WI WI - Madison, WhtMale 18-35, 745UMWI, in chimney, fem clothing, German iron cross medallion, Sep'89

[dotr]

Just noting this somewhat similar case, fwiw..
August 13, 2019
https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/local/article173627656.html
"Retired Bellingham Police officer Al Jensen talks about the case of the body found in a chimney on Sept. 20, 1987,at Georgia-Pacific pulp mill in Bellingham. The body was never identified"
"Sept. 20, 1987, was a pleasant Sunday in Bellingham, with a light breeze and temperatures in the 70s".
"According to the autopsy and police, the victim was likely a man of slight stature, about 25 to 35 years old. He was 5 feet 8 inches to 5 feet 9 inches tall, and weighed 130 to 155 pounds."

"In 2006, a news story raised the question of whether the victim might have been female. Richard Severson, a steam engineer at Western Washington University, told The Bellingham Herald that he had given a woman a tour of Western’s steam plant in late summer 1987."

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

Just noting this somewhat similar case, fwiw..
August 13, 2019
https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/local/article173627656.html
"Retired Bellingham Police officer Al Jensen talks about the case of the body found in a chimney on Sept. 20, 1987,at Georgia-Pacific pulp mill in Bellingham. The body was never identified"
"Sept. 20, 1987, was a pleasant Sunday in Bellingham, with a light breeze and temperatures in the 70s".
"According to the autopsy and police, the victim was likely a man of slight stature, about 25 to 35 years old. He was 5 feet 8 inches to 5 feet 9 inches tall, and weighed 130 to 155 pounds."

"In 2006, a news story raised the question of whether the victim might have been female. Richard Severson, a steam engineer at Western Washington University, told The Bellingham Herald that he had given a woman a tour of Western’s steam plant in late summer 1987."

Whoa! Has someone called this in to Madison PD? I’m sure that whoever is investigating this case would want to take a look.

 

[dotr]

Whoa! Has someone called this in to Madison PD? I’m sure that whoever is investigating this case would want to take a look.

Just found the thread for that UID person.
Ws thread..
WA - WA - Bellingham, WhtMale 862UMWA, 27-37, in Georgia Pacific chimney, Sep'87

 

[Daphne1972]

If it was Halloween 1988, then the boiler would have been used because of the cold. Right? But the chimney worked just fine otherwise he would have been found in November 1988.
When did that Christian bookstore close?

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

If it was Halloween 1988, then the boiler would have been used because of the cold. Right? But the chimney worked just fine otherwise he would have been found in November 1988.
When did that Christian bookstore close?

Looking into it right now. I don't think it had closed then, just relocated.

Additionally I found this article from Milwaukee Magazine from within the last year or so: https://www.milwaukeemag.com/curious-case-cross-dressing-corpse/

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

Bumping this thread. I was in Madison this weekend and I drove around that area. Completely redeveloped and Good N’ Loud has been torn down. I hope MPD is at least periodically checking this thread.

 

[vw51212]

I wonder if the ME would be willing to consider that this small male in women's clothing was actually a child born with ambiguous genitalia, and was gender assigned a female sex assignment (as was common) and thus lived as a female.
Maybe looking at a local Madison female same height and weight and only 2 years older than the estimated DOE age, that went missing 2 years prior may give a lead no one explored prior because they were looking for a male only. The nose and jaw line is very similar. There is DNA on the missing girl, Thoughts?
Marcia Arlen Fischer – The Charley Project
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

I wonder if the ME would be willing to consider that this small male in women's clothing was actually a child born with ambiguous genitalia, and was gender assigned a female sex assignment (as was common) and thus lived as a female.
Maybe looking at a local Madison female same height and weight and only 2 years older than the estimated DOE age, that went missing 2 years prior may give a lead no one explored prior because they were looking for a male only. The nose and jaw line is very similar. There is DNA on the missing girl, Thoughts?
Marcia Arlen Fischer – The Charley Project
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

I think it would be worthy to call in, although the hair color is slightly off.

 

[dotr]

I wonder if the ME would be willing to consider that this small male in women's clothing was actually a child born with ambiguous genitalia, and was gender assigned a female sex assignment (as was common) and thus lived as a female.
Maybe looking at a local Madison female same height and weight and only 2 years older than the estimated DOE age, that went missing 2 years prior may give a lead no one explored prior because they were looking for a male only. The nose and jaw line is very similar. There is DNA on the missing girl, Thoughts?
Marcia Arlen Fischer – The Charley Project
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

Interesting and possible, there are a few cases on Ws where gender was misidentified, imo.

• 
• 

Fischer, circa 1982

 

[vw51212]

I think it would be worthy to call in, although the hair color is slightly off.

I submitted it to the Doe Network, contemplated it long enough, looked at that nose and jaw long enough, i'm pretty convinced that its her and the UP gender assignment of male is wrong, not to mention police report openly admit that it may NOT be a male.

 

[dotr]

I submitted it to the Doe Network, contemplated it long enough, looked at that nose and jaw long enough, i'm pretty convinced that its her and the UP gender assignment of male is wrong, not to mention police report openly admit that it may NOT be a male.

This is Marcia's thread..
WI - WI - Marcia Fischer, 37, Madison, 1 Jan 1982

 

[houndpounder]

I submitted it to the Doe Network, contemplated it long enough, looked at that nose and jaw long enough, i'm pretty convinced that its her and the UP gender assignment of male is wrong, not to mention police report openly admit that it may NOT be a male.

Of course you should. The one you miss may be the match!

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

Bumping this thread again after looking over some previous posts and talking to a couple people in town who were living in the general area during that time. Here are some things that might be somewhat helpful - a lot of this is just going to be summarization of previous posts but it might be a good primer for those who are new. For those who are new - I am somewhat local to this case and my dad and his family lived in Madison at the time this UID was found.

• Based off his height, I'd place the UID in an age range where it's possible to still be growing if he's a local. Personally, I think that this UID is on the younger end of the estimated age range - and possibly even younger than that. I'm suspecting this because, growing up in this area at that time, my dad was about 5'7" ish at 17-18 and was one of the shortest boys in his grade by quite a bit. LOTS and lots of larger men of European descent, particularly German and Slavic, in the area. I also think this could be a reason for the uncertainty about the UID's gender assigned at birth. If I were MPD, I'd be estimating this UID to be anywhere from 15-24 years old based on height and facial structure.
• Madison has a large LGBTQ+ population, and it is a well known area for LGBTQ+ travelers to frequent. Given the fact our UID was found in women's clothing, there is a possibility they are trans or dressed in drag. There were a few major gay bars open at the time our UID was found - Back East, Cardinal Bar, Rod's/New Bar, Phaze II & Shamrock. The only one of the five that is still open currently is Shamrock, and I'm unsure if anyone has explored the avenue of going there and talking to someone about the UID.
• Good N' Loud had opened at the location where the UID was found about six weeks prior. The previous occupant of the building was a Christian bookstore called The Bread Shop, which was at that location from 1983-89. A lot of the talk about summer concerts in this thread makes some sense, but if we're looking at timeline here, this particular location would've been The Bread Shop until roughly late June/early July 1989 and none of the big concerts mentioned happened during that time frame. Additionally, if we're looking at The Bread Shop angle, we're possibly looking more at a hate crime unfortunately
• Madison West is probably not the high school our UID attended if he ended up being in his 20's. My dad and uncle both attended West during the time span that this UID would have likely been in high school - late 70's-mid '80s - and I can get access to hard copies of West yearbooks from 1979-86. I've gone through all of the '80-'81 and '81-'82 yearbooks for potential matches and verified whether they were still alive with family members - nothing that really sticks out. I'm trying to get access to the '85-'86 book soon, and my uncle is still VERY much in touch with his classmates so anyone resembling our UID in that book should be able to be easily ruled out.
• It might be worthwhile to look at the JMM and Middleton yearbooks from 1977-1986. Based off geographical location where our UID was found, it would be a pretty easy drive to both schools had this person been a local. My dad had a few friends from sports growing up that went to JMM, so I might be able to get access to those yearbooks if I ask around. Depending on the specific part of town they lived in, it could be a crap shoot as to whether or not someone's family and friends cared about them going missing. If they were born in the 60s and lived in the general area of campus or had parents etc that worked at UW or in state government, it's highly unlikely that they are our UID - and with the demographics of the area at the time that is a fairly large chunk of the youth population in Madison.
• UW DID NOT keep detailed records of students that just stopped attending classes during the semester, and I'm finding it less and less likely that this UID was a UW student. The registrar's office probably would not be able to help with students that dropped out at semester either - that's a large population, and at that time I don't think there were photos on student ID's. However, Good N' Loud is not close to campus at all, The Bread Shop is likely not a location that appealed to students, and most students at the time did not have cars and public transport was not as robust as it is now.
• The location where this UID was found was recently torn down and the area has been completely redeveloped. A newly built drive through espresso bar is, unfortunately, the only thing at that address. Buildings around that might have been there at the time are an auto body shop, a veterinary hospital and a Perkins restaurant. The store itself was a standalone and was not in a strip mall or anything similar from what I can gather.

I hope some of this information is helpful and presents avenues for discussion that could help crack the case.

 

[carbuff]

UW medical center has long been a go-to place for trans people seeking medical assistance with transitioning, too. So it's possible the person was from out of the area and only living in Madison temporarily?

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

UW medical center has long been a go-to place for trans people seeking medical assistance with transitioning, too. So it's possible the person was from out of the area and only living in Madison temporarily?

This is a solid theory, and it would make me wonder whether this individual had a run in with the wrong person and was transported to that location given that the majority of LGBTQ+ resources and community spots are and have been more downtown and east side based, although there are some outliers to that. If we're looking at this theory, there is a solid chance that this person was never reported missing and/or is not recognizable by people who may know them due to HRT - which was absolutely offered at UW in the mid to late 80's.

If we're going with a general not from the area theory, I want to toss my suggestion of Matt Garnes out there again. He is definitely from pretty far away from Madison and said he was going to Portland when he disappeared, but a lot could have happened in 3-4 years away from home. In '89 he would have been 20-21 years old. 4363DMWA - Matthew Paul Garnes
Here's a comparison of the composite MPD drew up with a picture of Matt. I see some similarities in both the nose and the eye sockets, and I think the composite looks kind of like what Matt's face COULD look like after a couple years of puberty, jawline becoming more defined, etc. My only gripe with this one is that he was on the taller end of our UID's height range at 16 and likely would be taller than 5'7" 3-4 years later down the road.

 

[dotr]

This is a solid theory, and it would make me wonder whether this individual had a run in with the wrong person and was transported to that location given that the majority of LGBTQ+ resources and community spots are and have been more downtown and east side based, although there are some outliers to that. If we're looking at this theory, there is a solid chance that this person was never reported missing and/or is not recognizable by people who may know them due to HRT - which was absolutely offered at UW in the mid to late 80's.

If we're going with a general not from the area theory, I want to toss my suggestion of Matt Garnes out there again. He is definitely from pretty far away from Madison and said he was going to Portland when he disappeared, but a lot could have happened in 3-4 years away from home. In '89 he would have been 20-21 years old. 4363DMWA - Matthew Paul Garnes
Here's a comparison of the composite MPD drew up with a picture of Matt. I see some similarities in both the nose and the eye sockets, and I think the composite looks kind of like what Matt's face COULD look like after a couple years of puberty, jawline becoming more defined, etc. My only gripe with this one is that he was on the taller end of our UID's height range at 16 and likely would be taller than 5'7" 3-4 years later down the road.

Ws thread..
WA - WA - Matthew Garnes, 16, Tacoma, 26 Dec 1984

 

[theshadow45]

This Doe has been unidentified for 31 years today.

 

[Savemecastiel]

Bumping

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

Bumping this thread again after looking over some previous posts and talking to a couple people in town who were living in the general area during that time. Here are some things that might be somewhat helpful - a lot of this is just going to be summarization of previous posts but it might be a good primer for those who are new. For those who are new - I am somewhat local to this case and my dad and his family lived in Madison at the time this UID was found.

• Based off his height, I'd place the UID in an age range where it's possible to still be growing if he's a local. Personally, I think that this UID is on the younger end of the estimated age range - and possibly even younger than that. I'm suspecting this because, growing up in this area at that time, my dad was about 5'7" ish at 17-18 and was one of the shortest boys in his grade by quite a bit. LOTS and lots of larger men of European descent, particularly German and Slavic, in the area. I also think this could be a reason for the uncertainty about the UID's gender assigned at birth. If I were MPD, I'd be estimating this UID to be anywhere from 15-24 years old based on height and facial structure.
• Madison has a large LGBTQ+ population, and it is a well known area for LGBTQ+ travelers to frequent. Given the fact our UID was found in women's clothing, there is a possibility they are trans or dressed in drag. There were a few major gay bars open at the time our UID was found - Back East, Cardinal Bar, Rod's/New Bar, Phaze II & Shamrock. The only one of the five that is still open currently is Shamrock, and I'm unsure if anyone has explored the avenue of going there and talking to someone about the UID.
• Good N' Loud had opened at the location where the UID was found about six weeks prior. The previous occupant of the building was a Christian bookstore called The Bread Shop, which was at that location from 1983-89. A lot of the talk about summer concerts in this thread makes some sense, but if we're looking at timeline here, this particular location would've been The Bread Shop until roughly late June/early July 1989 and none of the big concerts mentioned happened during that time frame. Additionally, if we're looking at The Bread Shop angle, we're possibly looking more at a hate crime unfortunately
• Madison West is probably not the high school our UID attended if he ended up being in his 20's. My dad and uncle both attended West during the time span that this UID would have likely been in high school - late 70's-mid '80s - and I can get access to hard copies of West yearbooks from 1979-86. I've gone through all of the '80-'81 and '81-'82 yearbooks for potential matches and verified whether they were still alive with family members - nothing that really sticks out. I'm trying to get access to the '85-'86 book soon, and my uncle is still VERY much in touch with his classmates so anyone resembling our UID in that book should be able to be easily ruled out.
• It might be worthwhile to look at the JMM and Middleton yearbooks from 1977-1986. Based off geographical location where our UID was found, it would be a pretty easy drive to both schools had this person been a local. My dad had a few friends from sports growing up that went to JMM, so I might be able to get access to those yearbooks if I ask around. Depending on the specific part of town they lived in, it could be a crap shoot as to whether or not someone's family and friends cared about them going missing. If they were born in the 60s and lived in the general area of campus or had parents etc that worked at UW or in state government, it's highly unlikely that they are our UID - and with the demographics of the area at the time that is a fairly large chunk of the youth population in Madison.
• UW DID NOT keep detailed records of students that just stopped attending classes during the semester, and I'm finding it less and less likely that this UID was a UW student. The registrar's office probably would not be able to help with students that dropped out at semester either - that's a large population, and at that time I don't think there were photos on student ID's. However, Good N' Loud is not close to campus at all, The Bread Shop is likely not a location that appealed to students, and most students at the time did not have cars and public transport was not as robust as it is now.
• The location where this UID was found was recently torn down and the area has been completely redeveloped. A newly built drive through espresso bar is, unfortunately, the only thing at that address. Buildings around that might have been there at the time are an auto body shop, a veterinary hospital and a Perkins restaurant. The store itself was a standalone and was not in a strip mall or anything similar from what I can gather.

I hope some of this information is helpful and presents avenues for discussion that could help crack the case.

Bringing this back down because I've moved to Madison since this was posted and have noticed a couple things geography-wise that are important to note here as well as have gotten access to the 82-83 West yearbook, which, unsurprisingly yielded nothing of note.

The specific area that the UID was found in would NOT be in the West attendance area. If this were a high school student or local, we need to put a heavier amount of focus on JMM. I would say that my previous statement about Madison demographics at the time is more accurate to the West attendance area, but the city as a whole was certainly more white-collar than the rest of the surrounding areas at the time. I have a friend whose parents attended West at the same time as my uncle, ran with a different crowd (non UW faculty kids), had more interaction with JMM kids and attended a college nearby when this UID was found. I've brought this case up with him and he's definitely going to ask his parents and other family members about it.

I would also possibly put a bit of focus on the auto body shop, especially if there were people that had perhaps left a broken down car and not picked it up, or a young mechanic who quit and didn't come back... I would also take a look at Madison Area Technical College students if we're looking into the auto body angle. The population that, at that time would have gone to a tech or trade school is VERY likely to be the type of population that would be living in that area.

 

[theshadow45]

This Doe has been unidentified for 32 years today.