putting too much trust into their lawyers, who had drummed into the Ramsey's heads that the LE will twist every thing they say,to make them look guilty.LE threatening to hold back JonBenet's body for burial didn't help.

 

[narlacat]

BlueCrab,

Most of what you stated is correct.
The outlandish part IMO,is all the above was committed by JonBenet's 9 yr old brother,who by all accounts got along well with JB,and may have included,her step brother, who by all accounts got along well with JonBenet.

I don't think it's outlandish to think all of the above,was committed by some one who knows the family well,and got access to the house keys,and did all the terrible deeds.

I don't think the Ramsey's staged a cover up.They are being evasive (not lying),because of bad lawyering and putting too much trust into their lawyers, who had drummed into the Ramsey's heads that the LE will twist every thing they say,to make them look guilty.LE threatening to hold back JonBenet's body for burial didn't help.

Well, thats just not true that by all accounts Burke got along well with JonBenet, according to LHP he was jealous of her..."everyone oohing and ahhing over her, because she's so perfect". She had to get taken to the hospital because he hit her with a golf club and if it warranted Patsy thinking it might need plastic surgery, it must have been more than a tap.
I have read very little about JAR, so I dont know if he got along well with JonBenet or not. I have read he thought Patsy was too showy...
And I have to say, the Ramsey's have been more than evasive, they have LIED...and more than once.

 

[tipper]

Well, thats just not true that by all accounts Burke got along well with JonBenet, according to LHP he was jealous of her..."everyone oohing and ahhing over her, because she's so perfect". She had to get taken to the hospital because he hit her with a golf club and if it warranted Patsy thinking it might need plastic surgery, it must have been more than a tap.
I have read very little about JAR, so I dont know if he got along well with JonBenet or not. I have read he thought Patsy was too showy...
And I have to say, the Ramsey's have been more than evasive, they have LIED...and more than once.

According to LHP Patsy never had to give any handwriting samples either.

The golf club accident was apparently just that. An accident. No one, except Patsy, thought she should see a plastic surgeon

JAR didn't say she was "too showy." He said she was "showy." There is a difference. I may have a friend I consider to be flamboyant. That doesn't mean I consider her to be too flamboyant.

 

[UKGuy]

In this theory, after accidentally asphyxiating JonBenet, or torturing her with a stun gun and purposely asphyxiating her, the perp would have likely obscenely posed the dead body, probably with the stick tied on the end of the 17" long cord from the neck ligature inserted into the vagina. This would replicate what terrorists are expected to do. John Ramsey, upon discovering the grotesque scene very early in the morning, would have cut her down immediately, altered the crime scene, relocated the body to the basement, and established a plan to coverup what really happened.



BlueCrab

BlueCrab,


Thanks for your remarks. Well I assume most of the IDI and the Lou Smit protagonists already think it is in the Sexual Monster category.


I was not thinking along the lines of a bondage scenario, but more for an explanation as to why her arms should be above her head. A conventional scenario would have her arms behind her back, tied in front or at her side.


If her arms above her head predate her death then this may have some signifigance beyond the obvious, similar to the pineapple and underwear evidence ?


So applying Occam's principle, originally I considered that JonBenet's arms may have adopted that position as a psychological response to a sexual assault, this is not uncommon in victims.


If she had screamed or resisted her assailant may have placed a pillow over her face and suffocated her. Or she may have been lying face down onto the bed. Thus leaving her arms outstretched.


So although I used the word "outstretched" I had thought of her arms parallel above her head, either open or closed, tethered but possibly not tied in our sense, since victim restraint may have been implicitly understood as part of a game or prior sexual abuse.


The theory you outline above is consistent and possibly one that could be carried out by an experienced predatory sexual offender. The ritual asphyxiation, head trauma, stun gun torture, sexual assault, and probable posing are not the hallmarks of a neophyte. This profile may indicate an age range from late teens through to mid Thirties.


For those that discount the use of a stun gun, the marks still need to be explained, however applied, JonBenet would still have experienced intense pain!



.

 

[Shelayne]

<<<snipped>>>
Why did they not search every single room of the house upon calling the police? I can understand calling the police, then searching, but only one parent could call. Not knowing how long she had been missing, it could be assumed that perhaps they were still in the house or yard.

Maybe because they didn't wake up to find her "missing". They woke up and found a RANSOM NOTE, which usually means that someone has TAKEN your child from the premises.

I guess I don't know why you would even search the house, when you are holding in your hand a ransom letter that says "we have your daughter." Why would one think that the note was incorrect? The note obviously was found IN the house, and your daughter isn't in her bed early in the morning. My guess is they ran around the house calling out to her--a cursory search, and she immediately called 911 in a panic. I would like to believe I would have my wits about me in that instance, but I'm guessing I would be hysterical.

I am pretty certain I would take the note at face value. The fact that Patsy didn't read the whole note before she reacted sounds normal to me. The note was 3 pages; she probably couldn't even focus on anything after "We have your daughter."

 

[narlacat]

Maybe because they didn't wake up to find her "missing". They woke up and found a RANSOM NOTE, which usually means that someone has TAKEN your child from the premises.

I guess I don't know why you would even search the house, when you are holding in your hand a ransom letter that says "we have your daughter." Why would one think that the note was incorrect? The note obviously was found IN the house, and your daughter isn't in her bed early in the morning. My guess is they ran around the house calling out to her--a cursory search, and she immediately called 911 in a panic. I would like to believe I would have my wits about me in that instance, but I'm guessing I would be hysterical.

I am pretty certain I would take the note at face value. The fact that Patsy didn't read the whole note before she reacted sounds normal to me. The note was 3 pages; she probably couldn't even focus on anything after "We have your daughter."

Well, if that had of been my child that was missing....and regardless of whether or not there was a RN saying that someone had taken her....I would still have checked the entire house and yard for any sign of my child.

 

[Toltec]

According to LHP Patsy never had to give any handwriting samples either.

The golf club accident was apparently just that. An accident. No one, except Patsy, thought she should see a plastic surgeon

JAR didn't say she was "too showy." He said she was "showy." There is a difference. I may have a friend I consider to be flamboyant. That doesn't mean I consider her to be too flamboyant.

Tipper....Burke hit JonBenet in the face AND her leg! I can understand one accidental swing...but TWO???

JAR called his step-mother "FLASHY".

 

[Shelayne]

Tipper....Burke hit JonBenet in the face AND her leg! I can understand one accidental swing...but TWO???

Ouch! Two? Yes, that sounds quite purposeful, but how old was Burke when this happened?

JAR called his step-mother "FLASHY".

Well, that's not so bad. I have an aunt that is terribly flashy, but I love her dearly!

 

[tipper]

Tipper....Burke hit JonBenet in the face AND her leg! I can understand one accidental swing...but TWO???

JAR called his step-mother "FLASHY".

As I recall he accidently hit her in the cheek. In 1994? I will have to check.

You're right he did say Flashy but my point is still the same.

The face AND leg claim was made last year but the poster never backed up his/her claim.

 

[Nehemiah]

As I recall he accidently hit her in the cheek. In 1994? I will have to check.

in 1993