Identified! WI - Madison, WhtMale 18-35, 745UMWI, in chimney, fem clothing, German iron cross medallion, Sep'89 Ronnie Joe Kirk

[LucyOso]

Bump

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

Coming back to this thread with a couple of new hypotheses and area updates.

First off someone from Reddit actually reached out to me a few months ago and asked if my dad or uncle could have been this UID based off yearbooks. If you are searching yearbooks, The W brothers who went to West in the mid 80s are very much alive even though their photos were missing from multiple yearbooks - they were both in college out of state at the time this UID was found. Please check LinkedIn and other sites without using graduation year before contacting relatives through Ancestry even if the name is common. Some people are just very private and don't use Facebook or Instagram for a variety of reasons.

I've also been able to rule out ~35 guys that went to West and JMM during the 1982-1989 time frame through my dad and some of his friends over the last six months. There is still one who is possibly unaccounted for in that time frame, but my dad's friend said it's possible he moved to Israel and his social media could be entirely in Hebrew and harder to find through normal search engines. I'm in the process of finding family friends who would have access to Eastside and LaFollette yearbooks from that time range as well as the surrounding area.

If this is something you have access to within that time frame, the rule out process I've been using has been:
(1) Are they easily findable on social media?
(2) If they are not easily findable, is there some sort of newspaper article or friend that does have social media that can place them as being alive past 1990?
(3) Checking Ancestry to see if there are marriages/children/other records that place them as being alive past 1990
(4) Checking WI circuit court files - this is my absolute last resort but has actually been able to verify that 2 rule outs are alive, just in prison.

Secondly there is a new building on the site of Good N' Loud and it houses a trans healthcare center. I am not sure if they have any info on this UID but I will see if I can get a flyer or something up once COVID protocols are looser in Dane County.

I also want to bring in the hypothesis of like a lake party or lake user being our UID. My uncle and his friends were known for throwing parties in high school in the Lake Mendota neighborhood near where this UID was found (across University near Spring Harbor Park and in Shorewood Hills) and a lot of times there would be kids that heard about said parties from as far away as Deerfield or Marshall. Additionally it is very easy to trespass on a lot of these lakefront properties even now, especially if they are on the harbor. Living in this general area I've seen lots of high school and college kids drive in from like an hour or so away, stay til midnight or so on the beach at either Spring Harbor or McKenna and go home late at night drunk/buzzed. That being said, I'm going to check NAMUS and Ancestry again to see if there's anything in a further out radius that would make sense.

 

[ntt1]

Now a DNA Doe Project case.

 

[victoriarobinson642]

Glad to hear it!

 

[MadMcGoo]

Me too! So very glad.

 

[bombardier]

Here's the link if anyone wants to take a look. It is still a pending case (DNA has not finished sequencing yet)
Dane Co Chimney Doe 1989 - DNA Doe Project Cases

 

[breachtones]

Honestly, of all the DNA Doe Projects this is the one I want solved the most.
I compiled a bunch of newspaper clippings and such, you may find some useful or interesting information in there, the Westgate Mall anecdote is interesting to me. Dane County Doe newspaper clippings Sep-Oct 1989

Also, here is an imgur album with images of the victim's clothing and jewelry, plus some newspaper clippings. September 15, 1989 newspapers and additional images of Dane County Doe's clothing and items.

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

Honestly, of all the DNA Doe Projects this is the one I want solved the most.
I compiled a bunch of newspaper clippings and such, you may find some useful or interesting information in there, the Westgate Mall anecdote is interesting to me. Dane County Doe newspaper clippings Sep-Oct 1989

Also, here is an imgur album with images of the victim's clothing and jewelry, plus some newspaper clippings. September 15, 1989 newspapers and additional images of Dane County Doe's clothing and items.

Thank you SO much for these. I've been so focused on Bear Brook Jane Doe that I've almost forgotten the work I've already done on this case - but this is a lot that I actually haven't seen! The Westgate anecdote could be something or could be nothing, just remember that Madison, even then, had a large LGBTQ population and Westgate itself is like a 10+ minute drive from the spot on U-Ave where this UID was found.

 

[breachtones]

Thank you SO much for these. I've been so focused on Bear Brook Jane Doe that I've almost forgotten the work I've already done on this case - but this is a lot that I actually haven't seen! The Westgate anecdote could be something or could be nothing, just remember that Madison, even then, had a large LGBTQ population and Westgate itself is like a 10+ minute drive from the spot on U-Ave where this UID was found.

No problem. This case has really resonated with me since I found out about it since the guy was possibly trans, and I have had my fair share of gender issues in the past. I really do think the DNA Doe Project can work their magic and identify him though.
Also yeah, could be any crossdressing guy at Westgate. But I wonder if certain articles of clothing he wore could be traced back to that Bormann's shop, or any other stores in the mall. Wish we had pictures of the paisley dress and oxford shirt publicly available.

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

No problem. This case has really resonated with me since I found out about it since the guy was possibly trans, and I have had my fair share of gender issues in the past. I really do think the DNA Doe Project can work their magic and identify him though.
Also yeah, could be any crossdressing guy at Westgate. But I wonder if certain articles of clothing he wore could be traced back to that Bormann's shop, or any other stores in the mall. Wish we had pictures of the paisley dress and oxford shirt publicly available.

As someone who has deep roots in Madison, I highly doubt this is going to be something that's going to be able to be done. Westgate was razed about two years ago and almost none of the local merchants that were around at the time are still in business, let alone know where their suppliers were getting things from. It's going to be a needle in a haystack kinda thing if we follow that lead.

 

[dotr]

Honestly, of all the DNA Doe Projects this is the one I want solved the most.
I compiled a bunch of newspaper clippings and such, you may find some useful or interesting information in there, the Westgate Mall anecdote is interesting to me. Dane County Doe newspaper clippings Sep-Oct 1989

Also, here is an imgur album with images of the victim's clothing and jewelry, plus some newspaper clippings. September 15, 1989 newspapers and additional images of Dane County Doe's clothing and items.

Welcome to Ws @breachtones, thanks for the link!

Victim's shoes in colour and from a different angle

Iron Cross in colour, albeit a slightly lower quality photo.

 

[breachtones]

I've updated the document with more info. There's also what looks like a higher quality picture of a reconstruction of this doe from the September 21 1990 Wisconsin State Journal paper, if someone with a premium account could clip that.

<modsnip: no source link>

 

[MadMcGoo]

21 Sep 1990, 1 - Wisconsin State Journal at Newspapers.com

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

I want to bring in a possible other theory that might be more relevant to the Bread Shop:
There are TONS of large Evangelical Christian ministries, including InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, that are headquartered in the Madison area. I don't know what their presence was like in the late 80's because I was born after this UID was found, but from what I understand there were quite a few churches in that area and currently there is a presence of missionaries from all over and different ministries in town.
What if we're completely wrong on the trans angle? What if this was some kind of good natured break in gone wrong? What if it was a bad-natured break in/hate crime? Thinking about the Bread Shop angle really makes me think we are looking in the wrong places.

 

[Curious_in_NC]

I want to bring in a possible other theory that might be more relevant to the Bread Shop:
There are TONS of large Evangelical Christian ministries, including InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, that are headquartered in the Madison area. I don't know what their presence was like in the late 80's because I was born after this UID was found, but from what I understand there were quite a few churches in that area and currently there is a presence of missionaries from all over and different ministries in town.
What if we're completely wrong on the trans angle? What if this was some kind of good natured break in gone wrong? What if it was a bad-natured break in/hate crime? Thinking about the Bread Shop angle really makes me think we are looking in the wrong places.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. You're suggesting a bad-natured break in to the Bread Shop? The 1980s were too early for gluten activisim. Although Atkins had published at least one book by then, the anti-bread Atkins Diet ketogenic movement didn't peak until 2003, when it nearly tanked Krispy Kreme stock (Atkins diet - Wikipedia). I'm not sure what a good-natured break in would be. Someone with a sweet tooth?

 

[UnlicensedPI]

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. You're suggesting a bad-natured break in to the Bread Shop? The 1980s were too early for gluten activisim. Although Atkins had published at least one book by then, the anti-bread Atkins Diet ketogenic movement didn't peak until 2003, when it nearly tanked Krispy Kreme stock (Atkins diet - Wikipedia). I'm not sure what a good-natured break in would be. Someone with a sweet tooth?

Not sure if you're joking and I'm missing it, but the Bread Shop was a Christian bookstore.

That being said, I like your sweet tooth theory better

 

[Curious_in_NC]

Not sure if you're joking and I'm missing it, but the Bread Shop was a Christian bookstore.

That being said, I like your sweet tooth theory better

I went back in the thread and you're right of course. I totally missed it that the Bread Shop was not an actual bread shop. I could have sworn someone had mentioned the smell of baking masking the body smell. That must have been on a different thread or forum.

But I still can't figure out what @doyoulovemepfg meant by a "good-natured break in", whether or not it was bread or books in there.

 

[UnlicensedPI]

I went back in the thread and you're right of course. I totally missed it that the Bread Shop was not an actual bread shop. I could have sworn someone had mentioned the smell of baking masking the body smell. That must have been on a different thread or forum.

But I still can't figure out what @doyoulovemepfg meant by a "good-natured break in", whether or not it was bread or books in there.

I didn't realize either, at first! It's very misleading for those of us who are unfamiliar with the store or the ins and outs of the case.

Maybe a good-natured break in would entail something like a (should-have-been) harmless prank? Moving the books around, turning them over/upside down, taking all the pens out of the store, leaving something to intentionally confuse whoever finds it...

 

[breachtones]

I didn't realize either, at first! It's very misleading for those of us who are unfamiliar with the store or the ins and outs of the case.

Maybe a good-natured break in would entail something like a (should-have-been) harmless prank? Moving the books around, turning them over/upside down, taking all the pens out of the store, leaving something to intentionally confuse whoever finds it...

Then the doors could be jimmied open by a butter knife instead of going in via the chimney. The robbery/break-in angle makes no sense to me. There is a good chance the store was occupied by mere books or was vacant at the time of death instead of having expensive guitars and such, plus it's the worst possible attire to rob a store with. Add on the broken pelvis which would've made it near impossible to even get on the roof in the first place.
The estimated time of death is 2 months to 2 years, the Good 'n' Loud apparently had only been open for 6 weeks before the body was found.

Though they announced it was opening back in April of 1989...

 

[Curious_in_NC]

The estimated time of death is 2 months to 2 years, the Good 'n' Loud apparently had only been open for 6 weeks before the body was found.

Though they announced it was opening back in April of 1989...

rsbm
Hey, this makes a lot more sense now as a burglary target. Earlier in this thread Good 'N Loud had been described as a record store. But they were/are a musical instrument store. If they were storing some inventory there weeks or months before they opened, or even if someone just thought they were doing that, that time frame might make more sense for when the UID was thought to have been trapped. Stealing guitars sounds a lot more lucrative than records or Christian books.