Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #2

[JBowie]

It has nothing to do with the current investigation as far as we know, does it?

It has been raised in the media, and discussed here, in relation to the family involved in this case.

We know very little about the investigation. Police are keeping those details close to their chest at this stage.

 

[Amalgam]

they're not really similar in appearance though but thank you for thinking outside the box.

The hallucinogenic psilocybe mushrooms that grow in Victoria may not look anything like a death cap mushroom, but there is another common mushroom called Galerina Marginata that can be almost identical to the local psilocybe species that is packed with the same amatoxins that make death caps so deadly.

 

[kittythehare]

This is not death metal btw.

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[kittythehare]

The hallucinogenic psilocybe mushrooms that grow in Victoria may not look anything like a death cap mushroom, but there is another common mushroom called Galerina Marginata that can be almost identical to the local psilocybe species that is packed with the same amatoxins that make death caps so deadly.

Trying to figger how they arrived at the diagnosis in the first place?

You're correct about the Galerina

Mushroom poisoning

Contrary to popular belief, there is no home test that can distinguish between edible and poisonous varieties of wild fungi or mushrooms.

www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au

I'm wondering what other substances can bring about similar symptoms.

 

[kittythehare]

For context

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/death-wall-inside-mushroom-chefs-house/news-story/a879b2505a32b22dc16214201659dab4

 

[Amalgam]

It will be interesting to hear what the various toxicology reports find, or have found. If nothing toxic, and given the deaths, then one would have to question what was handed over for testing.

Detectable levels of amatoxin (the deadly component of death caps) do not last long in the body. By the time symptoms of poisoning arise, levels of the poison have often fallen below the threshold of detection.

There are other ways to establish death cap mushroom poisoning, however.

I firmly believe that microscopic examination of samples of the deceased victim’s bowel contents will be found to contain the spores of amatoxin bearing mushrooms, most likely the death cap.

This will prove they consumed highly poisonous mushrooms. Other blood work can establish that a large dose of the mushrooms was consumed.

It will be interesting to see if the same mushrooms can be found in the food samples allegedly from the same meal that EP has provided to the police, or if matching spores are to be found on the food dehydrator.

 

[k-mac]

If the source is not mushrooms at all what presents as a similar poisoning?
edit Mushroom poisoning

I'm going to search for similar symptom producing edibles and non edibles..

where was it decided the mushrooms are not the cause??
I have not seen this anywhere.


only info I have seen is that it is unlikely she bought them in a store.

The mushrooms are the perceived source of the poisoning as things stand.

 

[Kemug]

It actually might be useful to allow EP to visit/allow her to give something to the ill victim. If she was caught with poisoned chocolates or similar, it would really simplify matters!

 

[JBowie]

Detectable levels of amatoxin (the deadly component of death caps) do not last long in the body. By the time symptoms of poisoning arise, levels of the poison have often fallen below the threshold of detection.

There are other ways to establish death cap mushroom poisoning, however.

I firmly believe that microscopic examination of samples of the deceased victim’s bowel contents will be found to contain the spores of amatoxin bearing mushrooms, most likely the death cap.

This will prove they consumed highly poisonous mushrooms. Other blood work can establish that a large dose of the mushrooms was consumed.

It will be interesting to see if the same mushrooms can be found in the food samples allegedly from the same meal that EP has provided to the police, or if matching spores are to be found on the food dehydrator.

Victim testing aside, my comment spoke to the amount of Beef Wellington that she apparently still had 'on hand' after the meal in question, to be able to provide samples for testing.

Frankly, I'm skeptical that she would have so much left days after the event. Had she spiked the meal with death caps, then why on earth would she have kept left overs in the fridge?

I'm now starting to wonder if indeed she made this dish as individual pies and maybe knew which were the spiked ones and only offered those to the victims to choose from.

Had she done that, then the leftovers would be free and clear to give to anyone for testing.

A lot doesn't make sense to me about this whole business.

 

[Amalgam]

Trying to figger how they arrived at the diagnosis in the first place?

The period of time between a meal containing mushrooms and the onset of symptoms, the nature of those symptoms, coupled with characteristic findings in diagnostic blood tests (including elevated liver enzymes) forms the basis for a diagnosis of amatoxin poisoning.

The poison itself is very short lived in the body, so testing for the poison itself isn’t useful. The poison can be gone by the time symptoms are present.

 

[Amalgam]

JBowie : I couldn’t agree more with all of that.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Is that a fact?

As someone who used to do financial investigative work over many decades the answer to your question is, yes! (JMO IMHO etc etc)

 

[kittythehare]

The period of time between a meal containing mushrooms and the onset of symptoms, the nature of those symptoms, coupled with characteristic findings in diagnostic blood tests (including elevated liver enzymes) forms the basis for a diagnosis of amatoxin poisoning.

The poison itself is very short lived in the body, so testing for the poison itself isn’t useful. The poison can be gone by the time symptoms are present.

It had to be more specific than that.

 

[kittythehare]

It actually might be useful to allow EP to visit/allow her to give something to the ill victim. If she was caught with poisoned chocolates or similar, it would really simplify matters!

it doesn't really work like that . There are ethical and medico legal issues involved.

 

[Amalgam]

It had to be more specific than that.

Due to the extremely short time that amatoxin persists in the body, I doubt it is more than what I described.

That said, the combination of symptom onset a certain duration after a meal containing mushrooms, along with the characteristic pathologies detectable with the right blood tests presents a cluster of timing, symptoms, lab results and clinical findings that is quite unique and points to a differential diagnosis of death cap mushroom syndrome.

I have some background knowledge and I’ve been researching it in medical journals for a few hours.

Edit : fixed typos

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

The teenage daughter who reportedly painted on the wall isn't implicated in poisoning is she?.

We would not be allowed to discuss anyone who isn't named as a suspect, most especially a child I imagine.

 

[kittythehare]

Due to the extremely short time that amatoxin persists in the body, I doubt it is more than what I described.

That said, the combination of symptom onset a certain duration after a meal containing mushrooms, along with the characteristic pathologies detectable with the right blood tests presents a cluster of timing, symptoms, lab results and clinical findings that is quite unique and points to a differential diagnosis of death cap mushroom syndrome.

I have some background knowledge and I’ve been researching it in medical journals for a few hours.

Edit : fixed typos

Can you provide links, please?
For context and fact verification.

 

[jepop]

We would not be allowed to discuss anyone who isn't named as a suspect, most especially a child I imagine.

I hope for the children's sake the exposure of these drawings doesn't cause them issues and affect their privacy. This case really has nothing to do with them. I hope the ghoulish innuendos and speculation over the wall graffitti or whatever people want to call it dies down. I don't think it's that odd for kids to play and draw and imagine what dead is - through imaginative play - or drawings - explore what dead means. They watch tv, they wonder what dead is. It is like bang bang with guns, bank robbers, cowboys and Indians. Imo the drawings look age appropriate and not weird, apart from the fact they are on a wall. Moo

 

[emirates1957]

BBM. This part makes no sense. I don't know how old the children are, but if they're old enough to go to the movies without parental supervision (did they drive, or is the cinema within walking distance?), they're old enough to scrape off their own mushrooms. Plus, I've only seen this dish in photos, and whether it was made as one giant piece or in individual pies, you'd really have to make a mess deconstructing it to remove the mushrooms. And if the poison is that strong, wouldn't it sort of get through the entire dish? Have the police spoken with the children? (I'm having trouble believing anything E has said, but this part really stands out for me.)

I guess you can’t make sense out of nonsense. A beef wellington is normally made from a piece of fillet steak (very expensive) and this was supposedly made to feed 7 people …. Why on earth would you add mushrooms knowing both children did not like them when you may have spent a lot of money on this particular cut. And totally agree the highly poisonous mushrooms would have leached into the meat. So the children have no symptoms (the smallest amount would affect a child). Also weird that ER is the only one who picked up a killer pack of dried mushrooms from a Mount Waverley shop whilst no other reports have been made.

 

[Tbone144]

My guess, and it's just a guess:

1. She dehydrated the death cap mushrooms and then ground them into a powder.
2. She used the powder to directly adulterated the four servings that her guests ate. Her portion (and the ones her children ate) never contained any poison.
3. She claims that the others picked their plates first, which is a little unusual in and of itself. Usually, you would carve everyone's slice right at the table because it's an impressive presentation.
4. She faked her illness at the hospital. Note that the doctors never kept her overnight and the cops claim that she didn't show any symptoms.

If she really did let others pick their plates I’m on board with the gravy idea. Especially if she made a show of letting them pick their plates first. Easy to skip the gravy but make a big deal about “oh no you go first, I’ll just take what’s left” and then let others put the gravy on and then chuck the gravy or wash it down the drain when dinner is over. Maybe they used more gravy than she expected and was hoping just to make them sick, or her concentrations ended up off.
IMOO