WV WV - Sodder Family - 5 children, Christmas eve 1945 - #4

House collapses on top of itself. Dad, Mom, older bro and sis have accidentally murdered their 5 youngest in an insurance scam. As one of our favorite posters points out, town did not really GAF about them then and even less now.
I think a botched fire / escape / insurance claim is plausible.

In regards to animosity towards the family stemming from Mr. Sodder's support of Mussolini, such support (usually tacit and not direct) was fairly common prior to the US entry into WWII.

Starting with the "Red Scares" in the 1920s and continuing into how to best address the Great Depression, anti communist sentiments were strong in the US. So was the idea of a need for a right wing, law and order minded leader to keep the commies away and the US on the right path (get it, get it).

Mussolini, needless to say was very anti communist and law and order minded. Furthermore, unlike his Hitler, his genocidal ally, Mussolini was not antisemitic.

In the end, tacit support of Mussolini or even, well, Hitler prior to WWII would not have been unusual in US society. Open, direct support of Mussolini prior to Pearl Harbor would probably have been seen as odd (why care that much about places so far away), but usually no cause for animosity per se.

After Pearl Harbor, support for Mussolini would cause animosity. But.... by then many had uhmm....."re phrased" their prior support to the acceptable: "Support Mussolini? Oh, God- no, absolutely not! I just thought he had some good ideas".
 
The beginning of all my sub theories is always the insurance guy, Mr. J, and George plotting an insurance scam which included burning the house down and possibly even loss of life.

In this scenario, kids survive.

So Jennie, their business accountant and whether she liked it or not, in on insurance scam. But! First she arranged for her eldest daughter to stay up downstairs, and shepherd her 5 youngest into the possession of these Cipriani relatives. She even ordered the two oldest boys to be outside doing chores in the barn. How easy to take the girls, put them in a waiting car and tell them she loved them and to be good etc. I am thinking in this scenario, kids knew someone in the car.
The witnesses who saw the children with Italian speakers seem believable. Especially because they always mention the Italianness, the abrupt foreign speech, the hostile piercing eyes seen and heard utterly from ordinary country folk.

Everyone do not get mad at me but I can even see a mother thinking that maybe she should get her youngest kids out of this place and even back to Italy and out of growing up to be in the coal business, miners etc. like the Sardinians were as well, Jennie Cipriani was not Sardinian.

Anyway I can see a mom stretched to her limits and feeling her family threatened financially and maybe even their lives, agreeing to letting her side of the family have these children, take them far away and love them.

thus, she tended a garden for dead children and he was the one who searched to the end for live children.

Because in the scenario above this one, #1 he murdered the kids accidentally in an insurance scam...so he has to be seen to hysterically believe they are alive somewhere although he has seen their death certificates. In the above scenario #2, Insurance scam, but kids must SEEM dead although have been adopted by loving relatives.

Now, about those 4 vertebrae. 16 to 18 year old. That info about the boat Verona comes in handy yes it does. All of that secrecy about back home, etc. Did someone who was aboard the Verona with them, one of the 11, commit a crime later, like murder a 16 to 18 year old. All that going back and forth to Italy especially the bro who returned directly to Italy after dropping George off...

and to add a Dan Brown masonic twist as one poster suggested...that whole Fra Francesco thing, loved it, the pic of the very handsome Dr. Francesco palermo, with his accolades, notice he received his degree from the University of Verona.

There is something untold about this, we sense it, and it will always elude us.
more on The Verona.
On May 11th, 1918, VERONA, in use as troopship and on voyage from Messina to Tripoli with 3.000 troops, was sunk by the German submarine UC-52 (Hellmuth von Doemming), 4 miles from Reggio, near Cape Peloro, in the Strait of Messina. She sank in 25 minutes. 880 crew and soldiers were lost. Read more at wrecksite: WRECKSITE - VERONA OCEAN LINER 1908-1918
 
I’m operating under my personal opinion that the children survived the fire (who knows what happened after) so this question sounds rather biased but has Granddaughter or a family member made any mention of taking an Ancestry/23andme test?

Whatever happened, I feel like this case can only be solved w/ new discoveries or something that prompts somebody to come forward.
 
Someone mentioned George's attitude about Mussolini???
I don't have time to research his opinion, but many, many immigrants have very strong opinions about their homeland. I doubt someone would go to rural WV to seek out George. Sure there are political rivalries from the old country that carry over into the US.

But killing people? It does happen. It happened with the Armenians when someone from a rival political party murdered the US Archbishop of the Armenian Church in NYC. (This caused the church to split in two)

However, George is in the middle of nowhere. He's not a mover and shaker like an archbishop. The archbishop was the head of the Armenians in the US, so yeah...

I'm sure there have been other crimes based on "the old country", but among the working class they usual involve cold stares, grudges, gossip and swear words etc. (In modern day, they involve bickering online)

My grandfather and great grandfather stayed active in the politics of Armenia, even though they both came here prior to WWI. They were very active in the Hunchakian Party of Soviet Armenia. (The rivalry part was the Dashnak Party. To the point that Hunchakian Party members do not date members of the rival political party) (Yes, they lived in Milwaukee) Yes, there were shouting matches and grudges. But that's where it ended.


If he was outspoken against Mussolini, he likely had plenty of company by 1945.
 
Last edited:
Ciao, scusa se rispondo solo ora ai post precedenti.

Vivono in Sardegna, l'isola dove è nato Giorgio Soddu alias George Sodder.

In merito alle richieste di cui sopra:

1) Giorgio Soddu è nato a Tula, dove ancora oggi risiedono i discendenti dei suoi parenti.

2) Il cognome Soddu è un cognome noto sardo, in questo caso del Nord Sardegna. In tutta l'isola sono presenti oltre 800 famiglie che portano questo cognome.

3) il cognome Saddu è raro in Sardegna. Ci sono alcune persone che hanno quel cognome, ma è raro. Saddu potrebbe essere una deformazione di Soddu. Oppure potrebbe essere qualcuno dall'Italia, ma come ho specificato in altri post, Sardegna e Italia sono 2 paesi diversi.

4) Dalle mie ricerche ho potuto accertare che il 100% degli immigrati sardi che andavano in America partivano principalmente da due porti:
Cagliari e Porto Torres (Sassari). dalla Sardegna si raggiunge l'Italia dopo 10/12 ore di navigazione nel Mediterraneo.

Dall'Italia il viaggio poteva proseguire su 2 strade:

1) sempre via mare attraverso i porti di Genova e Palermo (i sardi raramente si imbarcavano in altri porti come Livorno, Napoli, Bari o Venezia).2) via terra fino al nord della Francia Le Havre.
 
Mi sono già espresso sulla questione della mafia: conoscendo abbastanza bene il fenomeno storico e sociologico, mi sento di escludere con certezza ogni implicazione mafiosa. Forse la tua visione cinematografica stereotipata della mafia ti porta a crederci. Personalmente escludo il movente della ritorsione mafiosa, in quei modi, secondo le modalità riscontrate.

Considero del tutto fuori luogo e improbabile la pista della vendetta fascista. Questa è una pista molto fantasiosa, perché il fascismo caduto nel 1943, nel dicembre del '45 era già cibo per i vermi ormai da diversi mesi. Quindi: dopo l'8 settembre 1943, con l'arresto di Mussolini, i sostenitori del fascismo erano meno della metà del 1940 (quando l'Italia entra in guerra). Dopo il 25 aprile 1945 i fascisti in Italia furono praticamente neutralizzati, debellati. Dopo il 25 aprile in Italia ci fu la caccia al fascista da parte di partigiani comunisti, socialisti e cattolici. I fascisti scapparono come topi dalle fogne. Quindi pensare che Sodder abbia avuto ritorsioni per la sua opinione negativa su Mussolini mi sembra piuttosto assurdo.
 
So once upon a time Sardinia was wooded like the WV (at least as I imagine the WV is, since I have never been there), it is rich in Coal, it has beautiful mountains and both have the presence of Astronomical Observatories.

I have no difficulty in imagining why George decided to settle in WV,

As a side note, both Sardinia and West Virginia also had similar honor based cultures.

Personal honor, family, respect, loyalty were valued. Likewise, both societies also tolerated at least some levels of violence in defense of those values.

In short, Sodder / Soddu probably felt at home geographically and culturally in WV. Language, religion, food is different from Sardinia to WV. But honor culture and expectations were the same.
 
Mi sono già espresso sulla questione della mafia: conoscendo abbastanza bene il fenomeno storico e sociologico, mi sento di escludere con certezza ogni implicazione mafiosa. Forse la tua visione cinematografica stereotipata della mafia ti porta a crederci. Personalmente escludo il movente della ritorsione mafiosa, in quei modi, secondo le modalità riscontrate.

Considero del tutto fuori luogo e improbabile la pista della vendetta fascista. Questa è una pista molto fantasiosa, perché il fascismo caduto nel 1943, nel dicembre del '45 era già cibo per i vermi ormai da diversi mesi. Quindi: dopo l'8 settembre 1943, con l'arresto di Mussolini, i sostenitori del fascismo erano meno della metà del 1940 (quando l'Italia entra in guerra). Dopo il 25 aprile 1945 i fascisti in Italia furono praticamente neutralizzati, debellati. Dopo il 25 aprile in Italia ci fu la caccia al fascista da parte di partigiani comunisti, socialisti e cattolici. I fascisti scapparono come topi dalle fogne. Quindi pensare che Sodder abbia avuto ritorsioni per la sua opinione negativa su Mussolini mi sembra piuttosto assurdo.

Can someone translate these two posts? Poster has previously posted in English. Not sure if they are reaching out to non English speaking Italians or Sardinians and the text is the same as prior English language ones. Thanks.
 
Can someone translate these two posts? Poster has previously posted in English. Not sure if they are reaching out to non English speaking Italians or Sardinians and the text is the same as prior English language ones. Thanks.
I can try. Using tech, not my own fluency, so there may be errors:

First post was:

“Hi, sorry if I'm only responding to the previous posts now.

They live in Sardinia, the island where Giorgio Soddu aka George Sodder was born.

Regarding the above requests:

1) Giorgio Soddu was born in Tula, where the descendants of his relatives still reside today.

2) The surname Soddu is a known Sardinian surname, in this case from Northern Sardinia. Across the island there are over 800 families bearing this surname.

3) the surname Saddu is rare in Sardinia. There are some people who have that last name, but it's rare. Saddu could be a Soddu deformation. Or it could be someone from Italy, but as I specified in other posts, Sardinia and Italy are 2 different countries.

4) From my research I was able to ascertain that 100% of Sardinian immigrants who went to America left mainly from two ports:

Cagliari and Porto Torres (Sassari). from Sardinia you can reach Italy after 10/12 hours of sailing in the Mediterranean.

From Italy the journey could continue on 2 roads:

1) always by sea through the ports of Genoa and Palermo (Sardards rarely embarked in other ports such as Livorno, Naples, Bari or Venice).2) by land to the north of France Le Havre.”


Second post:

I have already expressed myself on the issue of the mafia: knowing the historical and sociological phenomenon quite well, I feel I can certainly exclude any mafia implication. Perhaps your stereotypical cinematic view of the mafia leads you to believe it. Personally, I exclude the motive of mafia retaliation, in those ways, according to the modalities found.

I consider the trail of fascist revenge to be completely out of place and unlikely. This is a very imaginative track, because fascism that fell in 1943, in December of '45 was already food for worms for several months now. So: after September 8, 1943, with Mussolini's arrest, the supporters of fascism were less than the middle of 1940s (when Italy entered the war). After April 25, 1945 the fascists in Italy were practically neutralized, eradicated. After April 25 in Italy there was the hunt for the fascist by communist, socialist and Catholic partisans. The fascists escaped like rats from the sewers. So to think that Sodder had retaliation for his negative opinion of Mussolini seems rather absurd to me.”
 
I can try. Using tech, not my own fluency, so there may be errors:

First post was:

“Hi, sorry if I'm only responding to the previous posts now.

They live in Sardinia, the island where Giorgio Soddu aka George Sodder was born.

Regarding the above requests:

1) Giorgio Soddu was born in Tula, where the descendants of his relatives still reside today.

2) The surname Soddu is a known Sardinian surname, in this case from Northern Sardinia. Across the island there are over 800 families bearing this surname.

3) the surname Saddu is rare in Sardinia. There are some people who have that last name, but it's rare. Saddu could be a Soddu deformation. Or it could be someone from Italy, but as I specified in other posts, Sardinia and Italy are 2 different countries.

4) From my research I was able to ascertain that 100% of Sardinian immigrants who went to America left mainly from two ports:

Cagliari and Porto Torres (Sassari). from Sardinia you can reach Italy after 10/12 hours of sailing in the Mediterranean.

From Italy the journey could continue on 2 roads:

1) always by sea through the ports of Genoa and Palermo (Sardards rarely embarked in other ports such as Livorno, Naples, Bari or Venice).2) by land to the north of France Le Havre.”


Second post:

I have already expressed myself on the issue of the mafia: knowing the historical and sociological phenomenon quite well, I feel I can certainly exclude any mafia implication. Perhaps your stereotypical cinematic view of the mafia leads you to believe it. Personally, I exclude the motive of mafia retaliation, in those ways, according to the modalities found.

I consider the trail of fascist revenge to be completely out of place and unlikely. This is a very imaginative track, because fascism that fell in 1943, in December of '45 was already food for worms for several months now. So: after September 8, 1943, with Mussolini's arrest, the supporters of fascism were less than the middle of 1940s (when Italy entered the war). After April 25, 1945 the fascists in Italy were practically neutralized, eradicated. After April 25 in Italy there was the hunt for the fascist by communist, socialist and Catholic partisans. The fascists escaped like rats from the sewers. So to think that Sodder had retaliation for his negative opinion of Mussolini seems rather absurd to me.”

Thanks.
 
Can someone translate these two posts? Poster has previously posted in English. Not sure if they are reaching out to non English speaking Italians or Sardinians and the text is the same as prior English language ones. Thanks.
I apologize for the mistake: I wrote the message in English but when I published it it was automatically translated into Italian.

The message has been translated correctly by EphemerallyAya. I thank for the translation.
 
Hi,

I’m new here and I see a lot of threads, so if it’s been addressed already, can you please direct me to it.

Were there any age progression photos done for the missing children? If so, were they made public?
 
Hi,

I’m new here and I see a lot of threads, so if it’s been addressed already, can you please direct me to it.

Were there any age progression photos done for the missing children? If so, were they made public?
Not that I am aware of. The technology might not have existed back then.
 
Critical Things the Documentary Did Not Mention:

1.) George bulldozing the house site within days after the fire, even though the Fire Marshall told him not to do so, as it would destroy potential evidence. He did it anyway, because it was too painful for him to look at his burned out home.

2.) Authorities were able to prove that the photo that the Sodders got in the mail allegedly of Louis was not Louis. The ears and nose do not match.

3.) I was searching here and found that Jennie had a brother named Frank in another thread. The documentary said that there was no evidence of a "Frankie" in the family. "Brother Frankie" had been written on the back of the alleged Louis Sodder photo.

4.) No mention that witnesses saw kids in the upstairs windows during the fire.

5.) The whole story of kids being allowed to play with their toys how the kids downstairs were the ones who parished. (Except Marion.) The kids upstaris, survived.

6.) Jennie awakened by the mysterious phone call at about 12:30am. The loud sound of something hitting the house a short tome later. When she got up to investigate all the lights still on and her daughter Marion asleep downstairs on a couch. How did Marion sleep through a kidnapping?

7.) It was later alleged that child's remains were found, but the family was not told because it was too upsetting being Christmas.

8.) The Italian Mafia would take out family patriarchs, but historically was very protective of children.

9.) No mention of John Soddar yelling upstairs to the kids. He claims he saw one of the kids upstairs and tried to shake him awake. He got no response. But did not tell this to his parents out of fear of upsetting them more. I am not sure, but I think John changed his story for police. Once claiming he yelled upstairs, ran up and saw them. Later he said, he only yelled out to them.

I think the phone line cutter and the fire starter were the same person. This was arson. The intent was to hurt George by burning down his property. But not to take his kids. I think they died in the flames? Why weren't their remains found? George bulldozed over the evidence that could have led authorities to find some of them, but not all remains.

Satch
 
Critical Things the Documentary Did Not Mention:

1.) George bulldozing the house site within days after the fire, even though the Fire Marshall told him not to do so, as it would destroy potential evidence. He did it anyway, because it was too painful for him to look at his burned out home.

2.) Authorities were able to prove that the photo that the Sodders got in the mail allegedly of Louis was not Louis. The ears and nose do not match.

3.) I was searching here and found that Jennie had a brother named Frank in another thread. The documentary said that there was no evidence of a "Frankie" in the family. "Brother Frankie" had been written on the back of the alleged Louis Sodder photo.

4.) No mention that witnesses saw kids in the upstairs windows during the fire.

5.) The whole story of kids being allowed to play with their toys how the kids downstairs were the ones who parished. (Except Marion.) The kids upstaris, survived.

6.) Jennie awakened by the mysterious phone call at about 12:30am. The loud sound of something hitting the house a short tome later. When she got up to investigate all the lights still on and her daughter Marion asleep downstairs on a couch. How did Marion sleep through a kidnapping?

7.) It was later alleged that child's remains were found, but the family was not told because it was too upsetting being Christmas.

8.) The Italian Mafia would take out family patriarchs, but historically was very protective of children.

9.) No mention of John Soddar yelling upstairs to the kids. He claims he saw one of the kids upstairs and tried to shake him awake. He got no response. But did not tell this to his parents out of fear of upsetting them more. I am not sure, but I think John changed his story for police. Once claiming he yelled upstairs, ran up and saw them. Later he said, he only yelled out to them.

I think the phone line cutter and the fire starter were the same person. This was arson. The intent was to hurt George by burning down his property. But not to take his kids. I think they died in the flames? Why weren't their remains found? George bulldozed over the evidence that could have led authorities to find some of them, but not all remains.

Satch
You make some good points but just to clarify some things:

#2 - Right before the Sodders received the photo of the supposed Louis a popular detective magazine had published a story on the missing Sodder children. I can't prove it but I suspect someone was playing a joke on the Sodders.

#4 - The woman who claimed to see children in the upstairs window later recanted her story.

#5 - This one has always confused me. I grew up in a home that had rules but wasn't too strict and we NEVER stayed up past when our parents went to bed in fact I can't think of any kids in my neighborhood who was allowed to do that. I am not sure how they celebrated Christmas but with Santa Claus coming you would think they would want to be in bed so as to wake up early to upon up gifts. The only other possibility is if they went outside to the barn to see if they could find were the parents hid their gifts.

#6 - Marion was very tired that night so it's easy to see her sleeping soundly. As for the phone calls a woman did say she made a mistake when calling the Sodders but then claimed she never called them. She may have been drunk and the telephone operator misheard her or maybe it was the operator who messed up. The telephone operators weren't on their best game that night.

#8 - I agree. I am 100% certain the mafia had nothing to do with this.

The one person who I would want to question is Lonnie Johnson. The guy was a known liar who was in trouble with the law his entire life. He was the brightest criminal in the world but I don't believe he was a cold-blooded murderer.

There is a book by Rob Lane Bragg called, No Direct Evidence: The Story of the Missing Sodder Children that goes into more detail of the mystery that I would advise people to read if they want to know more
 
You make some good points but just to clarify some things:

#2 - Right before the Sodders received the photo of the supposed Louis a popular detective magazine had published a story on the missing Sodder children. I can't prove it but I suspect someone was playing a joke on the Sodders.

#4 - The woman who claimed to see children in the upstairs window later recanted her story.

#5 - This one has always confused me. I grew up in a home that had rules but wasn't too strict and we NEVER stayed up past when our parents went to bed in fact I can't think of any kids in my neighborhood who was allowed to do that. I am not sure how they celebrated Christmas but with Santa Claus coming you would think they would want to be in bed so as to wake up early to upon up gifts. The only other possibility is if they went outside to the barn to see if they could find were the parents hid their gifts.

#6 - Marion was very tired that night so it's easy to see her sleeping soundly. As for the phone calls a woman did say she made a mistake when calling the Sodders but then claimed she never called them. She may have been drunk and the telephone operator misheard her or maybe it was the operator who messed up. The telephone operators weren't on their best game that night.

#8 - I agree. I am 100% certain the mafia had nothing to do with this.

The one person who I would want to question is Lonnie Johnson. The guy was a known liar who was in trouble with the law his entire life. He was the brightest criminal in the world but I don't believe he was a cold-blooded murderer.

There is a book by Rob Lane Bragg called, No Direct Evidence: The Story of the Missing Sodder Children that goes into more detail of the mystery that I would advise people to read if they want to know more
Wasn't LJ the one who confessed to cutting the phone lines and moving the ladder?

Jack
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
204
Guests online
3,888
Total visitors
4,092

Forum statistics

Threads
591,750
Messages
17,958,402
Members
228,602
Latest member
jrak
Back
Top